Enlightenment. What is it and how do we know when we have achieved it?

Originally posted by Sonya610
Perhaps your mistake is thinking that you need another person. You want to believe there are people, or spirit guides, or some other ego based entities that can show you how to do it.

And whether are telling you the truth, or what they think is the truth, or if they are simply manipulating others because they enjoy it, is not the issue. Even if they are lying to you, it isn't there fault that you listen to or believe their lies.

Buddha said -- Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

[edit on 25-1-2009 by Sonya610]

Thank you Sonya, yes you are right. I think throughout all this I have looked for other people/guides/spirits to help me on my journey. This in my case really has not helped as most of the time the people Ive listened to have not really been all that helpful. This is not their fault, they most probably totally believe what they say and think they are actually helping me, the fault lies with me. I chose to listen to others over my own thoughts and my instincts. I dont think this makes me weak, well in a way it does but I hope all we experience is for a reason. As Cancerian says there is no wrong or right, everything is to be learned from. The main point being to learn, if nothing is learnt then there may be issues of falling into the same events again further down the line.
Your quote from Buddha is a very good one and a very wise one. Hindsight is a wondeful thing!

Very good reply thank you.

Originally posted by psycho81
reply to post by Mr Green

 

If anyone is telling you what you need to do on your journey they are manipulating you for their own selfish gain. They are trying to make you fit the Label/Image in their own mind, in most cases people don’t know they are doing this; they are lost in their mind clinging dearly to their attachments that make them more fulfilled, in this scenario the attachment would be you and your judgment of them e.g. you trusting them and showing appreciation makes them more fulfilled.

You may think… If I don’t trust anyone how do I know I am on the right path?

Only you know if you are on the right path, anyone trying to tell you different is looking out for their own interests unless they are enlightened, however an enlightened person would only point the direction, you would have to read the signpost and walk the paths yourself.

P81


[edit on 25-1-2009 by psycho81]

Thank you P81. As with Sonyas reply, yours too I totally agree with. Thank you.

Your right, people who are even slightly enligtened will have the insight to know we cant tell others what to do on their own personal journey. Everyones path is different and we can never know the answers to anothers, never.

I agree it becomes like a clingy attachment. They need you to keep them fulfilled and you need them to keep showing you "the way". Soon dependancy has crept in through the back door and neither party can really see clearly any more. The relationship between "master" and "student" really is a hazardous affair and should not be taken up lightly. It should not be taken up at all in my opinion because there are very few "masters" and many many "students". True absolute masters who prove beyond all their worth they are wise and enlightened is another matter totally, Im talking about self made masters who really know no more than you or I!!

I think in the path to enligtenment we all need to look upon ourselves as students and never masters.

Your right an enligtened person will always point you in the right direction, help you use the knowledge you have within to find the correct way and never ever will they TELL you the way.

One thing I have found is to stay clear of people that say my way is the ONLY way. How can there only be one way to enlightenment, this statement is crazy. There are many ways, all just as valid as the next, there can not be only ONE way this to me just does not ring true.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
One can logically no more disbelieve as a blanket statement than believe. One really does have to actively engage by closely observing the person to see what they are after. Kind of like a martial artist watches every muscle in their opponent to see what move they will make next. If you pay close attention to what a person is saying you can often discern their motive. Even if they are unaware of their motive, as is often the case. Which allows you to act more appropriately towards them in the moment. If ones mind is just saying, "Im not listening....la la la..." it is as ineffective as a technique as blind belief.

Yes if one observers the speaker you may be able to see the motive. And I do think many people will be very very sincere, and honestly tell you what they “know” must be the true path, but in reality they are utterly clueless. There is no litmus test for the seeker. Now afterwards you can speak with others and say “wow, yes we have had the same experience, we saw the same thing” but beforehand? No way to really know.

I guess the trick is judge the message and NOT the messenger. When people start judging the messenger (or more specifically believing in the messenger, which means if “he” says such and such it must be true, even though it does not seem to make obvious sense) that is where most get mislead.

