Enlightenment. What is it and how do we know when we have achieved it?

Originally posted by SS,Naga
OK, let's get ready to Kill the Messenger! Everybody, get your stones, machetes, whatever. Here it comes...Feel It? Can't you FEEL the Fear, the Hate Building?

#10. Explained: (in words?) The Fear of Enlightenment is Real! Why? Because Everything in the State of True Enlightenment is A HOMO.
That's right everybody, it's the Integrated, or Male-Female Blended SELF! Whoops, shouldn't have told anybody the Truth, heck, is That gonna Hurt! Owwie! That's Right, It's Androgynous. That's what you're Afraid Of: This Androgynous Being-Self is found in the Unknown: It Deals with the Unknown, because it IS the Unknown (read my posts! get some guts: face IT). You Become the Central Light Core of Yourself In This Manner.

Ok, all done. Grasp #1 & #10, and you can prepare to Go Home As Pure Energy (the Transmutation, purpose of Life), instead of 'go home' back to the Void of Unknowing.

Not the End.

Anybody getting the shivvers Now?

Society teaches you not to know this stuff: KILL IT WHEREVER YOU FIND IT!

Notice all the gays coming out, crawling all over 'healthy' society? Hmmmm?????

No: no gay sex is permitted, sorry: that's sandbox stuff. You must learn to become IMPECCABLE.

PS - OK, you can start to 'kill the messenger' now: I sense the hate, the fear, the 'oh no no no!'

This is YOUR TASK, not philosophy 303.

[edit on 18-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

I know everything is male - female blended. Why should this fill me with fear? Yes pure energy, what is the problem with that? Hate? You've lost me here. Kill the messenger? I may have to go read your post again...

Originally posted by SS,Naga


That's right everybody, it's the Integrated, or Male-Female Blended SELF! Whoops, shouldn't have told anybody the Truth, heck, is That gonna Hurt! Owwie! That's Right, It's Androgynous. That's what you're Afraid Of: This Androgynous Being-Self is found in the Unknown: It Deals with the Unknown, because it IS the Unknown (read my posts! get some guts: face IT). You Become the Central Light Core of Yourself In This Manner.

Aside from the fact that the word homo and androgynous are not analogous, it is precisely this "non-dual" state of "being" that is at the core of what I have been discussing. Except that it is so "non-dual" that it not only transcends male/female, but also life/death, me/you, now/then, being/not being, and on and on for all polarities or dualities.

I too agree that it is, and must remain, "unknown" because the mind is necessarily dualistic. The mind can only "Know" dualitic concepts, and even if one (ones consciousness or "soul" perhaps may be a word that works for some) has had the realization of non-dualism, ones mind is still dualistic. You can move closer to understanding with the mind, or remain utterly entrenched in dualism, but the mind will never "realize" (make real to itself) non-dualism because the architecture of the mind itself is dualistic.

The mind can accept that it cannot know "What Is," it can accept the limitation of itself, or it can pooh pooh the limitations and charge on ahead insisting that it CAN know absolutely what enlightenment is. When the second route is taken, when the mind insists it CAN know absolutely, the illusion deepens, it does not wear thinner. When one accepts that one cannot know, with the mind, even that which consciousness has experienced or realized, then one at least has a real understanding of the limitations of the mind.

What made Socrates the wisest of men, he concluded, was that he alone realized he did not know. Plato, in the Seventh letter, goes on to elaborate on this.

Much is made of the "mystery" religions and their offshoots. People seem to assume now (and if you believe Plato, in the past as well) that if only someone would tell them the secrets, the mystery, they too would KNOW some glorious thing. But the etymology of the word mystery;

www.etymonline.com...

from myein "to close, shut," perhaps referring to the lips (in secrecy) or to the eyes (only initiates were allowed to see the sacred rites).

If Plato's own reasoning IN the 7th Letter be taken as an explanation (and since he was an ancient Greek, not a scholar of it, and one of its consummate wordsmiths, I think that we can..) it is closer to closing the lips. (Although he is clear in other parts that though "sight" is closest it also is insufficient as a complete synonym to the faculty with which one actually can have gnosis.

The mouth remains shut not because anyone sane would want the teachings to remain out of the hands of all people;

Again, if they had appeared to me to admit adequately of writing and exposition, what task in life could I have performed nobler than this, to write what is of great service to mankind and to bring the nature of things into the light for all to see? But I do not think it a good thing for men that there should be a disquisition, as it is called, on this topic-except for some few, who are able with a little teaching to find it out for themselves. As for the rest, it would fill some of them quite illogically with a mistaken feeling of contempt, and others with lofty and vain-glorious expectations, as though they had learnt something high and mighty.

