Enlightenment. What is it and how do we know when we have achieved it?

Originally posted by EvilTwin666

you will never become self aware if you follow this foolish talk but you will find your way to the nearest mental hospital


[edit on 24-3-2009 by EvilTwin666]

All the Buddhas of all the ages have been telling you a very simple fact: Be -- don't try to become. Within these two words, be and becoming, your whole life is contained. Being is enlightenment, becoming is ignorance.

Originally posted by EvilTwin666
reply to post by Mr Green

 

what a load of new age propaganda,

As stated the search for enlightenment goes back even pre Buddha, it is probably to be found around 60,000 or 70,000 years ago with the first Shamans, who were on the path but took a little detour just before reaching the source.

its laughable looking at some of the comment people have been leaving,

I am glad you have found Joy, that is the secret and all encompassing aim, when no matter what manifests, what is happening in your life, either physically or externally you are still full of Joy and Love.

When fully enlightened you can laugh at all things that happen to you as you see them as they really are. Constant happiness and love for all.

I have experienced quite prolonged times of this, lets say more than seconds or just sitting, but never through an entire day to next of this, and never been able to make it 24/7 but one day, as others have and continue to do it is my aim.

illuminati means enlightened ones

I know the Buddhist society should sue the Bankers for copyright breach don't you think?

so can you really vision george bush meditating

Apparently he did didn't he ever night pray and hear voices from a God who told him to Blow up innocent civilians, you see when not trained right, and with an experienced Guide as you say you can become insane.

and shaking flowers,

Daisy cutters I think they were called yes, that though can never be found in true meditation, that is the desire to do that, magik yep, or controlled Ego/Will from but not true meditation as many of the posts have pointed out already.

you've been sold a load of nonsense

No one sold me anything I looked, searched and had to ask lot's of times, prove my commitment and worth before getting many teachings, with no money involved

and your eating it up like a bunch of fools.

You are what you eat as they say, and certainly this food has been bitter and hard to swallow sometimes! the ego does not want to be controlled or subjegated. In fact you bring up an ancient Zen Teaching!

It's Like eating a Ball of hot iron

When you find the truth it is difficult at first, as in the ball of hot iron, you cant swallow it it will burn you stomach, you cant keep it in your mouth, it is too hot, but you cant spit it out either as it is to important to lose. This is how the Ego and mind react to very profound truths, as you know to integrate them fully it means you cant be fake anymore, and have to make really massive changes in your life and behaviour.

you will never become self aware if you follow this foolish talk

Um well I know I have! so how can you speak for my experience? how many thoughts have you actually seen arise, really properly?

How many times have you experienced no subject or object?

How many times have you known your true motivation before you speak or act?

How many times have you breathed whilst reading this?

Im getting more self aware all the time thank you, and others have for millenia and continue to do so daily.

but you will find your way to the nearest mental hospital

Certain teachings and yogic practises can send you a bit loopy within the constraint's of modern society, unless you are able, ready and do the ground work first, this is why a Teacher who has experienced this path themselves is needed. This is why many of the traditions are passed on only orally and kept secret. The Kundalini texts being released have done much harm indeed, however teachers are there and if done properly the opposite is achieved, in fact the madness of the illusion and dream state is worn away day by day.

I know this too from much experience working within the Mental Health Field myself

and before any one jumps on me then i would tell you to take a good look at what you have been writing and ask yourself is this normal,

I suppose it depends on what country, society and epoch you base the norm on?

Why would I want to be normal anyway?

an idealism that has no facts that is completely unfounded.

Its a science and way of life, with many facts, and has been repeated many millions of times by humans for Millenia. And that's the crux every thing is Ideal and perfect already its only our greed, desire and anger or ego's, "this" and "that" that make us think otherwise

You are feeding off each other when you should be seeking psychiatric help

Discussing is not feeding, and no one has trolled yet on this thread.

Who would I seek this help from Myself?

Just to be sure if I approached an old colluege and said listen I am interested in finding out how my mind works, controlling it, and meditating, do you think I need to get referred or sectioned, get Bio Chems done?

What do you think their answer would be?

It certainly is not going to be "yep go to ward 4 with all the NLP guys, hypnotists, therapists, psychiatrists, psychologists and advertising men" is it?

Kind Regards,

Elf

[edit on 24-3-2009 by MischeviousElf]

reply to post by MischeviousElf

"When you find the truth it is difficult at first, as in the ball of hot iron, you cant swallow it it will burn you stomach, you cant keep it in your mouth, it is too hot, but you cant spit it out either as it is to important to lose. This is how the Ego and mind react to very profound truths, as you know to integrate them fully it means you cant be fake anymore, and have to make really massive changes in your life and behaviour."