When I was seeking I read various metaphysical books, some were great, some less so. Many had stuff in them that I didn’t understand, or that seemed just downright whacky/wrong on the first read. I would try to wrap my mind around odd bits and analyze them but I never tried to make myself believe anything that did immediately “feel” like truth. I did not know, or care to know much about the writer/messenger, I just read the message for what it was and decided it if made sense.

Now if I forgot the book for a few years, and for some reason decided to pick it up again for another read years later, those “questionable” parts often were obviously true! They made complete sense, and I totally knew where the writer/messenger was coming from. However I did not reach that understanding by studying the book, or forcing myself to accept what was written. I simply enjoyed reading different views and bringing various ideas into my reality.

Originally posted by Sonya610



I guess the trick is judge the message and NOT the messenger. When people start judging the messenger (or more specifically believing in the messenger, which means if “he” says such and such it must be true, even though it does not seem to make obvious sense) that is where most get mislead.

Yes your right, its the message we need to look to not the messenger. By focusing totally on the message, which is of course the only thing that really matters, we remove ourself from the messenger. Its easy to become dependant on messengers, they are human, we form relationships and friendships with them, however a message is a set of words we can either accept or reject.
No one can become dependant emotionally on a message but an emotional dependancy on a messenger can so easily form. It forms without you even realizing it, and when you do its too late, you have become dependant. A co dependancy has formed between you and the messenger. They want you to ask more so you ask them more. You want them to tell you more so they tell you more. A negative feed back system is set in motion which until one breaks free of its potentially endless.

Originally posted by Sonya610

I guess the trick is judge the message and NOT the messenger. When people start judging the messenger (or more specifically believing in the messenger, which means if “he” says such and such it must be true, even though it does not seem to make obvious sense) that is where most get mislead.

That is a very good way to phrase it. I also like to pay attention to "what I want to believe." I like to notice which types of stories appeal to me or really piss me off even if they dont "ring true." It tells me something about my own egoic mind and its attachments or fears.

I believe every person or thing you meet is a "guru" in the sense that you can learn something important from them. It may not be what they think they are teaching you. It may be nothing that comes out of their mouth, they may be spouting utter gibberish. However in your personal ego based reaction to them there is something to be learned about what you are attached to or rejecting about "What Is."

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

For example, in my case it was my own suffering that created the circumstance in which I was able to have the spiritual experience. It was my suffering that kicked that door open and allowed me to see things a different way. If someone had "saved" me from my suffering, prevented it, maybe it would have been years more until I woke up. Maybe I never would have. I cant know, I can only say that in my case, my suffering was a blessing in disguise.

That doesnt mean I always walk away from another persons suffering, however. It only means I do not always assume suffering is bad.

Great suffering does seem to be one of the triggers for a personal awakening. I guess the phrase "suffering is good for the soul" does mean something. We should not see suffering as a bad thing as you say, but sometimes when I see intense suffering I do wonder if its really necessary.

This reminds me of how sometimes when we help people out who are suffering, we should maybe allow themselves to find a way out of it as they more often than not end up returning to their suffering situation. Maybe in some cases it is kinder not to intervene and allow them to learn.

The balance between giving advice on enligtenment and leaving one to learn alone is a very fine one.

The other issue is as individuals we start to ask many many questions of those around us who we see a spark of enligtenment in. This too leads to problems because usually we dont ask the right questions and the answers usually mean very little to us.

I remember when I first started asking questions (hasslling people more like lol) the answers they gave me were so cryptic they meant nothing to me. Answers such as "sometimes its best to follow the path not so brightly lit than to blindly go down the well lit path" or " follow your heart, all you need is within" at the time such answers were far too cryptic I just didnt understand. Now I do understand them and why they were given to me in such a cryptic way. These answers are pointers to the path and not direct directions....just as it should be.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by Mr Green]

Originally posted by Mr Green


I remember when I first started asking questions (hasslling people more like lol) the answers they gave me were so cryptic they meant nothing to me. Answers such as "sometimes its best to follow the path not so brightly lit than to blindly go down the well lit path" or " follow your heart, all you need is within" at the time such answers were far too cryptic I just didnt understand. Now I do understand them and why they were given to me in such a cryptic way. These answers are pointers to the path and not direct directions....just as it should be.

