Written by the finger of god? What was ?

reply to post by Goathief


I felt the web wiggling, must be another bible 'scholar'.

So, you admit that the bible is a book with a history of 2000 years or more (molested or not). I'm surprised you didn't date that from, say, the KJV, the invention of the printing press, or some other period like the time of the Masoretes.

Since you state this so definitively, you must understand the nature of the corruption, perhaps you'd like to share that with the rest of us. Tell us, oh scholar, from the early texts, what *exactly* has been corrupted?

Here, let me give you a little help. Was it the story of Genesis? The covenant with Abram? Isaac as the son of promise? Jacob as Israel? The exodus? King David? How about Jerusalem being the site of the temples?

Or is it one of the more fantastic stories like Jonah and the whale or Daniel and the lion's den? How about the conversion of Nebuchadnezzar?

Or is it just the atoning sacrifice of Jesus you have a problem with?

reply to post by moocowman

Do you foresee a further fragmentation of xtianity, as it tries to justify any relevance it believes it has? It would appear that it can no longer hide behind biblical authority as younger people seem to be accepting the bible for what it really is, BS, or at the very least challenging it intellectually.

What is happening is; Christians along with other religious persons are questioning their beliefs. I too was Christian for most of my life, but could not stomach it any longer as I could no longer see, and feel, the love! And I could not take the narrowness and hypocrisy any longer.

I think many are becoming disillusioned. Many throw God out also, while it is not God who is at fault, but the "false" teachers that are controlling the masses.

I am a searcher, hence, question everything! I can no longer fit into any box. So if I can be of some help in assisting others to reason out of their box, I will. I essentially, had to let go of most of my former beliefs to go down this road. It was very freeing but at times difficult.

Religion is no longer working! So the masses that don't choose to be duped any longer are leaving. By the droves! Christianity calls this: apostasy. I call it being set free!

U2u me if you ever care to talk about any of this in more depth!

MP

reply to post by Ichabod

Since you state this so definitively, you must understand the nature of the corruption, perhaps you'd like to share that with the rest of us. Tell us, oh scholar, from the early texts, what *exactly* has been corrupted?

If you truly are asking for scholarly evidence, and are not just having contempt because your beliefs are being challenged, I recommend you read:

"Misquoting Jesus - The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" - Bart Ehrman

For the standard authoritative scholarly account, read:

"The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development and Significance." - Bruce M. Metzger

"Lost Christianities" - Bart Ehrman

"The Mythmaker - Paul and the Invention of Christianity" - Hyam Maccoby

These scholars have had access to the earliest copies (there never were originals of the OT & NT), have you? Can you read Hebrew & Greek? Not from an Interlinear which are all based on the copies of words and again not on the original words.

Are you a Biblical scholar? If not, we need to go to those who are, and those who actually have access to the earliest copies, that we do not.

Another book of interest by a scholar:

"The Jesus Papers" - Michael Baigent

reply to post by MatrixProphet


So, clearly, by your list of citations, you agree with this man that the bible has been corrupted.

Since I just asked a question of someone making a statement, i.e. that the bible has been corrupted, why don't you answer it for us in 2-3 paragraphs or less. Pick any one of the stories I've cited and tell me exactly how you believe it has been corrupted.

Matrix you are doing nothing but leading people from one book of scholars who wrote books (the books of the bible) ... to another book of scholars who did not write them but read them and came to their own opinions of what it means (similar to what we all do with the bible) .and what they do in all the New Versions of that bible etc ...... ..were those scholars who read the earlier scholars work actual eye witness to the events of the days in the time that they were recorded in that bible ?
How is it that their *these new modern day scholars opinions overide the opinions of the actual scholars who wrote those books of the bible ?

reply to post by Ichabod

Since I just asked a question of someone making a statement, i.e. that the bible has been corrupted, why don't you answer it for us in 2-3 paragraphs or less. Pick any one of the stories I've cited and tell me exactly how you believe it has been corrupted.

Oh, but I won't take that experience away from you! The books are written by scholars that are qualified.

I have divine experience and opinion, but you require facts and although I can do it, it will take away from your experience.

reply to post by Simplynoone

How is it that their *these new modern day scholars opinions overide the opinions of the actual scholars who wrote those books of the bible ?

Sweetie, you are missing the point! You don't know who the actual scholars who wrote the Bible are! There is so much contradiction regarding the books that it would take over this thread and many more, to relate. Nothing like doing your own research!

Are you fearful of what you may learn? Try reading these books. I have read all the Christian information from countless writers for all of my life. If it is the truth what these scholars are saying, or at least lets say; 50% correct, wouldn't the love of truth motivate you to discover what God wants everyone to know? Why is this such a fearful act?

What everyone who is religious needs to ask themselves: what do I have to lose by study? By questioning everything? If your faith in your knowledge is secure, then you should have no worry, right? But this is not what I sense from any of you!

