Originally posted by Merigold

I do so hope that getting your silver spoon taken away doesn't ruin your great nation - America is so much more then a Big Mac and 300 channels isn't she?

Well.. she used to be. I suspect that she will be again (minus the growing pains).

my college professor told me this

Y'know, back in outer space we used to drink -
a lot We used to take all kinds of kick-ass drugs
And showed blatant disrespect for any authority figures
Little did we know we were undermining our entire value system...







Later, as we flew through deep space
Ritually disemboweling our victims
The navigator informed us that we
Attacked the wrong planet.

[edit on 12-1-2009 by Jerry McDaniel]

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
As you can see from the graph, three waves of foreclosures were engineered using the central bank.

You think it might be more reasonable to say that the existence of the Federal Reserve itself perhaps facilitated these cycles? That they engineered economic overheating to produce bubbles and busts, and ultimately foreclosures, through the use of its inflationary powers is kind of inconsistent thinking. I believe your graph is correct, however you mistake the perpetrators. While you believe this corporate institution is to be blamed, it's more likely that these problems stem from bad government policy and financial irresponsibility on the part of consumers, and ultimately a deficiency in the Federal Reserve to follow all the actions of these erratic players, and apply policy both timely and appropriately. They can't do everything. They have to balance domestic interest rates against foreign exchange rates.

I would like to add that the only way America can continue on financially the way it is now is if there is some kind of expectation by foreign entities of an American resurgence in the future. Foreign governments and corporations were still buying U.S. treasuries when they were teetering on negative. In fact, they bought MORE than ever before! However, all recessions must be short term. Historically, we could rebound from recessions because we were the supreme military power on the planet, and we had vast control of oil. But with our sphere of political influence waning, and our economic power being matched by a bunch of new and emerging economies, notably China and India, we can't dig ourselves out like we did after the Great Depression and after the 80's.

Anyway, a devaluation of the U.S. dollar isn't going to spell poverty and destruction, or even break up the Constitution of the country. We'll just place more emphasis on the capital we are all currently ignoring. I mean, we are home to Microsoft after all. If only something just as innovative would be realized once again.

As soon as the world gets tired of all these inevitable recessions that come with dependency on the U.S. economy, and as soon as they realize the U.S. is overextended financially and militarily, there should be no problem finding a new global currency standard. While such a change would be devastating for the current consumer-based economy that we all a part of, and even the producer-based economies of foreign countries, which feed us, it will only put more emphasis on creative capital than ever before. We should be confident in having the best scientists, weapons technologists, and manufacturing specialists on the planet.

War isn't an option because we're extremely overextended both financially and in our political presence. Creativity is the next best bet. Something real cool should emerge, the least of obvious being alternative energy production. This century is going to be very interesting considering that oil will be a fantasy, only read about in books, before most of us die. Just think of something in the scope of Microsoft but dealing with new technology, such as flying cars, or a source of unexpendable wirelessly transmitted electricity.

[edit on 12-1-2009 by cognoscente]

Originally posted by cognoscente

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
As you can see from the graph, three waves of foreclosures were engineered using the central bank.

You think it might be more reasonable to say ... That they engineered economic overheating to produce bubbles and busts, and ultimately foreclosures...

If you give a drug addict drugs what are the chances that he will use it and ask for more?

Of course I believe that the foreclosure waves were engineered. They were deliberertly engineered to bring about the end of the out of control consumption and the pagan worship to the false god - mammon. The Federal reserve notes might as well have said, "In mammon we trust". The US debt has been the biggest con job and ponzi scheme ever to hit the planet.

I believe your graph is correct, however you mistake the perpetrators. While you believe this corporate institution is to be blamed, it's more likely that these problems stem from bad government policy and financial irresponsibility on the part of consumers, and ultimately a deficiency in the Federal Reserve to follow all the actions of these irresponsible players, and apply policy appropriately.

Sure blame the victim.

I would like to add that the only way America can continue on financially the way it is now is if there is some kind expected resurgence in the future. Foreign governments and corporations were still buying U.S. treasuries when it was teetering on negative. In fact, they bought MORE than ever before!

An expected outcome. They don't want to lose what they have or change the status quo.

However, all recessions must be short term. Anyway, a devaluation of the U.S. dollar isn't going to spell poverty and destruction, or even break up the Constitution of the country. We'll just place more emphasis on the capital we are all currently ignoring. I mean, we are home to Microsoft after all. If only something just as innovative would be realized once again.

As soon as the world gets tired of all these inevitable recessions that come with dependency on the U.S. economy, and as soon as they realize the U.S. is overextended financially and militarily, there should be no problem finding a new global currency standard. While such a change would be devastating for the current consumer-based economy that we all a part of, it will only put more emphasis on creative capital than ever before. We do have the best scientists, weapons technologists, and manufacturing specialists on the planet.