Indeed. I think that illuminates a big part of the problem, and what Sonya was pointing to when she said "what other people are doing is not the issue." Most people WANT to be led. They want to just believe and not be responsible for having to "figure it all out as they go along." If they dont believe in a specific person, they want to believe in "rules," or something of that sort that takes away the responsibility of having to keep their active awareness on the precise moment they are in to determine the next appropriate step.

Just as no PERSON can lead you to enlightenment, no rule or set of rules is going to provide an easy cheat sheet either. You just have to stay aware, conscious, in the moment you are in, to figure out what is going on, and what you need to do to harmonize with that moment. You have to be willing to never "know" with certainty in a close the door kind of way, and keep looking, stay conscious, keep listening to your "heart" or intuitive sense.

It seems most of us are looking for a way to live that will let us do it on auto-pilot, and there just isnt an auto pilot for enlightenment. Enlightenment is (allowing for language difficulties of course) being fully Conscious, it is the opposite of auto pilot.

Originally posted by Mr Green
We should not see suffering as a bad thing as you say, but sometimes when I see intense suffering I do wonder if its really necessary.

I should clarify this, I am not saying we should ALWAYS leave those suffering to their suffering. Even in this there is no one rule that will give you the "right" answer all the time in every case. You have to listen to your intuition and be able to tell your intuitive sense from your mental voice. You have to do the right thing in that moment. Whatever that happens to be. And your guide to this is not a rule, "always help," or "never help," it is your intuitive sense of what feels "most right." The tricky bit is sorting your intuition from your mind yelling rules at you.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


That is the tricky part! Does everyone have to suffer to learn? Is there anyway to raise a child to know things without having suffered from them?

What does this mean in relation to possible Life outside of our planet? What would be their rules in terms of allowing planets and people to suffer?

When understanding is the goal of all life... how hard is it then to define good and evil?

What is there left illusion! If the world doesnt want to listen... what good are we? Are we allowing them to dig their own graves?

If i had my choice now i would leave this place. There is nothing left for me to gein. Every refusal to see the truth is like a stab in my heart. I am indeed talking to myself in a mirror... i know this, but how much can you stand to watch your reflection cut itself.. how much blood can you watch flow out of the veins?

Something is coming very soon Illusion. I feel it in the back of my mind.

Sentient beings .
The journey.
The plan,
The beginning.
The experience.
The knowledge.
The love
The joy.
The suffering.
The forgetting.
The forgiving.
The veil lifting ENLIGHTENMENT?
The homecoming.
The 14 Dalai lama has some thoughtfull quotes.
see link.



www.ascensiongateway.com...







[edit on 26-1-2009 by headlightone]

Originally posted by Wertdagf

That is the tricky part! Does everyone have to suffer to learn? Is there anyway to raise a child to know things without having suffered from them?

It is tricky. But in answer to your question "does everyone have to suffer to learn?" I ask yet another question, "Does there need to be a rule?" Do I need to know the answer to that? or can it be that there really is no answer? Can I figure out a way to live, to operate harmoniously in this illusion even if I do not know the answer to that?

Originally posted by Wertdagf
When understanding is the goal of all life... how hard is it then to define good and evil?

Is understanding the goal of all life? I know I like to "understand" but understanding for me also means understanding that there are things I simply cannot understand. I have to understand myself first, and that understanding at the moment includes understanding that there are what appears right now to be inherent limits in this minds ability to "know" some things.

As for knowing how to define good and evil, maybe we cant. Maybe that is why some traditions call it "the original sin." "Sin" today has a moral implication, but in the past, "sin" meant something more akin to the word "mistake."

en.wikipedia.org...

But in the biblical Hebrew, the generic word for sin is het. It means to error, to miss the mark. It does not mean to do evil.[3]

Perhaps the very thought that we can definitively know good from evil is simply a mistake. Perhaps the human perspective, these eyes, this short life, this physical location on Earth, is simply so limited that I cannot see the big picture and therefore I cannot know what is good from what is evil?