And Plato says of those who think that they can just hand the teaching in written form to another;

I did not, however, give a complete exposition, nor did Dionysios ask for one. For he professed to know many, and those the most important, points, and to have a sufficient hold of them through instruction given by others. I hear also that he has since written about what he heard from me, composing what he professes to be his own handbook, very different, so he says, from the doctrines which he heard from me; but of its contents I know nothing; I know indeed that others have written on the same subjects; but who they are, is more than they know themselves. Thus much at least, I can say about all writers, past or future, who say they know the things to which I devote myself, whether by hearing the teaching of me or of others, or by their own discoveries-that according to my view it is not possible for them to have any real skill in the matter.

Plato is not alone in being a mystic that has come to this conclusion, many have. There are arguments from the Sufi mystic tradition, to the Christian mystic tradition, the Taoist tradition, etc.

It may be a noble sentiment to want to hand the knowledge of "What Is" to another, but if one assumes one can in fact do so, I would argue as Plato does that one is not seeing the whole picture clearly.

Originally posted by SS,Naga
reply to post by Mr Green

 

Mr Green - I told you the link was going to be difficult, and also that it required a bit of gnostic background. Oh well.

May I strongly suggest you read the simpler version: "The Gospel of Thomas?"

Also, no comment from you on this link:
"THE SECRET OF LIGHT"
www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 17-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

I remember discussing this very concept several years ago with a colleague, he loved physics and the Universe. We spent many a time talking of such things, about how Id be able to look back and see myself at the event horizon ,all that sort of stuff! When he described the light being reflected as if mirrors and lenses where there it did come as a shock at first but then as I thought about it, yes it made perfect sense.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


"Aside from the fact that the word homo and androgynous are not analogous, it is precisely this "non-dual" state of "being" that is at the core of what I have been discussing. Except that it is so "non-dual" that it not only transcends male/female, but also life/death, me/you, now/then, being/not being, and on and on for all polarities or dualities."

Yes I agree with you here.


"I too agree that it is, and must remain, "unknown" because the mind is necessarily dualistic. The mind can only "Know" dualitic concepts, and even if one (ones consciousness or "soul" perhaps may be a word that works for some) has had the realization of non-dualism, ones mind is still dualistic. You can move closer to understanding with the mind, or remain utterly entrenched in dualism, but the mind will never "realize" (make real to itself) non-dualism because the architecture of the mind itself is dualistic."

Why is it to remain secret/unknown? Even though the mind is unable to experience or even accept this, why does it have to be kept secret? Do you mean from the mind or us?

I know my mind will never accept non dualism, that it is totally unable to experience this, but I still know its the ultimate truth, to me it is not unknown.

( confussed? ... yes I know, its all terribly confussing!!!)

[edit on 18-1-2009 by Mr Green]

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

Oh dear, notice Plato says, "In My View."

We're at a New Birthing of the Light, at a Higher Round of the Earth Cycle of Light, regardless what you might want to express in 'knowing' of nonlocality, singularity, superposition, etc. YOU need to wake up.

And Did I not say, "in words?" Meaning, there were NO WORDS , or syntax, to convey the Truth of the intimations I spoke of.

And you play semantics regarding 'homo' and 'androgynous' and say they are not the same thing. Correction: It is CONTEXT SHOCK VALUE POTENTIAL. Not to you, maybe, but SOME (I've seen 'em come after my friend with bats, years ago, 'cause he was gay: I stopped it) KNOW the value of this shock factor. YOU might be 'so high up there' that you no longer relate to what's actually In the Mind's of Man(kind?). They use the word 'homo' and 'androgynous' and 'gay' and several other choice verbalizations (vernacular) interchangeably, readily. Using them, they equate them,; You do not, stuck on semantics. Talk about comprehending 'meaning.'

Now, Mr Green, you are being addressed at this point, also:

So you Know the value of what I said, eh? Funny, I left that OUT on purpose: You cannot 'Hand' this knowledge to someone no matter how much you desire to. Don Juan, old shaman sage, said, "your fellow men will laugh and make fun of you, and the more aggressive ones will beat the $h!t out of you" ("The Active Side of Infinity," Carlos Castaneda, pg. 221).

Believe me, I left the juice out of the post, but put the wheat in.

