Have All 3 Abrahamic Faiths Conspired to Defraud the Torah?, page 1
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Topic started on 11-1-2009 @ 10:46 PM by OmegaLogos
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

UPFRONT Personal Disclosure: The OP has and maintains an NON MILITANT Anti-Abrahamic Faiths position.The OP is an ex[communicated]-Christian of the Jehovah's Witness Denomination. The OP's Biases on this Topic are all now fully transparent and exposed!

TOPIC: "Have All 3 Abrahamic Faiths Conspired to Defraud the Torah?"

Topic Disambiguation: What the OP means by...
"Have"= the OP is asking a Question on whether...
..."all 3 Abrahamic Faiths"=Judaism,Christianity & Islam...
..."Conspired to Defraud"=Sin by their provable actions vs..
..."the Torah"= the 5 books by Moses.(Gen,Exo,Lev,Num,Deut).

Explanation:- OP's Primary Argument: (All scriptures are listed and linked under Bibliography below.)
"That the Torah is the ONLY Valid Religious Canon* allowed!"
*=a collection or list of books of the Bible accepted as genuine and inspired.

Primary Proof for the OP's Primary Argument: Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Secondary Proof for the OP's Primary Argument: Deut 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

OP's Secondary Argument:
"That the taint started with Joshua and never ended!"

Primary Proof for the OP's Secondary Argument: Joshua 24:26 (pls read all of Joshua chptr24 for full context especially as Joshua offers Israel to take after false GODS Joshua 24:14-15 therefor Joshua is condemned by Deut 12:29-31 specifically vrs 30 AND Deut 13:1-11 specifically vrs's 1-3) directly Contradicts the scriptures provided above.

Secondary Proof for the OP's Secondary Argument: The existence of all the other OT and NT books (apocrypha/deuterocanonicals included) as translated in the various versions of Bible (i.e. KJV,RSV,NIV,LITV,MKJV ect), The Judaic Oral Law and The Quoran/Koran, all being considered Canonical in nature (by their respective faiths), prove that the scriptures provided above are being broken repeatedly!

Are there any dissenting or contradictory Arguments and their respective Proofs:YES!
CAVEAT:-"What about the Prophet YHVH promised through Moses in the TORAH at Deut 18:15-22? Could he not of "added or taken away" from the law or at least be an author of the above Primary or Secondary Proofs for the OP's Secondary Argument?".

OP's reply: 1stly the OP has yet to fully ID this prophet but still fully contends that NO, he could not of "added or taken away" from the law specifically because of Deut 18:20-22 AND Deut 13:1-11 (specifically Deut 13:3 & 5) AND the existence of the Primary and Secondary Proofs (Canonical scriptures!) of the OP's Primary Argument.
2ndly Yes he could be an author, But must be vetted according to Deut 13:1-11 AND Deut 18:15-22. Example of a Failure is Ezekiel with his FALSE prophesy concerning the revival of Sodom and Gomorrah (Eze 16:55). At the moment the OP is leaning towards Ezra as who this prophet is but has not conclusively counted him IN or OUT as of yet! Please feel free to offer names and supply your proofs so as to DENY IGNORANCE!

FAQ: Is this really a conspiracy?
OP's response to FAQ: YES because those 2 scriptures are CONSTANTLY IGNORED/BROKEN DELIBERATELY or by OMISSION by THOSE WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER! i.e. The authors AND translators of the (non-Torah) OT and NT books, the compilers of the Judaic Oral law and the authors of the Quoran/Koran. This has led to False teachings and the leading astray of YHVH's flock as foretold by YHVH and Moses at Deut 31:16-18 and Deut 31:24-29.

Bibliography: Here is a list of all the references used in the above OP.
Personally the OP uses the KJV, but the OP is quite willing to use any version you care to Notify them of.
Also the OP uses the
freedictionary.com site for semantics only.
blueletterbible (KJV,RSV,NIV,+several other bible versions)
LITV site (+several other bible versions)
another LITV
Other biblical reference websites

Scriptures used:-
Deut 4:2
Deut 12:29-31
Deut 12:30
Deut 12:32
Deut 13:1-11
Deut 13:1-3
Deut 13:3 & 5
Deut 18:15-22
Deut 18:20-22
Deut 31:16-18
Deut 31:24-29
Joshua 24:1-33
Joshua 24:14-15
Joshua 24:26
Eze 16:55

Continued in next post.....


reply posted on 11-1-2009 @ 10:47 PM by OmegaLogos
Continued from above post...

Bibliography: continued...

WikiLink for
Sodom and Gomorrah.
WikiLink for Judaic Oral Law.
WikiLink for Muslims view on Moses.
Quote from 2nd Link "A.2 The Chapter of TaHa (20.9-97) specifically(20.60). Moses said to them (the magicians): “Woe to you! Do not invent lies about Allah, lest He destroy you by a punishment, and he who invents lies is doomed to fail”".


AND Here is a list of the references the OP uses below in the Thread RULES.