War isn't an option because we're extremely overextended both financially and in our political presence. Creativity is the next best bet. Something real cool should emerge, the least of obvious being alternative energy production. This century is going to be very interesting considering that oil will be a fantasy, only read about in books, before most of us die. Just think of something in the scope of Microsoft but dealing with new technology, such as flying cars, or a source of unexpendable wirelessly transmitted electricity.

For innovation to work there must be a simplification of the system. Everything is way to complex, too many people have thier hands in the pie.

I don't think they'll go quietly do you?

[edit on 12-1-2009 by In nothing we trust]

A wild card in this implosion scenario hasn't been discussed...

When USA went into depression in the 30's, the citizens mostly tightened their belts and endured. They did march on Washington, vote the perceived Perps out of Office, rumbled about going Communist or Fascist, but remained basically civilized through it all.

Now you have a couple of generations who are trained killers. Their play has been shooting people and monsters in an evermore realistic cyberworld. Instead of suffering through the coming depression, they will abandon the facade of civility and destroy each other.

The USA is different from most other nations of the world in the high levels of privately owned guns, so its more vulnerable than many. Even in the 3rd world Internet cafe's have afforded an opportunity to condition a generation in reflexive killing.

Our food distribution system is not robust. A collapse of the dollar would mean that store shelves would empty overnight and never be refilled. Competition has meant that most food stuffs come from a few places that are long distances from the consumers.

Utilities such as water, electricity, gas, oil would cease to be available as the few technicians that insure their operation abandoned their posts to save themselves
.
Cities would likely be quarantined early on and allowed to die.

If countries like Iran have exercised their own wild card and release Biological agents in the USA and Israel, efforts to reestablish/maintain order wouldn't have the slightest chance of success.
Crop failure would insure that the food supply wouldn't recover. The dependence on fuel fertilizer and safety from roving bands in search of food would prevent food from being grown.

While careful, orderly rebuilding could make recovery possible after a collapse of the dollar, instead what is left will be squandered.

Famine, disease and fighting over remaining resources would mean the the population could fall by 90% within 3 or 4 years, IMO.

That seems to me to mean "The United States ceasing to exist within 3 years"

Originally posted by UMayBRite!
A wild card in this implosion scenario hasn't been discussed...

When USA went into depression in the 30's, the citizens mostly tightened their belts and endured. They did march on Washington, vote the perceived Perps out of Office, rumbled about going Communist or Fascist, but remained basically civilized through it all.

Now you have a couple of generations who are trained killers. Their play has been shooting people and monsters in an evermore realistic cyberworld. Instead of suffering through the coming depression, they will abandon the facade of civility and destroy each other.

Famine, disease and fighting over remaining resources would mean the the population could fall by 90% within 3 or 4 years, IMO.

That seems to me to mean "The United States ceasing to exist within 3 years"

This is a probable outcome upon the disintigration of the system. This is part of the reason why the established order is interested in shipping America's youth off to foriegn wars. The other part of the reason is to sit on top of the worlds oil reserves and control the persian gulf. Finger on the tap.

As the central government fails the country will likely fractionalize into areas of similar thinking people. Ever wonder why there are 12 regional central banks? They may have already envisioned this and pre-planned the fractionalization accordingly.

A good case study would be to look at what happened to the USSR after it failed. We are witnessing regional conflicts in the former USSR over resources. One thing that we did not witness in the former ussr was the implementation of martial law to restore order. Probably because they were just abandoning that system of government and just didn't feel like playing anymore.

It is likely that the US military would seize control through martial law in an attempt to keep the union of states from dissolving. The central government spent a good deal of money on local law enforcement upgrades just after 9/11. They have also had the opportunity in Iraq and Afghanistan to fight against small groups of militants and militia. They may face the same kind of obsticles and adversaries here in the US homeland as they attempt to maintain control over thier own citizens.

[edit on 12-1-2009 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by UMayBRite!
A wild card in this implosion scenario hasn't been discussed...

The USA is different from most other nations of the world in the high levels of privately owned guns, so its more vulnerable than many

Our food distribution system is not robust. A collapse of the dollar would mean that store shelves would empty overnight and never be refilled. Competition has meant that most food stuffs come from a few places that are long distances from the consumers.

Utilities such as water, electricity, gas, oil would cease to be available as the few technicians that insure their operation abandoned their posts to save themselves
.
Cities would likely be quarantined early on and allowed to die.

If countries like Iran have exercised their own wild card and release Biological agents in the USA and Israel, efforts to reestablish/maintain order wouldn't have the slightest chance of success.

Crop failure would insure that the food supply wouldn't recover. The dependence on fuel fertilizer and safety from roving bands in search of food would prevent food from being grown.

While careful, orderly rebuilding could make recovery possible after a collapse of the dollar, instead what is left will be squandered.

Famine, disease and fighting over remaining resources would mean the the population could fall by 90% within 3 or 4 years, IMO.

That seems to me to mean "The United States ceasing to exist within 3 years"

This is a grim but not unrealistic coming scenario. If it happens this way, the aging middle class will be the first to go. They are less capable of defending themselves and more susceptible to disease and exposure. They usually have homes and lots of sellable items. I don't know how much that means when food is more valuable than jewellery.