'Mind;' that again? Both of you, please stop equating this 'intelligence' factor of mind as the only aspect is has. Universal Mind Operates Through Two Aspects, Low & High: One is 'the Snare of Illusion' and is called intellectualization, or the process of ratiocination, the 'feeling/thinking' side of True MInd (Universal Mind): the Other Half is Direct knowing, it is no longer a state of mere 'sentient consciousness,' but DIRECT EXPERIENTIAL Awareness. People all over ATS describe this 'state' of 'expanded' awareness, and do not often refer to it as 'expanded consciousness.' There is a reason. And it is the Other Half of 'True Mind.'

Don Juan remarked on such discussions:

"...we could go on forever like dogs biting their own tails, trying to describe this. Language is inadequate. ...these experiences are beyond syntax."
("The Active Side of Infinity," Carlos Castaneda)

Now, I am about to leave you to your thread of enlightenment. I suggest you read my last post until, maybe, perhaps, it sinks in, and is no longer 'intellectualization.' No other way I can present it, because it can only be understood, or 'discovered,' as a personal experience.

Then come back (if), and try respond to the post. Sure, I know, some very few here already know what I was transmitting as "the enlightenment Truth hint."

You think society isn't frightened of what I revealed in that post? Stop the stupidity, deal with Knowing, not your ego. It's all around you: See below [androgyny & d & r].

Psssttt....

"If two make peace in one house, they shall say to the mountain: 'Be moved,' and it shall be moved.'" (Gospel of Thomas, sayings of Jesu, 1959 A.Guillaumont translation)

more

"When you (plur.) make the two one and make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside and the above like the below, and that you might make the male and the female be one and the same, so that the male might not be male nor the female be female..."(G.of Thomas, Layton)

Ok, can even ONE person explain this 'secret saying of jesu' to us? It was the hint in the Post we are discussing.

I cannot MAKE you Know this: everywhere people 'give their reasoning' regarding the meanings of these statements.

Here you see what people Are Really Doing with their 'reasoning' process:

"...there are many around the cistern [reasoners who 'know all about it'], but nobody in the cistern. Many are standing at the door, but the solitary are the ones who will enter the bridal chamber." (Gospel of Thomas, saying sof Jesu, 1959 A.Guillaumont translation)

So, what was the True meaning of my post? You think about it. When you KNOW HOW TO DO IT, then you will know longer think about it.

Yes, this is fearful; why? They/we are talking about two things Very Horrible to mankind to hear spoken of: androgyny, and Death and Resurrection.

Of course, this is certainly not the POPULAR side of Enlightenment, is it?
Just the TRUTH. Heaven Forbid.

[edit on 18-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

reply to post by dunwichwitch

Enlightenment is the shedding of reason and purpose to everything. Enlightenment is the destroyer of self. Enlightenment is the scariest and most lonesome thing you'll ever experience.

I can say that if there is a specific moment in a lifetime where one could say with certainty immediately after that they have been enlightened - I haven't arrived there yet

but on some level dunwitchwitch - I suspect that what you say here is true

it feels true - I can feel it even just loitering outside the door that opens on a never ending hallway that may or may not guide you in the general direction of enlightenment - what ever enlightenment means - if it even means just one thing

but if there is a kind of knowledge that exists that would show you something you couldn't know before - wanting to know it is one thing

getting on that ship and sailing away - knowing you may never come home again - would be a very lonely feeling

Like I said, its all terribly confussing all this isnt it.

Yet I still feel I am exactly where I should be, I am told exactly what I need to know at the exact time I need it, all I have to do is listen. Listen to my heart. My heart is totally open to the oneness of life, and as long as I allow it to be totally open to unconditional love nothing else matters. I have all I ever need within so why be confussed.

Enlightenment is love. Total love and acceptance of all. To love being part of all, to know we are part of all. To love all.

I've wondered about this myself many times.

Personally, I think "Enlightenment" is achieving a full Oneness with the universe.

Finally understanding why things work the way they do. What your purpose is. What your soul is meant to do.

Everyone can achieve this, because all major religions say that you are created in the image of the creator.

I think you can do this by meditation, astral projection, and accessing the Akashic Records. All of this takes a gargantuan amount of training and discipline, but it can be done.

Originally posted by BombasticChaos
I've wondered about this myself many times.

Personally, I think "Enlightenment" is achieving a full Oneness with the universe.

Finally understanding why things work the way they do. What your purpose is. What your soul is meant to do.