One of the best descriptions of receiving truth I have ever heard. That's why everyone is afraid of taking the red pill. Once you "know" its a lot harder to fake it. With truth comes responsibility. Well said Elf, you are always dead on.

reply to post by awaken the source


Good point, often lost by most even advanced practitioners,

Infact most meditations are aimed at trying to reach "no thought" or single pointedness of concentration, it is only the path that potentially leads to Enlightenment in this lifetime Mahamudra and Samantha within it:

In terms of the meditation of tranquillity (samatha), the Mahamudra teachings say that when we can be with whatever we are experiencing, the mind will become tranquil. We do not cultivate positive thoughts and emotions and we do not reject negative thoughts and emotions during meditation. We are not meditating when we are able to suppress thoughts and emotions, we are meditating when we can be with and be aware of those thoughts and emotions as they occur. Thoughts and emotions are not the problem, they are not the enemy. The enemy is lack of awareness, lack of presence.

The mind becomes settled when one is not judging what arises in it, pushing certain things out of the mind and hanging onto certain other things. Thinking, 'I want this, I desire this. I had such a quiet meditation. That was so good, I want it again.' Or thinking, 'I wasted my time. The whole time I was sitting, the only thing I could think of was how pissed off I was.' The mind is constantly judging and evaluating, thinking these are good thoughts, these are nice emotions, I should actually have more of and those things etcetera, etcetera. Mahamudra teachings say that we should not be doing that, because in terms of Path Mahamudra, we will not find our true condition by getting involved in this kind of divisive thinking. Spiritual realisation does not come from rejection or acceptance, it comes from being.

Venerable Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche Kagyu Tradition Buddhism

Mindfulness is full awareness and mixed with insight meditation as well has & can with a teacher, bring full enlightenment!

Kind regards,

Elf

I have followed this thread and felt I had to say EvilTwin is very wrong in what hes saying. Very wrong to put that type of information about for others to read. There is a lot of wisdom in here I dont want his post to make people think the other posts on meditation are wrong. He has attacked the posters very badly and its not right. Attacking like that seems rare in this board I had to join to say about it. Why suddenly come on now and post all are mad people its not right.

reply to post by Venus014


Hello Venus,

Well said and welcome to ATS.

You might find this interesting to in the Media section: Enlightenment

There is some good Media, books, video's and guides on there on these topics have a look, I will put some more up soon to.

Looking forward to speaking with you on here and there.

Love and Light

Elf.

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Hello

Thank you so much for that link. Im looking to start some sort of meditation mainly from reading all the posts, but it seems mistakes can be made. Your video titled meditation the Buddhist way has caught my eye, is that one of the oldest forms of meditation will that make it more safe than other new forms do you think.
There are lots of threads i have read where people seem to go down wrong paths or get caught in spirit worlds i want to stay away from that side.
I dont know what enlightenment is but I want to find it. Thank you.

reply to post by Venus014


Venus that is a PDF downloadable document for you. Just a easy guide on how to meditate in the most basic Buddhist way.

Dont get to concerned about wrong paths etc if you take up a form such as the basic Buddhist way, and to be honest most of the "demons" are within our or selves our fears and deep subconscious minds.

They usually only arise once you have practises for a long time and got rid of the surface junk as such anyhow.

On this thread here is a post that may interest you: Here

Tai Chi, Yoga and such like are meditations to.

This is the best form for beginners really just being mindful used with the above.

So you can either do the following 2 practises taking turns or choose one and stick to it.

It is best to be sat cross legged with a straight back whichever you do, as described in the above posts, or have your hands on your knees.

Either choose an object of meditation, it can be anything, your breath is the best to start. Just sit relax and breath follow your breath be aware of it, count them. Feel it coming into your nostril. right is good. Feel the air flowing into you. Count them. Now when your mind wanders and you start thinking of things, getting distracted, imagining things, going to the past and future once you become aware this has happened, don't get angry or upset, just start again. Keep bringing your attention and focus back to the now, the object your breath.

Maybe try 10 mins a morning, make it the same time every day is good.

Once you get more practise and it is a habit go for 20 mins etc.

This is Object meditation, you can do it with sounds or something visual, over time you will be able to keep your attention on the object for longer and longer, and other benefits and experiences will happen.

Then there is mindfulness where you just sit and become aware, but don't focus on any one particular thing, just be present now, and be aware of the now as thoughts come up, just let them watch them and be aware of them let them drift away don't push them away or grasp them just be aware of them with no judgement.

Over time the thoughts will get less strong and like clouds in the sky just blow away, they will seem like a long way away from your awareness, so you are not ruled or controlled by them anymore, but by what you want to be focused on.

