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Enlightenment. What is it and how do we know when we have achieved it?

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posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 12:51 PM
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reply to post by psycho81
 


The term empathy has alot more mysticism around it so i rarely use it even though that is exactly what i am discribing. Its entirely logical and explainable.

If you think you can never undertand the emotions of another then empathy cannot be developed.




posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 12:52 PM
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Enlightenment is a perceptional concept of spiritual awareness that is different for each person.
You cant nail it down to a specific event.
Those of us actualy attempting a spiritual journey and noting each happening or experience are learning constantly.
The knowledge of differant dimensions, entities that exist away from the normal boundaries is a form of enlightenment in itself.
Consider this.





wiki.answers.com...



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 12:59 PM
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reply to post by headlightone
 

I Agree.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by Sonya610

Well if they are all about anger and the NWO and how stupid everyone else is....I will step out on the limb and say "not enlightened".


Even science is this way. Scientific inquiry can exclude things, we can eliminate "causes" but we really cannot say what IS the cause. (As there is always the possibility of "hidden variables" or causes we are as yet unable to measure.)

I agree you can say that enlightenment is "not this" but it is impossible to really accurately say what it "is" because language itself is insufficient to act as a descriptor. You can get closer to it, but "the thing itself" remains always just out of reach using language.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 01:05 PM
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reply to post by headlightone
 






The knowledge of differant dimensions, entities that exist away from the normal boundaries is a form of enlightenment in itself.


You may really only be gaining knowledge of somonelses delusion. A clap is a sound. It can be made with several body parts in many combinations. There are alot of people lost in anothers delusion of muti-dimensional entitys..



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by MischeviousElf


There are reports of Yogis who can take lethal amounts of poison and not die or become ill... That's something to think about



I have thought about it. My thoughts are, I wonder how many of these instances have been "controlled" scientifically so that there is no possibility of charlatanism? In the material world, there are material principles we use to "prove" material facts, and I wonder how many Yogi's have consumed poison and lived within these constraints. The one Yogi I have talked to, has said this is nonsense. And, in reading on the subject just before replying I found others who in writing say the same. Now maybe they are just jealous Yogi's who are envious of the other poison drinking Yogi's great powers, or, perhaps like many who claim supernatural power there is some trickery involved.

(Such as the evangelists who hear the voice of God through an earpiece connected to a human on the other end)

There is great money to be made exploiting the spiritual aspirations of others. Not that poison drinking Yogi's are for certain doing this, but it would be my first consideration.


You've piqued my interest Illusions.

I read a book when I was a child called the Amazing Mr Sugar, I think it was either by Wodehouse or Waugh, maybe neither and it is unimportant really other than it relates to the narrators experiences of Yogis in India. I became fascinated by Yogis as a result, and found it amazing that they could train themselves to balance on a stick for days on end or walk over hot coals. I have also met people who practice Prahna, who effectively do not eat a single morsel, at all, with no detriment to their overall health and well-being. There are of course many, many different specialisms within yogism, but all require the training of the body, incredible self-discipline, (much like Shaolin monks), to withstand external 'forces' or to control energy. A little off-topic, but only very slightly, do you not, therefore, believe that the mind can overcome matter?



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by Wertdagf
 


If you keep grounded ask the correct questions and aim them questions towards your higher self or spirit guides their will be no other persons false imagery.
Involve intent, affirmation and the correct wording and apply your intuition
with the answers returned.
Obviously this works for some and not for others.
Its a fact for me that if the experience feels right then trust in it.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
A little off-topic, but only very slightly, do you not, therefore, believe that the mind can overcome matter?


I believe the mind and the body can be trained to do some really amazing things. Biofeedback shows that we can control heartbeat, breathing, body temperature, etc. However, I do not believe the body can be made to violate natural laws, for instance if I shoot a Yogi repeatedly in the head, I expect that Yogi will, in fact, die.

I think regulating many of the bodies functions fall within the parameters of what a body can do. I think within the real range of what a body can do there can be some amazing instances of learning to consciously make things happen within that range. So I dont disbelieve the balancing, temperature controlling, lowering of metabolism so that the need for air, food, etc. is greatly reduced.

However, I was completely unable to come up with any instance of a Yogi actually drinking a lethal dose of poison under controlled circumstances and living.