I think you can do this by meditation, astral projection, and accessing the Akashic Records. All of this takes a gargantuan amount of training and discipline, but it can be done.

yes it most probably is achieving a oneness with all that is. Meditation is a tool that can help in this for sure.

Is the ability to astrally project and read the Akashic records really all that important though? I have often wondered this very question actually, and I dont think its essential.

How would you know you've even seen these records? What do they look like? Would you even be able to read them anyway? I just think it doesnt need to be as hard as achieving that. How many people do you know that can say without any doubt they've seen these records?

Originally posted by Mr Green

Why is it to remain secret/unknown? Even though the mind is unable to experience or even accept this, why does it have to be kept secret? Do you mean from the mind or us?

From our mind, or intellectual process. Anything I say about "the non-dual" is of necessity dualistic. Anything I think about the non-dual is necessarily dualistic. Although ones consciousness can realize or become fully aware of, non-dualism, even in that "individual" the mind only gets a shabby second hand version of it.

Originally posted by Mr Green
I know my mind will never accept non dualism, that it is totally unable to experience this, but I still know its the ultimate truth, to me it is not unknown.

What you write above is the dilemma I am trying to communicate. It is "known" by gnosis, ( "intuitive awareness" is how some describe it, "conscious intelligence in the moment that precedes thought"is how I tend to describe it,) not "known" intellectually with the mind as we know an apple is red(ish). While the mind can not "know" it, (gnosis) in its full sense, the mind IS capable of discriminating "what it is not" by referencing back to the "realization" or "experience" that the Self or Consciousness had. So have awareness of it, consciousness of it, but even in ones own mind the mind is incapable of really handling "non-duality" in a completely accurate way.

If the mind could, then the creations of the mind, such as language could convey the understanding from someone who did have Conscious Awareness of it, to someone who did not, and this is just not possible. In fact, what often happens, and what one sees in all religions, is that the mind becomes intoxicated with the idea that it can "know" and begins spinning faster trying to "make it happen" for itself or another, and that leads the listener further away from the place where "conscious intelligence in the moment that precedes thought" actually is. In the immediate present. So what tends to happen if one doesnt understand that the mind itself can never "know" enlightenment, is that the mind leads consciousness away from the place where that realization can occur. Now.

I feel there are some maybe here who intellectualise this more than it should be, in teachings and understandings and such like,

Originally posted by Mr Green

Listen to my heart. My heart is totally open to the oneness of life, and as long as I allow it to be totally open to unconditional love nothing else matters. I have all I ever need within so why be confussed.

Enlightenment is love. Total love and acceptance of all. To love being part of all, to know we are part of all. To love all.

As mentioned in a previous post this is it in its essense.

Buddha said once, and not verbatum

if you know all the scriptures, all the vedas, are a highly trained monk, know all that is to be learnt and taught about "the way" note here elf he was referring to the name Taoism, which maybe Mr Green would like, the unknowable, the all, the undescribable, reality
If you meditate endlessly, and offer prayers, blessings, and walk the world in search in truth, it is for naught, for nothing if you do not have LOVE in your heart.

And as you point out this is the true answer, unconditional love, like the Dog story, but to live it and be it until it becomes subconscious and natural, until all the other normal behaviours and responses are re written as such in your very core then, you are there.

Or as in the Documentary I posted when the Dalai Lama talks about the monk who humbled him when he met and asked what it was like being tortured and imprisoned for years by the chinese, and replied

I was in real Danger

Dalai Lama thinking he meant of deat or more pain and feel sympathy, but the monk replied

In real danger of loosing compassion for my jailers

Thats it. No long memorised or highly intellectual treatise, no deep profound truths.

Just that. these other things can all help us get to taht destination, help us control our minds and bodies, but without Love you may as well go an learn NLP or Magic, its of the same value spiritually.

All that was, is and ever will be is found in LOVE and that should be the ultimate aim and goal on any journey to enlightenment IMHO.

It seems you are a good way to understanding this Mr Green, when you can Know it, and Become it even as a hand hits your face and automatically turn the other cheek, have compassion for the perpretator as there is no division and you love yourself and "Out There" the same, then you shall have arrived.

I only wish I had placed more than one foot forward on this path, as it is becoming more apparent to me as the years go on of practise that to learn the entire Sutra's is easier than real change in the face of adversity in this context.

May Love and Light bath you all in its truth.

Om Mani Padme Hum.

Elf.

