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Enlightenment. What is it and how do we know when we have achieved it?

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posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 03:29 PM

Originally posted by cancerian42

Originally posted by Wertdagf
I dont think it is..... and yes you would have to factor in as much known emotional data as possible to make a acurate model. You of course would have to be very skilled at picking up such data. LOL

Measuring water flow is math. It is calculable. The brain and everything connected to it is not presently calculable or perhaps ever for humanity. You say we would have to factor in as much known emotional data as possible. Why do you say "as possible" if you believe we can know every cause and effect related to a person's life. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds as if you are not sure if it is possible or not.

...when people discover such "past lives" its from a pshycic that charges 20 dollars.

You believe that reincarnation is not possible? Please explain, since you yourself said, no one knows what happens after we die. Is there some logical explanation as how this could not possibly ever happen?

Im going off the FACT that such revelations come from people who are paid for their ability to provide such AMAZINGLY false information. The more gullible somone is the more money you can make.

I know its possible to predict thoughts and emotions. The degree of accuracy depends on previous experiance with such mental archetypes and the amout of information you have. You would be suprised to find how much people give away about their current state of mind unknowingly.

You might also be suprised to find out the amount of memorys that people save in their concious mind for decision making is much less than the whole total of subconcious experiances.

posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 03:30 PM

Originally posted by cancerian42

Originally posted by Mr Green
Ask questions, aim questions towards your higher self and spirit guides. Im beginning to think these are the ONLY ones to aim your intent at.

Loose fear of all entities, embrace them all into the one with unconditional love but do not seek them to help with intent and affirmations, only speak directly to you higher self, spirit guides and of course the one being who is pure consciousness. (who the entities reside within anyway)

But you may not be asking the right questions. I would say listen to everyone's point of view even if you think they are "bad" you might learn something. Everyone has something to teach and everyone has something to learn (at least that is what I have observed). You do not help yourself when you close your mind.

You misunderstand me. Im not closing my mind off to anyones point of views at all, I love others points of views, it broadens my horizons and helps me see things Id never have seen. What Im referring to above is in MEDITATION. To only seek out the guidance of my higher self and spirit guides in meditation. To ask them questions only in meditation and not aim it in a general spiritual direction.

I have no problem at all listening to others, no one is "bad", and yes I learn from all who post. My mind is not closed and I hope you can see this.

EDIT: I have re read my post and yes Im sorry I did not point out it was in meditation and could have been read as in general. Sorry I hope this clears this point up.

You do make a good point about asking our higher self the right questions. How do we know what we ask is even the right thing to ask? I was told once that whatever we ask our higher self needs to be direct, short and to the point.

[edit on 17-1-2009 by Mr Green]

posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 03:36 PM
Black Sun Rising

Don't ask...Yes...I am...Making fun...Of all...Of you...

Be careful what you wish for.

posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 03:39 PM
reply to post by Wertdagf

"Im going off the FACT that such revelations come from people who are paid for their ability to provide such AMAZINGLY false information. The more gullible somone is the more money you can make. "

Yes its sadly true that this does indeed happen. However there are many that give their information away completely free and expect nothing in return.

posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 03:46 PM
reply to post by illuminatitrickster

Yes, indeed, there is the Black Sun. But hardly pertaining to this thread, at the level it is being approached.

Most of what's being discussed here is very cursory, and that's the nature of what passes on ATS for 'inner depth.'

What are you doing here? Did you even read the thread? Just to talk here, I have to couch everything i say in pseudo-expressions and half-concepts. Not that people are stupid, but most have not gotten very far (imo). Some of the posters have reached considerable depth, I admit, but they make a helpful comment or two and disappear. Don't blame them: how do you make someone 'know' something? Best that can be done is help where help can be given, even if it's very small help.

And since you're talking glibly about the Black Sun, can you describe the Black ARC for us, and where it is located?

[edit on 17-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Mr Green

However, I would not expect a single person to believe me, because until I experienced these two events I doubt Id believe me either. We need and must see these things for ourselves. I see countless wild and outrageous claims on ATS, but I will never go in and ridicule or pass judgement on these claims. Why? because I see how hard it is to show someone something you have seen and they have not.

