Enlightenment. What is it and how do we know when we have achieved it?

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by Mr Green

 

I meant the part where you said "seek the now."

I was curious as to whether you meant literally to seek to be in the now, to strive to be in it rather than the future.

aahh yes very good I see what you are saying here! Ive contradicted myself with the very word "seek". You are a very observant person!

Your right I have used the wrong word here, we should not seek the now as thats just the same as seeking enlightenment. We just need to be in it, not seek it for to seek it is as you say the future.

Just to totally surrender to our life in the very moment we are in, to live in its now and be totally aware. To be so aware we seek no future and dwell on no past.

[edit on 27-1-2009 by Mr Green]

If all of the signals from your senses take time to reach your brain... could you ever really live in the now... your always seeing and sensing somthing that happened a split second ago. Any now you can comprehend in your brain is always behind reality.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
If all of the signals from your senses take time to reach your brain... could you ever really live in the now... your always seeing and sensing somthing that happened a split second ago. Any now you can comprehend in your brain is always behind reality.

It is very hard your right, and this is why I think enlightenment can be found there. Its a state of being, once you start to practise living in the now you get tiny glimpses of how very liberating it is, at first they are mere seconds before you return to your previous state of compulsive thinking of the past and future. It is this compulsive thinking that is keeping you from the now, from enlightenment.

The more you focus your being in the now the longer these seconds of inner stillness and peace become. When you enter these times of complete now, of complete awarness you will feel more alive than you ever have before. For me I feel a swirling of energy in and around me, its so hard to describe, but for those minutes I am able to consciously achieve total now I feel total love all around me. I dont know what this force is or where it comes from, maybe it is a feeling of total oneness Im not sure but it is the most beautiful feeling I have ever experienced, and I know it can only be found in the now.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
If all of the signals from your senses take time to reach your brain... could you ever really live in the now... your always seeing and sensing somthing that happened a split second ago. Any now you can comprehend in your brain is always behind reality.

Yes, it does take a split second for the electrical signal from your eyes to become decoded in the brain. Or from the fingertips it takes a millisecond for "hot" to run the loop into the brain and cause the fingertips to jerk back.

However, it takes you further from the moment when you begin talking to yourself about that. "Wow, that was really hot." And further still if you go on, "hot things are evil. I HATE HOT THINGS! Who is the idiot that left this hot thing here....yadda yadda yadda."

The moment you are sensing is your "now." Thinking about "now" is actually a story you are telling about what happened a second or so ago. And of course you can go further from "now" the more deeply you allow your mind to travel backwards or forwards in time.

Your consciousness only has one time. Now. It is perception or awareness prior to storytelling about the perception.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Your consciousness only has one time. Now. It is perception or awareness prior to storytelling about the perception.

Frustrating as frick huh? If only it would conform! : )

Originally posted by Mr Green
Your right I have used the wrong word here, we should not seek the now as thats just the same as seeking enlightenment. We just need to be in it, not seek it for to seek it is as you say the future.

Language is a pain in the butt sometimes. I know my posts can be hard to follow at times because I spend extra time trying to clarify the way I am using the word, or that I know it isnt fully adequate and why.

Thats one of the difficulties and dangers in conveying with language the experience to anyone else, particularly if they have not yet seen it themselves. Even a minor error like using the word "seek" can send someone off on a wild goose chase if they happen to be following you rather than looking themselves clearly. If someone already knows they do not form the same attachment to the word as they already share with you the concept.

It is my belief that this is why the "mystery religions" were a mystery. Not that the practitioners did not wish to share the experience from those who had not yet had it, but because some of the masters (those who were highly adept) had clearly seen the danger in conveying the experience via words.

reply to post by Sonya610


Lol. That why I particularly enjoy the Buddhist term "monkey mind." It is a good description of the view of ones own mind in action. It is amusing as hell watching the mind try to get around that little hurdle. It does get frustrated, stomping its little monkey feet, trying cleverness, acting cute, sad, angry, whatever it thinks will change that little fact.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


No...i mean the moment/reality thing. I am not a philosopher (obvious by my style of speech). I meant in the moment, if the moment would only conform! But failing that...alcohol helps (I did not actually say that in a metaphysical thread...you just THINK i did).

reply to post by Sonya610


I see. Yes the mind does want the moment to conform to it rather than it have to submit to the moment. Thats one of the dangers of confusing your "Self" or consciousness with the mind "you." You as Self or consciousness doesnt have a preference about the moment, and so the moment always just is what it is. The mind however, does care greatly that the moment be as it wishes. and so it throws little fits when the moment doesnt conform to its "idea" of what it should be.

And yes, the mind will find escape from What Is wherever it can. Even in a glass if it realizes the futility of trying to change What Is.

