To staunch pro-lifers : Is abortion always wrong?, page 3

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reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:20 AM by FlyersFan

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
The child is not fighting for it's life in its preborn state. And you can not use a "study" to generalize everything. Each person will be different.

1 - The child is fighting for it's life. When the mother wishes to murder the preborn child, then that child's life is in danger. Every beat of the heart in the womb is a fight to stay alive.

View The Silent Scream . Video of children in the womb being murdered via abortion. The child definately fights for life. Fights the intense pain being inflicted upon him or her.

WARNING - DISTURBING VIDEO

2 - YOU said that I was making assumptions of how someone would feel after an abortion. The link to the statistics I gave shows it's not assumption - it's fact. Post Abortion Syndrome is a big problem.

[edit on 1/13/2009 by FlyersFan]

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:21 AM by 44soulslayer

reply to post by FlyersFan

Fetuses may do all that stuff, but what about a newly concieved fertilized ovum... ie when its at the stage of being 4 cells. What about then?

Everyone concedes that past a certain point, abortion is simply insane because the child could live by itself. The exact time point is contentious (18-22 weeks), but still...

I see no more evidence of humanity in a mitosing fertilized ovum than I do in any other cell of the human body.

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:22 AM by crmanager

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by FlyersFan

I'm not assuming anything, you may know two dozen people that have no problem with it but I know about the same amount who DO. Death is NOT unfair in this case.

Let's say I'm pregnant and know I can not raise the child properly, or that I know it would suffer pain it's whole life, OR that I am unprepared for raising the child. Let's say I was raped. That this was not a child that love created.

If you're going to create a life, you better as hell be able to nurture and take care of it. There are too many children in orphanages in this country alone, we don't need to keep putting more there just because some people think it's wrong to abort the child before it has to suffer. Before it has to ask the questions about WHY it had to be abandoned by it's own parents. Before it has to go through all the pain or struggle through life.

The bottom line is: it is the responsibility of the mother and the mother alone to decide whether or not she should keep the child and bring it into the living world. Not the states, not the governments and not religions.

It's not right for anyone to force anyone else to go through with having a child. Abortion is a choice and it's not wrong. It's a sad thing when you know that you can't take care of a child you are pregnant with, and it's a sad thing to know that it's better for you to go through with an abortion.

But it's an even sadder thing to bring a child into a life of poverty, or pain, or hardship.

I would bet my house that you are against the Death penalty.

Saying you would kill a child because you are not capable of raising it...
"Let's say I'm pregnant and know I can not raise the child properly" that quote is so you can't weasel out of the statement,

is about as insane a statement as I have ever heard.

Don't have sex if you don't want a kid. Why should the child, the possible inventer of the AIDS vaccine or the future peace negotiator of peace in the middle east, pay because you are inconvenienced?

I know you will respond with "It could be the next Hitler" so save it. That logic means kill ALL kids.

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:23 AM by Clearskies

reply to post by 44soulslayer

By the time that you know you're pregnant, USUALLY, it has gone past the 'cell' stage.
It's already got fingers and toes.

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:27 AM by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Clearskies
By the time that you know you're pregnant, USUALLY, it has gone past the 'cell' stage. It's already got fingers and toes.

And a heartbeat at the 18th day after conception.

Information here

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:27 AM by TasteTheMagick

reply to post by FlyersFan

I understand what you were saying with the link. And I also understand the point that you are trying to make. But what about postpartum depression and psychosis?

I'm not saying it's THE SAME, but I'm asking you to consider it for a moment. What about the psychological damage of knowing you were raped, forcibly impregnated and were forced to keep a souvenir of the event?

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:29 AM by 44soulslayer

reply to post by Clearskies

Ok lets assume I agree with you on that one.

What about the scenarios where the woman knows she's pregnant earlier... ie precisely the scenario when a rape victim undergoes a pregnancy test.

At that point, terminating a multiplying cell is hardly murdering the divine creation sent from heaven is it?

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:31 AM by FlyersFan

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
I'm asking you to consider it for a moment. What about the psychological damage of knowing you were raped, forcibly impregnated and were forced to keep a souvenir of the event?

Rape victims have mental anguish and physical problems, no doubt.
Compounding that anguish with pushing them to kill their unborn child will ADD to the problem.

As for 'keeping the souvenir' ... that's what adoption is for.
Nothing is kept.

In any event, the child does not deserve to be murdered because of how he or she was conceived. There are two human beings .. two separate heart beats .. to take care of. Of course being pregnant is hard on the rape victim, but killing the unborn child is hard AND there is the innocent child being dead to think about.

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:32 AM by TasteTheMagick

reply to post by crmanager

As a matter of fact: No I'm not against the death penalty. In fact, I don't think we kill people on death row nearly fast enough. I think it's insane to have someone you've condemned to death sitting in a cell for twenty years before you kill them. They're sick enough for you to have given them the death penalty: take them out back and shoot them.

My statements are not insane. Sometimes contraceptives don't work. No contraceptive works %100. Getting an abortion is not a punishment to anyone. Using abortion as a contraceptive is, in and of itself, an entirely different situation. But an abortion in the senses that I've been talking about is not wrong.

I'm not even going to bother with the childish "that child could be the next hitler" baloney because that is also ridiculous.

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:33 AM by FlyersFan

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
terminating a multiplying cell is hardly murdering the divine creation sent from heaven is it?

Yes, it is. And as far as bringing heaven into it, now you are getting into religious areas which is an arguement that can't be won or lost. It's too etherial.