Now there may be the possibility of someone gaining conscious control over the stomach and intestines to the degree that they could somehow prevent these organs from doing what they do, but, until I see that this has occurred in controlled circumstances, I think it is more reasonable to assume that it is trickery.

There are examples of religious leaders using trickery to convince others that they have supernatural powers and that if you only follow them (and support them financially) you may someday as well. There have been instances of them being caught doing so. I could not find ONE report of a case where a Yogi has consumed a lethal dose of poison in conditions where it is assured that nothing was tampered with and lived. So, I have to consider one more likely than the other.

In the material world, dealing with the purely material, like bodies, the material laws apply. If I were to see such an instance, or hear of one reported by a reputable source, I would change my consideration.

Edit to add,


Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I have also met people who practice Prahna, who effectively do not eat a single morsel, at all, with no detriment to their overall health and well-being.


No offense, but other than self-reporting, how do you know this is the case? There are a few instances known of people who claimed they did not eat, but under controlled circumstances this was not borne out.

en.wikipedia.org...


[edit on 17-1-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
If you think you can never undertand the emotions of another then empathy cannot be developed.

How is that? I would think it would be the exact opposite, no one really knows anyone else's emotions, thoughts, or intentions and when we really understand that we do not know these things, then we can develop empathy.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by cancerian42

Originally posted by Wertdagf
If you think you can never undertand the emotions of another then empathy cannot be developed.

How is that? I would think it would be the exact opposite, no one really knows anyone else's emotions, thoughts, or intentions and when we really understand that we do not know these things, then we can develop empathy.


I dont see where we would disagree with what youve typed. You must think that they can be known before you begin such exploration.

Some move towards such development through a realization that they dont understand anothers point of veiw.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
I dont see where we would disagree with what youve typed. You must think that they can be known before you begin such exploration.

Some move towards such development through a realization that they dont understand anothers point of veiw.

I don't think we can truly know others points of views. We can make educated guesses and observe possibilities, but to actually know, we would have to know everything that the other person knows and we don't. Sometimes people don't even know their own selves.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by cancerian42

Originally posted by Wertdagf
I dont see where we would disagree with what youve typed. You must think that they can be known before you begin such exploration.

Some move towards such development through a realization that they dont understand anothers point of veiw.

I don't think we can truly know others points of views. We can make educated guesses and observe possibilities, but to actually know, we would have to know everything that the other person knows and we don't. Sometimes people don't even know their own selves.


If you cant understand the causation of your own thoughts and emotions.. then you cannot know anothers. Its always starts with understanding yourself. Then having faith that you can understand another.

With enough practice on such educated guesses and observable possiblites you can understand the flow of water down a mountain.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 02:34 PM
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reply to post by Wertdagf
 

Yes, but I think the human mind is more complicated then the flow of water. You would have to factor in every experience since birth, and maybe even before birth if reincarnation is true, and then it just becomes a cycle of causes and effects for infinity, do you think there was a first cause to everything, or do you think that it is a never ending cycle of causes and effects. I think the latter, because there would have to be something to cause the first cause. Therefore, I believe the only way to know the mind of another is to become omniscient.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by SS,Naga
reply to post by cancerian42
 


Ok, here's the link. From your responses to mine, I hardly think it'll have much interest for you. But, maybe somebody else will enjoy.

Wait, went to pull the link, and noticed you'd posted two posts up from the link's poster, so, who knows (maybe you didn't read it?):
www.newadvent.org...
(With appreciation and credit for the link to member Eleleth, from thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...)

[edit on 15-1-2009 by SS,Naga]


No Im sorry I am finding it difficult to read this and understand it. I find after a while my head hurts from the screen glare , maybe I need to print it off. I am having to concentrate so much just to understand what the words mean. It is very heavy and very very in depth. Surely enligtenment does not need to be this difficult to understand?

Thank you anyway.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by cancerian42
reply to post by Wertdagf
 

Yes, but I think the human mind is more complicated then the flow of water. You would have to factor in every experience since birth, and maybe even before birth if reincarnation is true, and then it just becomes a cycle of causes and effects for infinity, do you think there was a first cause to everything, or do you think that it is a never ending cycle of causes and effects. I think the latter, because there would have to be something to cause the first cause. Therefore, I believe the only way to know the mind of another is to become omniscient.