I know that is the case in my own life. Often things I was certain at the time were just pure evil have turned out with the passing of many years to be blessings. Maybe my understanding needs to include the understanding that my understanding will always be incomplete.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
What is there left illusion! If the world doesnt want to listen... what good are we?

Maybe they dont HAVE to listen in order that any one of us do something "good."

Originally posted by Wertdagf
I am indeed talking to myself in a mirror... i know this, but how much can you stand to watch your reflection cut itself.. how much blood can you watch flow out of the veins?

Maybe the idea that they either have to listen or we stand there are watch the blood flow is a false dichotomy. Maybe there are more choices available than that "either/or."

I do not KNOW the right thing to do. I dont have THE answer. But I am experimenting with trying something outside of the either/or you presented.

I am smiling at the mirror.

I dont see in my day to day life untold suffering. I dont see lots of anger, and rage, and hatred. I can turn on the television if I want to see it, but what I am doing is making a different face into the mirror to see if it gets reflected back. If I smile at others genuinely, and treat them like they really matter to me, like they have inherent value aside from my own selfish wants, what happens in the mirror of my experience?

Well, so far, the results of my experiment are this. What I put out into the mirror is exactly what I get back. If I have a bad day and walk out spinning in my egoic thoughts and cranky, I get cranky back. If I am fully conscious and accepting, I get happy, helpful, kind people in my day.

If I get a result in the mirror that doesnt seem to fit what I THINK I am doing, I dont assume that the mirror is lying, I look more closely inside myself to see if that unexpected thing is really in there hiding. Disguised. Covered up by my egoic denial.

I dont know THE right thing to do, but it seems to me wholly illogical to use the phrase "oneness" and talk about "singularity" and all that hoohah if one doesnt really believe it. How do you know what you really believe? You look at what you ARE doing. If you are yelling at the person in the mirror, you havent really wrapped your head or heart around the fact that there is a mirror there. Or really applied your understanding of how a mirror works.

I dont completely understand how the mirror works in the fullest sense. I know that. But I am experimenting with the little I do know, and I am having fair success at it. I cannot make the "big" mirror of the world reflect to me what I think I am doing, (which tells me that there is a lot of stuff hidden away in there I havent yet brought to my own awareness) but in the smaller mirror of my own life I am finding that it works quite well on a mundane level. Sure, it might be preferable to know how to make the big mirror work, but for now, I will crawl before I can walk. Maybe this "me" will never learn to walk. But what does that really matter if you arent really "you" anyway?

[edit on 26-1-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]

In terms of smiling at the mirror. In my experiance, to much smiling allows things which should be discussed with another to sneak by. It allows both people on the ends of the mirror to have a false sense of happiness for the moment, something many people would be more than happy to indulge in.

You may smile at somone and they may smile back to, that doesnt change them from thinking that you have to accept jesus christ and be baptised or burn in a lake of fire. You may be able to ignore such a thing by putting blinders on yourself as i did in my previous experainces and just smile at the person, but what good is ignoring it?

By throwing punches and really getting to the nitty gritty you can anaylize the fundamentals of such logic and the emotions behind it. Its experaince that can help pre-emptively disarm flawed logic from the back door before discussing the aspects of religion, soul, and free will. Its not about winning the fight with somone who has locked themselves in a cage.... but stopping those who have yet to lock the door.

Maybe we should just start our own good cop, bad cop routine(not that we werent already, maybe you noticed) it seems to be effective in every aspect of reality.

the problem most spiritual people have with enlightenment,is that they're always thinking of it as a journey,something that you're aiming for. Something that you're not at yet,something that is far away ect. The future doesn't exist,there is only now,so saying I'd like to be enlightened,is saying in the future,you'd like to be enlightened. And it will forever be IN the future,which doesn't exist,where your dreams of enlightenment will stay.

I'll let Eckhart Tolle say it better than I can. Well worth 8 minutes of your time.


just remember,you're already enlightened,you're already there.

reply to post by headlightone


Thanks for that, I especially like this quote

"Although i speak from my own experience, i feel that no one has the right to impose his or her beliefs on another person."
14th Dalai Lama Quote

This man to me is one of the few who has achieved enlightenment in life. Every single quote listed shows his inner peace and calm.

reply to post by Acidtastic


Hi thanks for that, Im a fan of his work and have read his books and listened to his audio tapes but Ive never seen him so thanks .