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:34 AM by TasteTheMagick

reply to post by FlyersFan

I'm not saying to push either side of the argument on anyone. This whole time I've said that it is the sole choice and responsibility of the mother to decide.

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:35 AM by 44soulslayer

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Rape victims have mental anguish and physical problems, no doubt.
Compounding that anguish with pushing them to kill their unborn child will ADD to the problem.

No no no thats not what we are saying (I think).

Im saying that the option should always remain open to the woman. Nobody is pushing her to do anything.

If she wants to have the rape baby, let her go right ahead its none of my concern. Neither is it my concern if she wants to abort it.

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:37 AM by 44soulslayer

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
terminating a multiplying cell is hardly murdering the divine creation sent from heaven is it?

Yes, it is. And as far as bringing heaven into it, now you are getting into religious areas which is an arguement that can't be won or lost. It's too etherial.

Then how is terminating a mitosing adult cell (ie a cloned cell) any different? How is excising even a tumour different?

Precisely what is it that gives this ball of cells human rights? Is it the potential to become a human being? If so shouldn't you also be against the destruction of sperm and eggs...

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:39 AM by crmanager

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by crmanager

As a matter of fact: No I'm not against the death penalty. In fact, I don't think we kill people on death row nearly fast enough. I think it's insane to have someone you've condemned to death sitting in a cell for twenty years before you kill them. They're sick enough for you to have given them the death penalty: take them out back and shoot them.

My statements are not insane. Sometimes contraceptives don't work. No contraceptive works %100. Getting an abortion is not a punishment to anyone. Using abortion as a contraceptive is, in and of itself, an entirely different situation. But an abortion in the senses that I've been talking about is not wrong.

I'm not even going to bother with the childish "that child could be the next hitler" baloney because that is also ridiculous.

"Kill 'um all, let God sort them out." Sweet.

"getting an abortion is not punishment to anyone." Wow. I have nothing to say to that...statment.

The child who no longer exists might disagree with your "not punishment" statement. He/She would like a say just as you would.

I know, it is not a child it is a zygote; a collection of cells no different from a scab.

Sad. I wish you peace in your life that is obviously not there.

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:45 AM by TasteTheMagick

Originally posted by crmanager
The child who no longer exists might disagree with your "not punishment" statement. He/She would like a say just as you would.

I know, it is not a child it is a zygote; a collection of cells no different from a scab.

Sad. I wish you peace in your life that is obviously not there.

The child that no longer exists does not have an opinion. It is not developed enough to have an opinion. Any fight it gives in the womb is instinctual. Who are you to judge my life? What exactly do you mean "obviously not there"?

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:49 AM by mlmijyd

I may be wrong but don’t most of the objections come from Religious believers who seem to start spouting about this mythical God as some justification for their stance. I'd rather see justification based on what will happen to the baby following birth. It should be an individuals choice where they are capable of making it but I think early termination should also be encouraged.

I'm not a big fan of people saying it’s their right to have children, I think just because they can doesn't give them the right to bring a child into this world and then give them anything less than total love and attention. This is not what I see around me.

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 09:52 AM by FlyersFan

Originally posted by mlmijyd
don’t most of the objections come from Religious believers who seem to start spouting about this mythical God as some justification for their stance.

Have you seen any bible quotes here?
View the link I provided to 'The Silent Scream'.
View the information on Post Abortion Syndrome.

Then get back to us.

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 10:01 AM by crmanager

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick

Originally posted by crmanager
The child who no longer exists might disagree with your "not punishment" statement. He/She would like a say just as you would.

I know, it is not a child it is a zygote; a collection of cells no different from a scab.

Sad. I wish you peace in your life that is obviously not there.

The child that no longer exists does not have an opinion. It is not developed enough to have an opinion. Any fight it gives in the womb is instinctual. Who are you to judge my life? What exactly do you mean "obviously not there"?

You just keep digging your hole deeper.

"It is not developed enough to have an opinion." So are retarded children. So kill 'um?

"who are you to judge my life?" I am you. Who are you to judge the value of the unborn child?

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 10:01 AM by 44soulslayer

Flyers, Clearskies et al thanks for the debate so far.

Just for the record my personal views are that abortion is acceptable and indeed moral in some cases up until the point where the zygote becomes a fetus. Once a fetus can live on its own, aborting it is tantamount to murder. However before that point it is a (biologically speaking) parasitic organism, and is the material posession of the mother to do with it whatever she pleases.

I also believe in aborting a fetus that will almost certainly experience nothing but pain. In my personal estimation, if a soul is not born into one body, it will be born into another one. For me, conception is not a magical or divine act. Birth is the real magical act. Nobody would be moved to tears if they saw a cell dividing... but hearing the first cry of their baby is no doubt a moving thing.

If you folks would like to keep debating, perhaps we can get to the bottom of one thing:

Why is it exactly that you feel a zygote (say, an embryo around 4 weeks old) has human rights and must be protected against abortion? How is that ball of cells any different to any other ball of cells in the mother's body.

reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 10:06 AM by TasteTheMagick

reply to post by crmanager

Stating my beliefs is not "digging a hole". I never said to kill retarded children, their parents have made their choice to bring those children into the world, as was their right.

But before that child is born the mother has the CHOICE of keeping it and bringing it into the world or aborting it. It's hers and no one else can make that decision.

You have no right to judge me or my life, but you would if I was growing inside of you.