Originally posted by Res Ipsa
Infolurker's post should end the debate and close this thread.
It says it all.
...but it won't, will it?
When did we start keeping tabs on war crimes? What are war crimes?
We, the U.S.A. napalmed the hell out of Japan prior to nukeing them. No military targeting, just dropped fire bomb after fire bomb on their cities. We took 80,000 plus men, women, and children...burning them alive.
War is War. Does time make these "war crimes" acceptable? Does the fact that it had a nice justifiable lable "World War II" make it acceptable?
War actually has improved because of tech. and we don't have to just wipe out everyone anymore...could you imagine if you were watching the "Gaza feed" that many of us are watching, and you saw a fleet of Israli bombers dropping tons and tons of napalm? You guys would go ape sheet.

If people like Infolurker got people to gather up behind Propaganda movies we have seen 1000 times before we would be in deep darkness.

To answer your country´s mass murder in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, i can only say: How intelligent was we then and how intelligent are we now. If you are a christian you should know that every life is precious and no one is expendable.

The napalm thing:

People did went ape sh.. when you dropped the napalm, remember the student revolt?

Best regards.

Loke.

I see a pic of some kids writing on bombs... that much I will give you.... how about the news coverage showing the glee as the children are wishing the death of civilians... better yet how about let's show the kids writing to the civilians they hate so much an want to kill.. got one of those?

Where's the children videos of of seething hatred for Muslims or Arabs or "insert your hated ethnic group here" and such... give me a good American, British, Israeli, or other Western child spokesman preaching hatred to children and such... in other words "give us something good". Is there any equivalent? I would truly be interested if there are any but I think in the US they are to busy trying to sexualize our children to worry about hating someone else. An Israeli or American "death sesame street" from public TV or something. A good ole Nazi-like introduction for toddlers from the airwaves to murder some people.

I am open to examples... I want to see it, I really do want to see if there is something out there like that.. you know.. Barney with an AK talking about executing, murdering and martyring and such. (One really on the airwaves, I am sure someone will get around to making some of these soon for propaganda but do we have any in existence now used today?)

I just do not believe that there will ever be peace when children are taught not only to hate but to actually kill themselves in the process. How can there be?

Feel free to post.



[edit on 11-1-2009 by infolurker]

Originally posted by Loke.
To answer your country´s mass murder in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, i can only say: How intelligent was we then and how intelligent are we now. If you are a christian you should know that every life is precious and no one is expendable.

The napalm thing:

People did went ape sh.. when you dropped the napalm, remember the student revolt?

Best regards.
Loke.

Firebombing of Japan killed more than the nukes. The nukes prevented millions of deaths compared to an all out invasion. Remember, Japan was ready to fight to the death, and suicide tactics were a part of their nature then.

Both sides of the war carpet bombed whole towns to hit just one building, Germans launched V2 rockets on general population centers as a psychological tool.

Today we see once again countries and political/religious groups that view life as cheap. Your Idea of war crimes are based on how well war technology works, and yes it is much better than carpet bombing, but it still kills civilians.

Countries that use technology to limit civilian deaths are somewhat different than countries that use civilian deaths as a tool in war.

Darfur has more dead each day than this whole event. Not only are the men killed and the women raped to cause a race of people to disappear, but a million have starved to death or died from sickness.

The day Israel launched its attacks on the 27th. A suicide bomber kills 30 and wounds 100s, on Dec 11, 50 to 60 died once again with 100s more injured to a bomber. 300 to 500 per month are being killed in Iraq and many are children. When the sun comes up in villages sit 7 to 10 headless village leaders, a common occurrence. If you can’t kill a man you do not like then kill his family, another common occurrence.

How do you deal with people that are willing to kill themselves if it kills you too, or see the death of innocence people as part of their primary objective?