I totally agree with seeking the now and its something I try to do. Some days its easier than others but its really helped me especially in the area of the pain body and ego.

Eckhart Tolle is very correct in saying enlightenment should not be a goal. It cant be a goal because a goal is set in the future. Once we give up the search and seek the now we will find it.

Originally posted by Mr Green
Once we give up the search and seek the now we will find it.

This is something I have always wondered. Is anyone really listening to what he is saying? Or do they just like the delivery and him and his popularity or authority and they so they "follow" his teachings?

Not that I have any problem at all with what he is saying. I dont. I choose different words, but the concept is the same in essence. The reason I am asking this is because of what those who love his work say about what he says.

For instance, do you mean what I have quoted from your post? Is that what you think he said in that clip? I am asking a genuine question, not a hostile one. Upon thinking about it, is that quote of yours a genuine reflection of what you think he said? Or was it hastily written and you would rephrase it if you knew you were being quizzed on it?

reply to post by Acidtastic


Interesting video. I tend to look at it in terms of consciousness and creation. It is often said that no logic can bring you understanding of god, of true self etc. That you must let these go. Well after much study I have come to realize that consciousness has no logic to it. There is no logic that can create consciousness, and for that same reason there is no logic that can understand it either.

I believe the point of enlightenment is to find your true self and to bring it forward. While we are complete consciously, internally and in our true self, we often doubt this because externally we do not realize it. And often times we hold our true selves down. We shrink down for the comfort of others, and they shrink down for the comfort of others, and in the process we are not being true to ourselves.

But I dunno, after realizing the true self and having that experience of knowing/enlightenment, I think there are automatically things that will change externally, and you will act different.

Maybe someday we will live in a society where rather than the discussion being about achieving enlightenment, it will become a discussion on what happens after. And yes, I know I just broke the rule of "now". So maybe that discussion is life in itself.

[edit on 27-1-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Wertdagf
In terms of smiling at the mirror. In my experiance, to much smiling allows things which should be discussed with another to sneak by. It allows both people on the ends of the mirror to have a false sense of happiness for the moment, something many people would be more than happy to indulge in.

I disagree. And, I would be willing to bet that no one who knows me in person, or even here who has seen several of my posts would accuse me of glossing over areas of disagreement in order to provide a false sense of peace.

I think it depends on how you view disagreement. If you view it as a fight, it can become a fight. If "peace" is agreement, and "war" is disagreement to a person, then they may try to gloss over disagreement and "lie" with a smile and a phrase to smooth it all over. I do not think peace is agreement. Peace is the lack of war. You can peacefully disagree. You can peacefully argue your point. (where "argue" is used in the technical sense of "presenting a case for" rather than the more common use of the word where argue=fight.)

You can genuinely like, respect, and accept a person you disagree with. You can agree to disagree, or you can agree to argue your points and you can accept that your points may not be taken. You can even accept that the other person may react hostilely and begin to fight with you because you simply disagree. You dont have to "fight" back. You can either continue to disagree peacefully or give up the argument in the moment in order that the person have time to collect themselves. There are tons of possibilities to choose from.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
You may smile at somone and they may smile back to, that doesnt change them from thinking that you have to accept jesus christ and be baptised or burn in a lake of fire. You may be able to ignore such a thing by putting blinders on yourself as i did in my previous experainces and just smile at the person, but what good is ignoring it?

You can also tell them you disagree, and why, and simply smile and carry on. You dont need blinders. You can clearly see that they think you are going to hell, and that they feel a need to "save you" and you can accept that and carry on with your life. Why is it a problem? If it were me, I would be asking myself if I started to get mad about their belief why I cared so much what someone thought of my destination after death? Why does their belief cause conflict in me? Do I suspect or fear they are right? If I dont why is it a bother? If they are trying to convince me that I will go to hell without baptism, even if I think they are wrong, does that not show that they care about me? Enough to want to save me from the fate they perceive for me? Mistaken or no? Why should I be angry at someone who is caring about me?