Exo 3:13-15
Deut 31:9 & 24


WikiLink for Maxims of Conversation
ATS/BTS Terms and Conditions

Thread RULES:
For the Purposes of this Thread YOU agree to the following A PRIORI conditions:...
[A Pure Given!] 1) That the Torah is infallible religious Cannon i.e... YHVH/GODS LAW!
[Exo 3:13-15] 2) That because of condition 1) that YHVH is Almighty GOD.
[Deut 31:9 & 24] 3) That because of conditions 1) and 2) that Moses is the sole author of the Torah.

You may Contend the following...
A) the version of the bible or Torah that the OP uses. Pls don't argue validity as the OP is fully aware of the KJV's taint. Just pick the version you want to use and the OP will comply.
B) the context of the scriptures that the OP provides. You must provide valid proof/s as to any contextual distortions the OP has made.
C) that the scriptures the OP provides are contradicted elsewhere in the Torah! You must provide valid proof/s as to the existence and validity of these scriptures if they exist.
D) the name of the prophet who fulfills the scriptural promise of one. You must provide valid proof/s as to why they directly fulfill those scriptures.
E) any provably invalid reference site provided by the OP.

You may NOT Contend any of the following, for purposes of this thread only!
A) any of the A PRIORI Conditions set out above.
B) that the OP,YHVH,Moses or the Torah are WRONG! UNLESS you provide valid Proof (i.e. Burden of Proof Required:-SEE BELOW!)
C) the validity of the blueletterbible website or any other Biblical or other website I provide as a reference UNLESS you can provide Credible proof that directly goes against their Validity as a reliable reference.

Acceptable Valid Burdens of Proof...
A) that the OP's proof/s was provided out of the context in which the Torah ment it. Professional Semantic reductionism required.
B) scripture from within the Torah that contradicts the OP's scriptural proof/s. Valid Torah scripture required.
C) Other proof/s of the promised prophet from elsewhere. Full and accurate historical account required.
D) 3 well vetted mainstream experts analysis and report's detailing the invalidity of such reference sites as credible and reliable.

ALL Maxims of Conversation and ATS/BTS terms and conditions shall apply.

In Closing Personal Disclosure: If you are going to believe in a Book of Laws then one had better uphold the least important of those laws as much as one upholds the most important laws! OR what's the point at all? Hypocrisy? maybe! Conspiracy? Definitely!


reply posted on 12-1-2009 @ 02:26 AM by OmegaLogos
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Thanks notyme67. I'm glad you like it. Please star and flag as you see fit. Oh and btw..."You need a nice big open can of worms if you want to catch some big fish!".

Now Thanks also to justamomma for their input. 1stly justamomma replies and I quote "The people? depends." and I ask in response "Depends on What?".
2ndly justamomma then states and again I quote "Kind of a pretty broad question if you ask me."...And I agree that yes it is a broad question ONLY because its an extremely large population and varying demographically broadbased Conspiracy NUMBERING IN THE BILLIONS! Please reread the OP concerning FAQ and then please, would you care to refute(proof required..see thread rules) or endorse the OP's position?
3rdly justamomma then forwards this information and I quote "I know that G.d is perfectly capable of opening the door of understanding outside the Torah and the Tanakh, so I trust Him to be able to discern who is ready to receive their teachings and where they should receive them from."....And I inquire "How Exactly Do You Know This Is So?" :?: Please provide credible evidence to back up these extraordinary claims!
4th and finally justamomma tests the bounds of the OP
Thread Rules! with their posting and I quote "But in all honesty.... the Torah, though I am in the knowledge learning process to convert to Judaism, was not given to a man named Moses on a mountain.

It was written by Scribes while in Babylonian captivity... so, well... ya get my point. I know G.d and though He uses the Scriptures to confirm things that He teaches me, that is not where the knowlege comes from. It comes from Him."...And I gently remind them to please reread the OP concerning the RULES and I quote the OP here for convenience..."For the Purposes of this Thread YOU agree to the following A PRIORI conditions:...
[A Pure Given!] 1) That the Torah is infallible religious Cannon i.e... YHVH/GODS LAW!
[Exo 3:13-15] 2) That because of condition 1) that YHVH is Almighty GOD.
[Deut 31:9 & 24] 3) That because of conditions 1) and 2) that Moses is the sole author of the Torah."
AND...
"You may NOT Contend any of the following, for purposes of this thread only!
A) any of the A PRIORI Conditions set out above."

Personal Disclosure: Once again thanks for partaking in my thread.

Edited to fix emoticon problem.

[edit on 12-1-2009 by OmegaLogos]


reply posted on 29-1-2009 @ 11:14 AM by one_man24
reply to post by OmegaLogos



I read all of joshua 24, and Joshua is not telling them to follow other gods. He tells them all that God has done for them, what God has to say about it, then tells them to serve the Lord. He then tells them that if they won't serve the Lord, serve who they like, but as for he and his house, they will serve the one, the only, Lord. Joshua gave them all the reasons they should serve the true God, not false idols, and then basically said "if you guys want to be stupid, be stupid, but not me. I know our past and His might, and I get it. So my mind is already made up." After this, everyone says "God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods", showing that they got what Joshua was saying.


reply posted on 1-8-2011 @ 12:11 PM by OmegaLogos
reply to post by OmegaLogos



Explanation: Hmmmm?

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