If any of this was Israel's objective Gaza would have 100,000s dead. If America stopped helping Israel, there will be a death of a nation to rival the atrocities in Darfur. 70,000 suicide bombers from the universities of Iran would be just a small start.



[edit on 11-1-2009 by Xtrozero]

So, still no explanation or response about Israel committing war crimes...

Anyone?

Seriously, I'd love to see one pro-Israel poster state exactly why it is acceptable for Israel to break international law.

As for indoctrination, this is a propaganda war, and I expect to see such BS.

Still doesn't explain how Israel is supported by so many for committing war crimes.

Please, I really want to see one convincing argument that makes you think Israel is correct in what they are doing.

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Seriously, I'd love to see one pro-Israel poster state exactly why it is acceptable for Israel to break international law.

Can you name any "War Crimes"? Might be best for you to start with what the world is charging them with.

Interesting how much pain and anguish occur in the name of a supreme being and little patches of desert.

Two things come out of the middle east: Oil and death.

Lets try to get a handle on the problems in our own respective countries. Only then would we even be remotely qualified to advise them on theirs.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
So, still no explanation or response about Israel committing war crimes...

Anyone?

Seriously, I'd love to see one pro-Israel poster state exactly why it is acceptable for Israel to break international law.

As for indoctrination, this is a propaganda war, and I expect to see such BS.

Still doesn't explain how Israel is supported by so many for committing war crimes.

Please, I really want to see one convincing argument that makes you think Israel is correct in what they are doing.

One question though.... what would YOU have be done to straighten the situation out? I would really like to see your solution.

I have had a few good discussions on possibilities before and will post below but really, what is the answer..... below is what came out of some previous discussions both at work at ATS threads... it may not be the best answer or feasible but here it is:

OK, The Summary

Side A (those in charge) wants nothing short of side B leaving / dieing.
Side B isn't leaving and has a strong military to make sure that isn't happening.

Challenge #1 - How do you set up a successful permanent peace?

Side A cannot control the terrorist organizations since it is those organizations that have true control over the people and these terrorist organizations will never let there be peace unless side B is gone.

Side B cannot truly have a peace if there is no end to side A attacks, it must respond militarily sooner or later and has, will, and will continue.

How do you fix this problem that must be fixed before going further?

The only solution that we discussed that was even close to feasible (Besides either side A or B killed, defeated, or moved) was a marshal plan implemented by a neutral authority (and were not talking about the joke UN which would do nothing but steal money and let the violence continue) to come in, establish order and infrastructure, and make these organizations illegal and root out the terrorists groups as was done with the Nazis after WW2.

Complete infrastructure renewal and economic security is a must or no plan will work with half the population without an income. So can this be done is my first question. How to root out terrorism (it has to go or everything else is futile... also, economic security must come or everything else is futile).

This is a big challenge and would have to be done with someone like Jordan or Egypt as the Side A would not accept any Western temporary government and we would have to have an authority that could be acceptable to the Side A "non-terrorist group affiliation" portion of the population who truly wants to live in peace going forward.

This "Authority" would have to also be truly committed to taking out the terrorist organizations head on (no wink, nod, launch some rockets and we will shrug our shoulders kind of thing if you know what I mean).

So given that this was possible, and say Jordan or Egypt (for example) took care of business and established economic and physical security (yes with western financial backing) and Palestinians would actually have hope of a normal life, I assume they may not want the terrorist back to screw it all up again and you could actually have a lasting peace.

But, this will not work without economic security on and physical security.


Just a thought... I look forward to other feasible possibilities.






[edit on 11-1-2009 by infolurker]

The only thing i get from israel are potatoes...so it shouldnt be too hard for me to stop buying their goods...

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I wonder if it will make many pro-israel ATS members think.

I'm less anti-Israel then anti-Hamas .. so I'll tell ya' what I think.
I think that perhaps I'll go looking for Israeli goods to buy so as to
show my support for the defensive measures that they have had to
take against the continual agression that Hamas has put them through.