I believe you. I dont ascribe to the idea that division in any form, be it human or alien is reflective of ultimate reality, but within material reality I accept that there is apparent division and that this apparent division should not logically be restricted to Earth or even this dimension.

In my view materially, beings from other dimension or plants or astral levels or whatever are just not relevant to how I currently need to live, but if they showed up at my door I would have to figure out how to deal with them in material terms. If they are currently at YOUR door, then you DO need to figure out what to do with them, regardless whether ultimate reality is indivisible or not. Regardless what ultimate reality is or is not, we each do need to figure out how to live in apparent reality. Whatever that may look like to us "individually."

Most people on this thread, (though not all) seem to propose a One, a higher something that transcends all division, that is what I was given to deal with, and for me it is difficult enough for my mind. So I prefer to not foray into areas of further division if I dont have to. Just trying to figure out how to live successfully in "material division" while not acting completely inconsistently with the "oneness" I was shown is hard enough. I certainly would not want or seek to see further division.

If however, higher levels or planes of division are on your path, then I would say it is what you need for your journey. I would not say it is "wrong" or any more "wrong" then the material view my eyes see. Nor do I doubt you either do see it or believe you do. (Just considering the possibility of hallucination, not implying I think it is the case.)

I enjoy attempting to discuss these things, but ultimately, I do not believe there is one right way. (in human terms that is) And, I do believe that we each get precisely what we need. (Even if we do not always understand why we might need it.) I also do not believe I am missing anything I need by not seeing these supernatural levels of division. I think it is just a matter of differing routes to the same destination.

posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 03:56 PM
reply to post by Mr Green

Mr Green - I told you the link was going to be difficult, and also that it required a bit of gnostic background. Oh well.

May I strongly suggest you read the simpler version: "The Gospel of Thomas?"

Also, no comment from you on this link:

It is short n sweet, and filled with all you need to know for an incredible realization.

Also, not to heckle a good soul like you, but I also suggest sticking with strictly your 'Higher Self' for inquires. And do not trust 'guides,' for in the long run, they will push you around the maze, with no more in return than a bit of your energy lost. Oh well, find out for yourself. You can u2u franspeakfree for her opinion on the matter: she did a thread on it when she woke up to this fact. Few see it in time, before the 'guides' become leeches.

And on a side thought, since you found the informative link so difficult, do you now see how 'the masses' were able to be duped by the nefarious 'church fathers?' Rather than study, think and learn to know first hand, they opted out and decided it was 'easier' to just pay the 10% tithes.

Now, that was a Bright Light!

[edit on 17-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 03:56 PM
reply to post by illuminatitrickster

"Be careful what you wish for. "

The path to enligtenment really has no place for fear. Fear holds you back.
Fear is always linked to what might happen. To be "careful what we wish for" brings anxiety. Anxiety is an emotion the ego loves, it loves it because it can run your life with this anxiety. And where is the origin of this anxiety? It is generated by fear.

So even if you do post in jest, I shall continue to wish for many things, without a care.

posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 04:26 PM
Just wondering if anyone else is familiar with Adi Shankara's Advaita Vedanta. For me the concepts of Atman and Brahman (specifically the difference between Nirguna Brahman and Saguna Brahman (illusory Ishvara)) are particularly useful for understanding self and the whole.

posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 04:49 PM
The most reasonable conclusion I can make within the context of the question is that you are referring to the ecliptic, the apparent path of the sun in the sky throughout the year from our perspective here on earth.

posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 05:49 PM

Originally posted by mrmanuva
Just wondering if anyone else is familiar with Adi Shankara's Advaita Vedanta. For me the concepts of Atman and Brahman (specifically the difference between Nirguna Brahman and Saguna Brahman (illusory Ishvara)) are particularly useful for understanding self and the whole.