I'm in Canada. A lot colder than most of the US, but a tenth of the population, no shortage of oil, fresh water, considerable seasonal agriculture, and not a lot of guns. We depend on the US as the end user for most of what we produce. Some advantages and some disadvantages in survival terms.

But we do have a 3000 mile border that is no problem crossing.
The only other country bordering the US is Mexico which is similarly blessed with natural resources and has better food growing capacity. Both may maintain some semblance of order when and if the US reverts to anarchy as you describe.

I guess it's goodbye Internet too.


Mike F

Originally posted by mmiichael
I'm in Canada. A lot colder than most of the US, but a tenth of the population, no shortage of oil, fresh water, considerable seasonal agriculture, and not a lot of guns.

But we do have a 3000 mile border that is no problem crossing.
The only other country bordering the US is Mexico which is similarly blessed with natural resources and has better food growing capacity. Both may maintain some semblance of order when and if the US reverts to anarchy as you describe.

It is likely that both Canada and Mexico will see an influx of American refugees fleeing from the anarchy.

It is likely that the military will not be overly interested in chasing militia members through the backwoods of Michigan and Montana, but will choose to isolate these areas and cut off the major transit and communication routes. I expect that the major metropolitan areas (LA, New York, Miami, Philidelphia, Houston, Chicago, Detroit) will expierience the worst breakdown and see the brunt of the fighting.

[edit on 12-1-2009 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

It is likely that both Canada and Mexico will see an influx of American refugees fleeing from the anarchy.

It is likely that the military will not be overly interested in chasing militia members through the backwoods of Michigan and Montana, but will choose to isolate these areas and cut off the major transit and communication routes. I expect that the major metropolitan areas (LA, New York, Miami, Philidelphia, Houston, Chicago, Detroit) will expierience the worst breakdown and see the brunt of the fighting.

I think a widespread collapse will not be quite as accelerated as discussed, but am prepared for the worst. Rats are known to leave sinking ships, and I think in the very near future you'll see a lot of permanent emigration of those with tangible assets to the Caribbean, South America, Europe, and yes - Canada and Mexico.

Canada is problematic. On paper an autonomous nation, but with an economy fully integrated with the US. What will happen to the Canadian dollar? Will trade agreements, ownership of property and resources, etc - be honoured and enforced?

Even a collapsed Russia tried to maintain some seblance of legal order.
Note the KGB and Mob took over there as the only ones able to organize and enforce anything resembling order.

No one has ever suggested the anyone in the US nuking key problem areas. Real Doomsday stuff, but think about NYC taken out by Washington or some military base in the West.

China will sit on the sideline watching it all happen, calculating how they can pick up the pieces. Their first move will be taking Japan and Korea.

And what happens in Israel? Good question.


Mike F

Originally posted by mmiichael
I think in the very near future you'll see a lot of permanent emigration of those with tangible assets to the Caribbean, South America, Europe, and yes - Canada and Mexico.

Yes I imagine the richest Americans who sold us out to foriegn countries would be the first to abandon the homeland, leaving behind whatever real property they have here to be nationalized or destroyed.

No one has ever suggested the anyone in the US nuking key problem areas. Real Doomsday stuff, but think about NYC taken out by Washington or some military base in the West.

I could see it happening. In a desperate attempt to quell rising domestic unrest and anarchy it is not out of the question that those in power would use nuclear weapons on specfic hot spots in the country. Especially if it looked like weapons of mass destruction or large stores of conventional weapons might fall into the hands of anarchists or rebel forces.

It's really not as far fetched as it' sounds. Look at the history of the fall of the roman republic.

[edit on 13-1-2009 by In nothing we trust]

Most of us have heard the phrase: "too big to fail"...in this world the United States of America is too big to fail, like it or not.

Originally posted by jped62
Most of us have heard the phrase: "too big to fail"...in this world the United States of America is too big to fail, like it or not.

Why do you think so?

Feel free to present evidence to support your claim.

It would be pointless to present 'evidence' to anyone so clearly wanting our country to fail. Those who have nothing but doom to offer will see only the down side, like the glass being half empty. If anything drags the US into the ground, it will be the result of November's elections.

Originally posted by jped62
It would be pointless to present 'evidence' to anyone so clearly wanting our country to fail. Those who have nothing but doom to offer will see only the down side, like the glass being half empty. If anything drags the US into the ground, it will be the result of November's elections.

You have NO solid evidance except for what they have told you. They have told you that the US is too big to fail and you believe it.

It's not that I want the US to fail, I am telling you what I see is happening. It is your choice whether or not you choose to believe it or not. The US will fail within 3 years. I have presented my argument and evidence, you have not.

[edit on 13-1-2009 by In nothing we trust]

I admire your attempt to convince others, yet 'evidence' is always filtered by what one wants to see.

A picture (avatar) is worth a thousand words...