Originally posted by Wertdagf
By throwing punches and really getting to the nitty gritty you can anaylize the fundamentals of such logic and the emotions behind it.

This is one of the core points we disagree on. You believe anger makes someone more able to reason, and I do not believe that. My observation is that anger makes someone LESS able to use reason. Anger at 9-11 was used to make us swallow a whole bunch of untrue and clearly untrue statements about why we should bomb Iraq. None of the terrorists were Iraqi, for one. Most were Saudi. If bombing someone was the answer, logic would have dictated we bomb Saudi Arabia. Not Iraq. No one was using logic at that moment, except the people who wrote the speeches that caused the masses to jump on the bomb Iraq bandwagon. Those people who orchestrated the war believed as I do that emotion is the way AROUND logic. Not the path to it.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Maybe we should just start our own good cop, bad cop routine(not that we werent already, maybe you noticed) it seems to be effective in every aspect of reality.

I dont know how effective it is. I dont think anyone has changed their position because of either of us. Which is fine for me, because changing their position is not my intent. My intent is to figure out why certain beliefs persist. Not for their sake, but for my own. If there is persistent belief in the mirror of the world in things that serve the ego at the expense of consciousness, I really do assume that those same elements are at play within myself. I am aware of the fact that if one is in denial about something, by definition they cannot see it in themself. So, if in the mirror I see a great deal of belief that is inharmonious with "what is" I assume that within me there must also exist a similar dynamic.

You cannot see your own face without a mirror. Because of the fact that you are looking out from that position. But you can use a mirror to see if there is dirt on your face. If there is, you can reach up and wipe it off your face, once you learn how the mirror works. (Sometimes things are reflected backwards, or distorted in some way)

I do not assume that my "enlightening experience" has left me perfect. Why? Because I understand that my mind did not become enlightened. Some enlightened people are not clear on that subtle but important point. They assume because they have seen a thing, or experienced it, that their mind is capable of understanding it. I can and have gone back through the reported teachings of many whom I am certain were enlightened as we define it, and found that even though there is a high percentage of consistency between what they say and their actions, there is always a mistake.

In a One, a fractal, if one of us were to really change, totally, deeply and completely, what would happen to the rest of the fractal? What would HAVE to happen to it? And if the fractal or One has NOT fundamentally changed, what does that imply about all those who have had an enlightening experience, including me?

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

For instance, do you mean what I have quoted from your post? Is that what you think he said in that clip? I am asking a genuine question, not a hostile one. Upon thinking about it, is that quote of yours a genuine reflection of what you think he said? Or was it hastily written and you would rephrase it if you knew you were being quizzed on it?

Yes I totally mean what I have quoted from Eckhart Tolle. His idea that enlightenment can not be a goal as in something we work towards. It cant be a goal because a goal is placing energy into the future. We can only find our selves in the now, enlightenment can only be found in the now so this constant searching for it will not work. Once we give up the search we have a much better chance of finding it. To live totally awake in our consciousness of now with no past or future mind pain to me is where enligtenment will be found. Like he says we have everything we could ever need within us right now and that is what we need to shine our consciousness on.

Im sure your right that some people just like the sound of his voice or think its trendy to read his books, but to me hes changed the way I look at life and how to get the best out of our now.

reply to post by Mr Green


I meant the part where you said "seek the now."

I was curious as to whether you meant literally to seek to be in the now, to strive to be in it rather than the future.

Because if you are "trying" to be in the now, you are still pushing energy into the future, it is just a future only minutely ahead of you. I am not saying you did mean it that way. Which is why I asked if you would phrase it that way again if you knew you were being looked at under a microscope. I know that the way we commonly use language can lead us to careless misuses of terms, so I did not want to assume that you intended it the way you said it without allow you to clarify first.

Accepting is not seeking, trying, striving, at all. You cant really "try to accept." If you are trying you dont really accept but you want to. He uses the word "allowing" but it is the same principle. You can accept that you dont feel very accepting about the moment you are in. That is still acceptance at its heart. But you cannot "try" to accept and have it actually be acceptance. That is cleverly disguised rejection of "what is."

[edit on 27-1-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]