I dont think it is..... and yes you would have to factor in as much known emotional data as possible to make a acurate model. You of course would have to be very skilled at picking up such data. LOL when people discover such "past lives" its from a pshycic that charges 20 dollars.

If the universe is fractal by nature... then the very causal processes that make the reality around us produces more fractals. If that is the case then there was no start. Its been going and will go on for infinity.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by headlightone
Those of us actualy attempting a spiritual journey and noting each happening or experience are learning constantly.
The knowledge of differant dimensions, entities that exist away from the normal boundaries is a form of enlightenment in itself.
Consider this.



wiki.answers.com...





Yes I think you are on to something here. The actual knowledge through PERSONAL experiences, not just reading others accounts and thinking it sounds correct,but actual personal experience of these densities and entities that live in them, is infact a form of enligtenment. It shows you this is not all there is.

I floated above my body many years ago, I was of pure energy with no form, looking down on my body. This one experience proved to me there is much more beyond what we see as the boundaries of our existance within our bodies.

I have SEEN other beings (not spirits or ghosts), this showed me beyond any doubt we are not alone. The being I saw was not from our dimension, of this I am 100% sure. It was this encounter several years ago that made me look beyond our dimension. What I witnessed like the OBE proved beyond any doubt to me there ARE other dimensions.

I did grow spiritually from these two experiences, not over night but over many years, a growth that still continues today.

However, I would not expect a single person to believe me, because until I experienced these two events I doubt Id believe me either. We need and must see these things for ourselves. I see countless wild and outrageous claims on ATS, but I will never go in and ridicule or pass judgement on these claims. Why? because I see how hard it is to show someone something you have seen and they have not.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by headlightone
reply to post by Wertdagf
 


If you keep grounded ask the correct questions and aim them questions towards your higher self or spirit guides their will be no other persons false imagery.
Involve intent, affirmation and the correct wording and apply your intuition
with the answers returned.
Obviously this works for some and not for others.
Its a fact for me that if the experience feels right then trust in it.


Ask questions, aim questions towards your higher self and spirit guides. Im beginning to think these are the ONLY ones to aim your intent at.

Loose fear of all entities, embrace them all into the one with unconditional love but do not seek them to help with intent and affirmations, only speak directly to your higher self, spirit guides and of course the one being who is pure consciousness. (who the entities reside within anyway)

[edit on 17-1-2009 by Mr Green]



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
I dont think it is..... and yes you would have to factor in as much known emotional data as possible to make a acurate model. You of course would have to be very skilled at picking up such data. LOL

Measuring water flow is math. It is calculable. The brain and everything connected to it is not presently calculable or perhaps ever for humanity. You say we would have to factor in as much known emotional data as possible. Why do you say "as possible" if you believe we can know every cause and effect related to a person's life. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds as if you are not sure if it is possible or not.


...when people discover such "past lives" its from a pshycic that charges 20 dollars.

You believe that reincarnation is not possible? Please explain, since you yourself said, no one knows what happens after we die. Is there some logical explanation as how this could not possibly ever happen?



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Green
Ask questions, aim questions towards your higher self and spirit guides. Im beginning to think these are the ONLY ones to aim your intent at.

Loose fear of all entities, embrace them all into the one with unconditional love but do not seek them to help with intent and affirmations, only speak directly to you higher self, spirit guides and of course the one being who is pure consciousness. (who the entities reside within anyway)

But you may not be asking the right questions. I would say listen to everyone's point of view even if you think they are "bad" you might learn something. Everyone has something to teach and everyone has something to learn (at least that is what I have observed). You do not help yourself when you close your mind.



posted on Jan, 17 2009 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by headlightone
 






The knowledge of differant dimensions, entities that exist away from the normal boundaries is a form of enlightenment in itself.


You may really only be gaining knowledge of somonelses delusion. A clap is a sound. It can be made with several body parts in many combinations. There are alot of people lost in anothers delusion of muti-dimensional entitys..



I dont think the clap sound is anything to do with an actual sound made by the body. The sound of a one handed clap will be different for all of us, but as I say its not actually a sound hes making .

From my post above I hope Ive explained why its not delusional to believe in these multi dimensional entities, not if its from personal experience.

What is delusional is to go blindly along with anothers view when you really have no validation your self except what they say.



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