No Im sorry I have no idea what the concepts of Atman and Brahman are about. can you tell us more?

posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 06:17 PM
reply to post by Mr Green


Philosophical schools such as Advaita (monism) see the soul within each living entity as being fully identical with Brahman - the all-pervading soul of the universe, whereas other schools such as Dvaita (dualism) differentiate between the individual atma in living beings, and the Supreme atma (Paramatma) as being at least partially separate beings.[2] Thus atman refers to the individual soul or the observer.[3]

It is essentially the same thing we have been discussing. Just the Vedic version. My view for instance, is Advaita in this lingo, where yours seems closer to Dvaita.

posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 07:52 PM
As many traditions are now releasing their "Secrets" and opening closed doors to the teachings and wisdom they have collected, in recent times, I have he following for all.

I suggest strongly all interested in this subject watch the film.

My only concern is that people may flick through it. This documentary is over 1 hour long, and does contain a history lesson as such on the people and current situation of where these Yogis come from, in a very small of the beginning.

As they have shared their until now secrets and deepest personal experiences on this matter, which generally is kept to oneself in this tradition, only guiding others to their own experience in secrecy, please do respect that and therefore watch the entire film.

Mr Green and some others who have posted, I know you will anyhow.

As the film is now only available on VHS tape and very few can purchase it for practical purposes as unable to view it I don't mind posting it here, And I know the intent behind the film is to share this knowledge.

I cannot say how many times I have watched this, I have lost count and I am confident it will have a similar impact on some here.

So to see what its like to devout oneself to the search and experience of enlightenment, to for the first time in history hear from the "Horses Mouth" as such what the mind stream and experience is like when immersed in meditation for 50 odd years or more, in seclusion.

Basically an interview with the longest retreat meditator's currently known on the earth, or at least those who have allowed their experience to be shared with us, and to experience ancient Yogic Practises revealed for the first time its here.

My sincere wish is that some may be strengthened in their resolve and actual practise not words, to reach enlightenment, for their benefit and all other beings. As we are one anyhow, your progress touches and raises me to.

Love and light to you all, and please if you feel so think about the Tibet Situation and make some effort to write to your representative or spread the message this culture has for humanity to ensure humanity keeps this practise, and the possibility of enlightenment alive, before it is totally lost in Walmart Factories, and tourism.

Google Video Link

The Yogis of Tibet
If you have never seen it before I know you will be quite amazed.


[edit on 17-1-2009 by MischeviousElf]

posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 01:11 AM

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by Mr Green

For me "Enlightenment" is having the knowing of a great many things that most do not know. It means knowing how to do things such as astral travel, telepathy with other like minds, developed research skills that allow one to learn things faster than most. It means a developed brain that processes more information that most others do. It means being totally free from any dogma. There is more, this is but a few things.

autowrench, can you elaborate on the "smarts" side? Do you do anything to improve your cognitive abilities? I feel like I've gotten slower in my midlife and am having a kind of crises of sorts. I feel like I am still dumb about something, but I don't know what. There is something about life that I just haven't figured out yet.

posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 06:19 AM
reply to post by MischeviousElf

Thanks for the link, looking forward to watching the video.

posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 06:42 AM
reply to post by Wertdagf

Back on to Empathy again as it's something I think I have always had throughout my life, I have always been connected to other people’s emotions and always put myself in their shoes, the thing is though I think I can spend too much time doing this without even realizing it. I have been told many times by many people that I spend more time in other people’s shoes than my own. Sometimes I can have outburst of positive and negative emotions, feelings, this can cause me to be on cloud 9 for no apparent reason or the opposite. Sometimes this can cause me to rant but not for the sake of putting my opinions across, to me I have seen the situation from their emotions, feelings and so forth and because I have no attachment or prejudice towards the situation I feel I can give good solid advice.

It can be hard sometimes because let’s say a friend of mine (Friend A) introduces me to another friend (Friend B), this new person I have now met comes across all nice and caring (Friend B). Sometimes I know how this person is going to turn out due to the emotions, feelings and so forth (let’s say I get negative emotions, feelings), how can I tell (Friend A) about what impact this person will have on them. It just doesn’t feel right, I could try helping (Friend B) out so everyone is happy, but how do you offer that help when they don’t ask. I have been through this scenario many times throughout my life; it can sometimes put me deep into (Friend B) negative emotions, feelings “Something out of my control”

I would like to be able to control this more, as sometimes I think I can be hard on people but they cannot understand it’s for the better outcome. I take it you understand what I am talking about and the situation above is something you have been through before. So basically how I can control this more, in some situations it’s been very hard for me and there isn’t many people you can talk to about this.



posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 06:45 AM
reply to post by MischeviousElf

Thankyou for your link to the Asanga Teachings.