Simple as that, no dangers at all in these two basic, and really core types. No need for fancy stuff that is meditation. And safe. But do as well lk for a local meditation group so you can discuss your experiences with a teacher, and if you truly want enlightenment you will NEED a direct face to face teacher who has been at whatever level you are at already. Doing the above though for a few years every day on your own, will bring you tremendous and amazing benefits and experiences, after that when the other stuff starts happening you will need a guide.

Get the basics right first.

Love and Light

Elf.

From This site

Question: Are the Siddhis (super-natural powers) mentioned in Patanjali's Sutras true or only his dream?


Sri Ramana Maharshi: He who is Brahman or the Self will not value those Siddhis. Patanjali himself says that they are all exercised with the mind and that they impede Self-realisation.


Question: What about the powers of so-called supermen?


Sri Ramana Maharshi: Whether powers are high or low, whether of the mind or of a supermind, they exist only with reference to the one who has the power. Find out who that is.


Question: Are Siddhis to be achieved on the spiritual path or are they opposed to Mukti (liberation)?


Sri Ramana Maharshi: The highest Siddhi is realization of the Self; for once you realize the truth you cease to be drawn to the path of ignorance.


Question: Then what use are the Siddhis?


Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are two kinds of Siddhis and one kind may well be a stumbling block to realisation. It is said that by Mantra, by some drug possessing occult virtues, by severe austerities or by samadhi of a certain kind, powers can be acquired. But these powers are not a means to Self-knowledge, for even when you acquire them, you may quite well be in ignorance.


Question: What is the other kind?


Sri Ramana Maharshi: They are manifestations of power and knowledge, which are quite natural to you when you realize the Self. They are Siddhis, which are the products of the normal and natural Tapas (spiritual practice) of the man who has reached the Self. They come of their own accord, they are God given. They come according to one's destiny but whether they come or not, the Jnani, who is settled in the supreme peace, is not disturbed by them. For he knows the Self and that is the unshakable Siddhi. But these Siddhis do not come by trying for them. When you are in the state of realization, you will know what these powers are.

Originally posted by scratchmane
Sri Ramana Maharshi: The highest Siddhi is realization of the Self; for once you realize the truth you cease to be drawn to the path of ignorance.


Question: Then what use are the Siddhis?


Sri Ramana Maharshi: There are two kinds of Siddhis and one kind may well be a stumbling block to realisation. It is said that by Mantra, by some drug possessing occult virtues, by severe austerities or by samadhi of a certain kind, powers can be acquired. But these powers are not a means to Self-knowledge, for even when you acquire them, you may quite well be in ignorance.


Question: What is the other kind?


Sri Ramana Maharshi: They are manifestations of power and knowledge, which are quite natural to you when you realize the Self. They are Siddhis, which are the products of the normal and natural Tapas (spiritual practice) of the man who has reached the Self. They come of their own accord, they are God given. They come according to one's destiny but whether they come or not, the Jnani, who is settled in the supreme peace, is not disturbed by them. For he knows the Self and that is the unshakable Siddhi. But these Siddhis do not come by trying for them. When you are in the state of realization, you will know what these powers are.

very good post. I agree that the highest Siddhi is realization of the Self. Once this is felt Im sure its far harder to walk down the path of ignorance.

Once your wallet is empty but your house is filled with healing crystals, and assorted mystic trinkets, and you have the ability to sound really wise when talking to people without actually saying anything, and can sit still for very long periods of time looking cool, youve reached enlightenment.

If anyone reaches enlightenment, be sure to actually DO SOMETHING and help the rest of us out so we can finally see whats so terrific about it. I've never heard of anyone reaching enlightenment and then turning around and actually helping humanity afterwards.

I've heard of the ascended masters , who supposedly reached enlightenment and guide mankind thru secret societies or somethin... quite frankly I'd like to lock them all in a deep, dark abyss and light em on fire for all eternity... And I know I'm not alone on that one!

[edit on 28-4-2009 by mostlyspoons]

Originally posted by mostlyspoons
If anyone reaches enlightenment, be sure to actually DO SOMETHING and help the rest of us out so we can finally see whats so terrific about it.

Do you mean force you into it and do all the work for you? There are tons of threads around here where people are constantly trying to help each other to heightened states of awareness. It sounds to me like you're just looking for someone to hold your hand. That's not what self-empowerment is about.

Originally posted by bsbray11
There are tons of threads around here where people are constantly trying to help each other to heightened states of awareness. It sounds to me like you're just looking for someone to hold your hand. That's not what self-empowerment is about.