The thing I find interesting is that the mind will even try to leave the moment if the moment IS pleasant to it, by worrying about losing that pleasant moment. If a beautiful pleasant thing is seen, one will typically spend one second actually viewing it, and the next ten minutes with the mind talking to itself about how it should have brought a camera along instead of enjoying the full ten minutes in its presence.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
It is my belief that this is why the "mystery religions" were a mystery. Not that the practitioners did not wish to share the experience from those who had not yet had it, but because some of the masters (those who were highly adept) had clearly seen the danger in conveying the experience via words.

Good point, this is why now if someone comes to me with pages and pages of "how they reached enlightenment and how if I follow them I too will reach it" I tend to not believe their way is the way. Im not saying that what they have experienced isnt divine but to put it into words is so difficult and really should not be attempted. Some may say isnt that exactly what we are doing on this thread, but no I dont think so. We are talking about what enlightenment is and how it effects us but no one is saying this is how its done and please follow me.

Your right there is a danger in conveying spiritual experiences via words and we must always remember this. My error is saying "seek" rather than "be" is a good example of this . I now realize its very important what we say to others, we can mislead without even realizing it.

I do think its good to discuss things though, Ive learnt a lot from this thread and found it very helpful.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by Mr Green]

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
The mind however, does care greatly that the moment be as it wishes. and so it throws little fits when the moment doesnt conform to its "idea" of what it should be.

The thing I find interesting is that the mind will even try to leave the moment if the moment IS pleasant to it, by worrying about losing that pleasant moment. If a beautiful pleasant thing is seen, one will typically spend one second actually viewing it, and the next ten minutes with the mind talking to itself about how it should have brought a camera along instead of enjoying the full ten minutes in its presence.

I like the way you have wrote this, how the mind throws a little fit if the moment does not conform to what the mind expects.

YES! I have done this, Ive experienced something magical and then lost the moment because Ive start speaking to myself about how I should have had a camera to capture the moment so I could hold onto it for ever! The far more rewarding experience would have been to go with the moment in its now and fully experience it. How can I possibly hold onto a moment for ever!! It is madness to think this, to live it in the now is the only way to fully capture any moment.

According to this new description of enlightenment, living fully in the now, I guess I am enlightened. yay. Wait does that mean I am not enlightened now that I say I am? darn it.

Originally posted by cancerian42
According to this new description of enlightenment, living fully in the now, I guess I am enlightened. yay. Wait does that mean I am not enlightened now that I say I am? darn it.

Do you truely live totally in the now though, your whole being is it totally in the now never ever leaving it ever?

reply to post by Mr Green

I don't know for sure, but I'd say so.

Originally posted by cancerian42
reply to post by Mr Green

 

I don't know for sure, but I'd say so.

Really, that is quite an achievement. Would you say you feel at one? Would you say you feel awakened? Is it hard to walk around in this state of complete awarness? I think Id most probably faint lol

reply to post by Mr Green

Really, that is quite an achievement. Would you say you feel at one? Would you say you feel awakened? Is it hard to walk around in this state of complete awarness? I think Id most probably faint lol

An achievement? no, it is a mindset. I would say yes, I feel "at one", but I don't know how to feel "at two" or "at three". And yes, I would say I feel awakened as opposed to asleepened.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by cancerian42]

[edit on 28-1-2009 by cancerian42]

Originally posted by cancerian42
reply to post by Mr Green

Really, that is quite an achievement. Would you say you feel at one? Would you say you feel awakened? Is it hard to walk around in this state of complete awarness? I think Id most probably faint lol

An achievement? no, it is a mindset. I would say yes, I feel "at one", but I don't know how to feel "at two" or "at three". And yes, I would say I feel awakened as opposed to asleepened.

[edit on 28-1-2009 by cancerian42]

[edit on 28-1-2009 by cancerian42]

Yes I see how this could be..a mind set and not an achievement. Good point how can we feel as two or three! Thank you for your post much said in only a few lines.

However maybe "mindset" is better said as a state of being.

[edit on 29-1-2009 by Mr Green]

reply to post by ExamineAllViews

The concept of enlightenment is an illusion!If it were true then there would be no 'one' to experience it!It is a trick of words,another 'pack of cards' that falls flat at the mere hint of decent enquiry.Tony de Mello says "all is well" in truth all is not well, take a look around you.Buddha retreated into himself when faced with sufferng and came up with what 'non attachment' pretty obvious really!We must face up to this reality 'as it is' and seek wisdom not enlightenment.Self observation is the key to wisdom.Do not strive 'or not strive' for enlightenment Wake up!

reply to post by midicon


The only wisdom that exists is that from understanding causality. In understanding the causal nature of your plights you may find solice. It has always been benificial to search for what the future holds by understanding the past that it has been built upon. Complete detachment from survival or perception is only usefull if your life is torturous and you live to far into the mountians to leave.

reply to post by Wertdagf
There is no real wisdom to be gained by understanding causality.A child can understand 'cause and effect'!Being clever with words does not equal wisdom.There is no 'plight' there is just life and we all seek solace in one way or another.Real truths are simple really!Wake up.