I notice it lists a more indepth list of the 5 desires we must over come before we can become enlightened.

I read on another site the first stage to enlightenment is the revealing of the all seeing eye. After this the next step is to pass the tests of the 5 Earthy desires. I actually found it difficult to get much information on what exactly these 5 desires are, your link lists the following 10.

1. killing

2. stealing

3. sexual misbehaviour

4. lying

5. slander

6. insulting others

7. idle chit chat

8. coveting

9. ill will

10. wrong view of reality

Other sites list it just as wealth, sex, fame,food and sleep and Ive also found another list that says the desires are form, taste , sound, aroma and touch.

To overcome these desires we'd have to become super human. We are in bodies how is this possible? I can see how many of the Asanga teachings can be over come, these seem to be traits rather than actual desires in some cases, but food and sleep? Does it mean we are to become less dependant on them rather than give these up entirely? I guess it goes back to the masters who can survive on no food for weeks , is this really what we also must do? I really cant relate this to myself.

Yes thank you for the video I will watch it when I have the time to devote to it.

[edit on 18-1-2009 by Mr Green]

posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 08:56 AM
reply to post by MischeviousElf

Thank you very much for the video link, enjoyed every second of the documentry. In fact it’s probabily the best documentry I have seen in a long time.


posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 09:13 AM
OK, let's get ready to Kill the Messenger! Everybody, get your stones, machetes, whatever. Here it comes...Feel It? Can't you FEEL the Fear, the Hate Building?

You Want Enlightenment, but don't Really Want to Work For It?

READY? (Say when...Ok, I can hear you all shouting, "YES!')

1) First, awake to your travelling Awareness: The Eye, tunneling through Space-Time Matter-Energy.

10) Wrong View of Reality: You are Lost in the Maze.


#1 Explained: (in words?) You are travelling in Two Directions Simultaneously; you must learn to Develop The Double to be Able to Change Directions, or Awareness of the Other Self, Travelling in the Other Direction. You will feel a Pop! when the Awareness Pivots in the Act of 'doing' this (Performing the Task).

#10. Explained: (in words?) The Fear of Enlightenment is Real! Why? Because Everything in the State of True Enlightenment is A HOMO.
That's right everybody, it's the Integrated, or Male-Female Blended SELF! Whoops, shouldn't have told anybody the Truth, heck, is That gonna Hurt! Owwie! That's Right, It's Androgynous. That's what you're Afraid Of: This Androgynous Being-Self is found in the Unknown: It Deals with the Unknown, because it IS the Unknown (read my posts! get some guts: face IT). You Become the Central Light Core of Yourself In This Manner.

Ok, all done. Grasp #1 & #10, and you can prepare to Go Home As Pure Energy (the Transmutation, purpose of Life), instead of 'go home' back to the Void of Unknowing.

Not the End.

Anybody getting the shivvers Now?

Society teaches you not to know this stuff: KILL IT WHEREVER YOU FIND IT!

Notice all the gays coming out, crawling all over 'healthy' society? Hmmmm?????

No: no gay sex is permitted, sorry: that's sandbox stuff. You must learn to become IMPECCABLE.

PS - OK, you can start to 'kill the messenger' now: I sense the hate, the fear, the 'oh no no no!'

This is YOUR TASK, not philosophy 303.

[edit on 18-1-2009 by SS,Naga]

posted on Jan, 18 2009 @ 09:43 AM

Originally posted by MischeviousElf

If you have never seen it before I know you will be quite amazed.

I watched the whole video, and it was pretty interesting. I had seen in other documentaries the story of Tibet being overrun, but not the secret Yoga's and such.

The part I found most amazing was that there were so many highly trained Yogis and such in Tibet, including those who presumably had used their mastery over the weather to prevent attack on a monastery in the past, and no one thought to use that against the Chinese when they came en force.

It seems it would have been a great time to use the supernatural powers, yet none did.

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