To staunch pro-lifers : Is abortion always wrong?, page 1
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 2 times
Topic started on 12-1-2009 @ 11:33 AM by 44soulslayer
This is an open invitation to debate for ardent 100% pro-lifers. I hope we can keep this civil


My question is:

Is abortion always wrong?

In my estimation, there are many cases when abortion is the right, moral choice. Of course, the line differs for many people and I am particularly interested in the views of totalitarian beliefs of pro-life (ie 100% abortion is always wrong).

If a test reveals that an unborn child has down's syndrome is it unethical to terminate it?

If a test reveals that an unborn child has EB is it unethical to terminate it?

Personally I would say that abortion is more moral in those cases as it eases suffering. I know the down's syndrome one is highly contraversial, and so I accept that each person draws the line at a different place.

However let's look at a truly rare case. A woman has just decided to keep conjoined (siamese) twins despite a test revealing that they will be born with two bodies and have only one head. The potential for suffering is immense, while the expected life span is negligible.

Read the full story here : news.bbc.co.uk...

So what do you ardent pro-lifers think of that decision? Is it really moral in your eyes if all that woman is doing is exposing her future child to a life of pointless misery and pain, only to die a short while afterwards.

Are the preservation of her religious beliefs more important than averting the suffering of a highly disfigured set of twins?

Personally I don't think her actions are moral. I think that her decision is selfish.

Let me know your opinion and your side of the coin.

Thanks,

Soul


reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 08:14 AM by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by FlyersFan


Adoption is the option?

The uncertainty and identity problems that can come about to a child that has been adopted is an unfair thing to force upon a child. Abortion doesn't occur "just to make life easier" on the mother. That's a pretty harsh judgment to make there don't you think?

Honestly I think I would feel more guilt if I brought a child into this world that I could not raise properly or that I knew would suffer and then threw it into the hands of a stranger. That's not right.


reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 08:25 AM by crmanager
Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Thank you all for your comments.

The point I am trying to make is essentially:

Is all life worth protecting?

If you knew your child would like a life full of uninterrupted pain and suffering, would it not be in their best interests to not be alive.

I guess the fundamental difference between your point of view and mine is twofold:

1. I believe that quality of life is more important than quantity. In some cases, this means that the quantity becomes zero = abortion.

2. I believe that the natural rights of the child are only gained automatically at birth. Prior to that, it is not a separate entity and is the material posession of the mother, the same as an ovum would be.


Now to refute my points of view, what would you state? Would you not have to refer to some religious text? In which case, why must your religious text and beliefs extend to others also?


You are not only anti-religious you are a eugenicist.

Forget religion...Who gets to decide what life is worthy of continuation? You?
A committee of governement officials/religious officials/doctors? Or just the parents?

Adolf Hitler believed that Jews were unworthy of continuation along with gays, trade unionists, mentally retarded, blacks,Poles, and pretty much anyone not Aryan.

Where is the line drawn?

Retarded? At what level of retardation? Dwarfs? Hydrosyphallics? WHat if it can be cured but it will take years of surgery?

I think it is wonderful that you have decided that some people are not worthy of life. It is a good thing your mamma did not make that choice huh?


reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 08:33 AM by 44soulslayer
reply to post by crmanager


*snip*
I said in my opening post lets keep things civil...

I don't take the label of being a eugenicist as overly offensive... there are worse things to be.

You are entirely contorting my entire position. If I were the parent of a child who would be born with, say EB, I would want to prevent my future child from suffering chronic, interminable pain. A normal life is out of the question.

Here is what EB results in :

The skin has two layers; the outer layer is called the epidermis and the inner layer the dermis. In normal individuals, there are "anchors" between the two layers that prevent them from moving independently from one another. In people born with EB, the two skin layers lack the anchors that hold them together, and any action that creates friction between the layers (like rubbing or pressure) will create blisters and painful sores. Sufferers of EB have compared the sores to third-degree burns.


Would you like to live your life with continuous, whole body third degree burns?

The difference between genocide and selective breeding is admittedly a fine line, but it is one worth exploring. What if we would select embryos to not have EB. Would you still be against that? If so, are your personal religious beliefs not incredibly selfish as they may result in a child having to live with unbearable pain their entire life.

My stances may be unacceptable to you, and you can liken me to Hitler as much as you want in an attempt to deflect from the real issue here- and that is the inexplicable and indefensible proposition that your religious beliefs are supreme and absolute, and must be imposed on all others.

Oh and by the way, only the mother can choose whether or not to have an abortion to cease the birth of a severely abnormal child.

[edit on 13-1-2009 by alien]


reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 08:45 AM by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by FlyersFan


I'm not assuming anything, you may know two dozen people that have no problem with it but I know about the same amount who DO. Death is NOT unfair in this case.

Let's say I'm pregnant and know I can not raise the child properly, or that I know it would suffer pain it's whole life, OR that I am unprepared for raising the child. Let's say I was raped. That this was not a child that love created.

If you're going to create a life, you better as hell be able to nurture and take care of it. There are too many children in orphanages in this country alone, we don't need to keep putting more there just because some people think it's wrong to abort the child before it has to suffer. Before it has to ask the questions about WHY it had to be abandoned by it's own parents. Before it has to go through all the pain or struggle through life.

The bottom line is: it is the responsibility of the mother and the mother alone to decide whether or not she should keep the child and bring it into the living world. Not the states, not the governments and not religions.

It's not right for anyone to force anyone else to go through with having a child. Abortion is a choice and it's not wrong. It's a sad thing when you know that you can't take care of a child you are pregnant with, and it's a sad thing to know that it's better for you to go through with an abortion.

But it's an even sadder thing to bring a child into a life of poverty, or pain, or hardship.


reply posted on 13-1-2009 @ 08:51 AM by Clearskies
reply to post by TasteTheMagick

Yeah, that's pretty much why I had my abortion. It wasn't love, but lust that put me in that position.
Also, I couldn't afford a child.
That's why I ended up in a mental hospital for 6 months.

You know adoption is different than an orphan, right? What I found out later, is that an 'open' adoption would've allowed me to keep up with the child. To keep a relationship. Now that child's dead.
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