PS Mr Green search for Alan Watts and listen if you like he is very good in this regard of understanding and not just learning.

Originally posted by SS,Naga
#10. Explained: (in words?) The Fear of Enlightenment is Real! Why? Because Everything in the State of True Enlightenment is A HOMO.
That's right everybody, it's the Integrated, or Male-Female Blended SELF! Whoops, shouldn't have told anybody the Truth, heck, is That gonna Hurt! Owwie! That's Right, It's Androgynous. That's what you're Afraid Of: This Androgynous Being-Self is found in the Unknown: It Deals with the Unknown, because it IS the Unknown (read my posts! get some guts: face IT). You Become the Central Light Core of Yourself In This Manner.



[edit on 18-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

I still cant see why I should fear this? Fear enlightenment because of this? To me it makes perfect sense, I often feel in rare times of deep meditation I am a blend of male-female, its perfectally normal for me to accept this statement.

This being is the unknown? No it me, its not unknown to me at all, honestly its not. I have sensed it, I have become it, its not unknown. Its me.

From what i understand, once you have reached enlightenment you feel at peace with the world we all know, and you feel only sensations of love and compassion (as welll as a tingling sensation across your body). You accept the reality of such things as suffering in the world ie you do not feel outraged, angry or sad towards war, poverty etc. I do not believe youre filled with knowledge of magic or whatever, but your capacity and ability to learn is increased.

I find with alot of "spiritual" people (you know, those that send their love and light) tend to believe theyre enlightened but are far from compassionate and very self centred (selfish) people that feel theyre better than the rest. That is my experience at least, and i avoid painting all people with the same brush, but i would say roughly 80% of the people whom claim to be "spiritual" people (that i have met) are very stuck up, egocentric people. To those people, please keep your love and light, you certainly need it

reply to post by psycho81


Often when i can see how somone will be hurt, by themselves or others, i try not to say anything unless advice is requested. Its one of the most difficult things to deal with. Its something that never grows numb. Youll never stop seeing and feeling the mistakes of your fiends.

Narrow down what ever it is you feel needs to be said into one sentence that is mostly passive. Often once that person gets screwed over they will come back and mention you said something about it and in that you have a chance to build peoples trust in your insight.

Its probobly one of the most horrific things in the world knowing how to help somone that doesnt want it.

reply to post by MischeviousElf

...as it is becoming more apparent to me as the years go on of practise that to learn the entire Sutra's is easier than real change in the face of adversity in this context.

May Love and Light bath you all in its truth.

I'm not sure why I'm replying - except that this just got to me

that is the thing - isn't it

:-)

reply to post by MischeviousElf

understanding and not just learning.

The very reason I love Anthony de mello's work, I was hoping somebody on here has read some of his work. Does not seem to be the case though, yet they want to understand Enlightenment/Awareness.

Once again thanks for the Documentary link, I would highly recommend it to members on this thread

reply to post by Wertdagf

Its probably one of the most horrific things in the world knowing how to help someone that doesn’t want it

I find it pretty amazing I have crossed paths with somebody who has some experience of this happening, but yes it can make you feel so useless and isolated. Most times I take it with a pinch of salt but other times I just feel like screaming “Can you not see where this is going” especially when you do go deep into other people’s emotions. Many times I have been very upset saying to myself “I did not ask for this why me” suppose we all have our little gifts we just have to work out how to best use them.


I’m still trying to make sense out of all of this; it seems way out of my control at times. However if anything its brought strength to my own emotions and feelings, sometimes though my emotions can be none existent, have you ever experienced this yourself. I have tried to talk to friends about my experiences but it’s not the easiest thing in the world to talk about, hence the feeling of being isolated. Some people on and off line have commented on things I have said, but this is the most I have talked about it.


Thanks

P81



[edit on 18-1-2009 by psycho81]

reply to post by psycho81


Well talk in u2u's

So as to not hijack this thread more than once.

reply to post by Wertdagf


No problem maybe it's worth a topic of its own, until recently I didn't even know what it was I was going through. I feel I can step out of the corner I have been in for so long, thank you so much.

When you posted earlier in the topic I though you came across a little crude, I didn't respond as I knew there was something more about you. Saved a rant and an apology, and I also know I come across crude myself sometime. Sometimes it hard for people to understand, I’m so glad I can now talk to somebody about this.

Right back on topic

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by psycho81

 

Well talk in u2u's

So as to not hijack this thread more than once.

I wouldnt call it hijack. Empathy is very related to this thread dont you think.