I have definatly found the many enlightenment threads very helpful, Ive met some fantastic people on them too, such connections do really help but in the end as you say its down to us.

Originally posted by mostlyspoons
If anyone reaches enlightenment, be sure to actually DO SOMETHING and help the rest of us out so we can finally see whats so terrific about it. I've never heard of anyone reaching enlightenment and then turning around and actually helping humanity afterwards.

Well there are two paths, to it, one for the benefit of all beings and one just for ones liberation.

Many on the benefit of all beings path do as you quote they dont.

The below being Drubwang Rinpoche realised the Mahamudra, the most profound of Mind Yogic Practises during a 10 year retreat :



And as you will see below, even though he was going to die, he was asked to live longer to help other Beings and he did:



An website dedicated to him is here:

Ven Drubwang Konchok Norbu Rinpoche's

As said though you need to do it for yourself, a person who has walked the territory can guide you, but cannot make the journey for yourself.

Kind Regards,

Elf.

[edit on 28-4-2009 by MischeviousElf]

What is Enlightenment? How can you know when you have reached it?

I will give my attempt to answer the latter, first.

When you have reached Enlightenment, you simply know it. There is no doubt in the mind, ever. An Enlightened Being never once questions the state of their mind and soul with regards to their place on the Path to Enlightenment. If you doubt or question or wonder if you are already there, then you are not.

Conversely, if you are Enlightened and proclaim it from every rooftop, run to everyone you know and proclaim, "I know something you do not!" or simply sit with a smug smile, waiting for someone to ask for your infinite wisdom, you are only fooling yourself and veering far off the path.

Enlightenment is simply an altered perspective of reality. It is taught that there are as many paths to true Enlightenment as there are people in the world, but there is only one Enlightened state. The reason the request to be guided on the path to Enlightenment cannot be wholly granted is because your path is not the same as theirs. The path cannot be shown, but the Enlightened state itself can be described. You are at perfect peace with your place in life, both internally (to yourself) and externally (the way others see you). When you can look at life and honestly proclaim that you have no worries in this or any life, you will no longer question whether or not you are Enlightened.

mostlyspoons, the reason you do not hear the wisdom of others is not because they are not speaking, but because you are too busy talking to hear what they are saying. The moment you judge another for good or ill, you block out that other portion of them - their good or ill side you no longer see - which then instantly becomes a lost learning opportunity. Choose any post at random from this entire thread and read it. Look for something positive to learn from it. If you are incapable of doing that, I have nothing more to say about it. If you do manage to learn something positive from it, then consider yourself richer for it and go out somewhere else and do it again.


[edit on 29-4-2009 by RadicalIgnoramus]

Is enlightenment just the same as finding our lifes happiness? Is enlightenment the same as being truely happy?

Originally posted by Venus014
Is enlightenment just the same as finding our lifes happiness? Is enlightenment the same as being truely happy?

Enlightenment has been referred to in Buddhist texts as a state of
"gone beyond to bliss" or "gone to bliss".
Bliss means complete happiness.
Therefore enlightenment is the same as finding our life's happiness.
(Though it would be a happiness beyond what we could imagine).
Enlightenment has also been called a "state beyond sorrow."

Enlightenment has been described as being beyond concepts.
Just as the concept orgasm to one who never experienced one
would be hard to convey. The word doesn't convey the experience
and intellectual knowledge of an orgasm without experiencing one
still leaves the intellectual clueless. Enlightenment is unlimited too and
realizing the unlimited with limited information makes it difficult to
comprehend too.

Originally posted by Venus014
Is enlightenment just the same as finding our lifes happiness? Is enlightenment the same as being truely happy?

The Dalai Lama states that unless something does not provide us with happiness we should not persue it. Some people may "like" to drink lots of alcohol but think why should I give this up, I deserve it. he says rather than looking upon as having to give something up we "think" we deserve we should look to it and how it provides us happiness. Lots of alcohol obviously does not provide happiness so this is a way of giving it up without thinking we are loosing out. The same could be said for smoking.

recently I have listed several things that I know really dont give me happiness but I "think" I deserve them. By realizing they dont provide me with happiness makes it so much easier to give up negative and destructive things in our life that we "think" we deserve as treats.

reply to post by Mr Green


Suffering is what brings about the need to understand. If you ran away from your problems your whole life youd probobly be a buncha frail old talking heads on a crumbling temple in the mountains. Next time the dali brings up freeing tibet tell him to practice that non-attachment he preaches to much. When was the last time they said anything that made a differance anyway? What good is your message if the only people who understand it are you malnourised and halucinating flock? Can they be sure they understand anything at all?

well once enlightenment is achieved, then what

isn't it all about the journey