I sense fear and anger towards others who dare to question. If we are wrong in your eyes then the truth will come out! I will never quake in questioning, after all, it is what God insists.

"The Truth shall set you free, but first it will make you miserable!"

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

How is it that their *these new modern day scholars opinions overide the opinions of the actual scholars who wrote those books of the bible ?

Sweetie, you are missing the point! You don't know who the actual scholars who wrote the Bible are! There is so much contradiction regarding the books that it would take over this thread and many more, to relate. Nothing like doing your own research!

Are you fearful of what you may learn? Try reading these books. I have read all the Christian information from countless writers for all of my life. If it is the truth what these scholars are saying, or at least lets say; 50% correct, wouldn't the love of truth motivate you to discover what God wants everyone to know? Why is this such a fearful act?

What everyone who is religious needs to ask themselves: what do I have to lose by study? By questioning everything? If your faith in your knowledge is secure, then you should have no worry, right? But this is not what I sense from any of you!

I sense fear and anger towards others who dare to question. If we are wrong in your eyes then the truth will come out! I will never quake in questioning, after all, it is what God insists.

"The Truth shall set you free, but first it will make you miserable!"

Surely you do not think I have not seen all those supposed contradictions that you thought you saw ? >>I certainly have ..but I have found out in digging and cross referencing etc there was no contradictions there ..only when taken out of context .....in context you can get the complete meanings ,....and when you reference you get the rest of the story ...It is a puzzle no doubt about it ..

I spent at least 25 or 30 years reading scripture ...And questioning everything ..(yes everything ) ....And I have read many opinions from the other side ...(those who oppose the scriptures) and I certainly did not get taught by preachers or teachers ..(I spent a whole 6 months maybe in Church and I questioned so much they shunned me ) ............
The rest of those years I spent alone in the scriptures ...out in the country where I had nothing else to read etc ....and the scriptures were opened up to me more than I could ever explain .....and every single day I am learning more from the scriptures everyday ....when I got back into society and got the internet I even did more digging ..into every single ancient text etc that I could get my eyes on ...I wanted a better understanding of everything ..and all I found in reading the opposition is their own biasness (which is just as bad as christian biases are) but still they are so biasedly opposed that they cant even see some truths ...(just like christians are accused of doing ) ....so like you ...I took what I could from it all and came to my own conclusions ..since both sides are biased ...TOO BIASED ...


And I am not afraid of anything ..so your senses are wrong ...

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Ichabod

 

Oh, but I won't take that experience away from you! The books are written by scholars that are qualified.

I have divine experience and opinion, but you require facts and although I can do it, it will take away from your experience.

Qualified by whom? Their readers and publishers? Tickling their itching ears with what they want to hear? Qualified by their peers in the same employment? You do understand that this is quite a business for some people, correct? Anyone can have a bible for free, but I doubt that the folks rewriting scripture would give away their books for free. Rather, they'd require their students to purchase them at 3x the bargain price!

Let's do an instant replay:

1. The guy mocks the bible and believers as if he knows something we don't.
2. I take him to task, indeed sarcastically, by asking him if he is a scholar and can explain or back up his statement.
3. You rush to his defense by attacking me as lacking background or being ignorant of scholarly books on the subject.
4. You wuss out without even the simplest possible explanation and give us some mumbo jumbo about your divine experience and my need for it.

haha - spiritual scientist indeed.

You and many others enjoy telling one side of every story. You cite a handful of books expressing the opinion of these folks without balancing the equation with the scholars who believe otherwise. You don't even acknowledge the fact that academia is a competitive business that blows with the breeze of fame and fortune. Why is this?

Don't any of you cats have a shred of real experience or common sense? Don't you know what a conflict of interest is?

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Sweetie?

You attacked me for a sarcastic tone, now you employ a condescending one yourself? I would have forgiven you for literary sarcasm but this is rather cheap, don't you think?

Let me answer this great mystery for you. You can't tell me how the message has been corrupted precisely because you do not have the originals. You can point to variations in contemporary transcriptions or you can dig up previously unused documents much like the doctors of damnation who introduced new Greek source in c. 1889. You cannot tell me that the story of Jesus is different because the eyewitnesses are gone along with their writings.

What we have is an echo from the past and nobody knows how good or bad it is. So, it's an article of belief either to trust or distrust it. You either believe in the notion of "the misinterpreted recipe" as if playing that idiotic game in elementary school proves much about the transfer of information or you believe that what we have is a faithful transcription of the originals.

As far as your questions about why one doesn't expose themselves to the musings of every charlatan with a publisher, it's a matter of time and focus. Simple as that.

reply to post by Simplynoone


God just " is ", you look in scripture, but scripture is ancient, even to god.

We are always given a direct life line to the infinite, some people choose to study old life line's given to someone else. No telling if what YOU read is real or not.

Explaining god just " is " is complicatated, and I know I should have a golden tablet written by the finger of god with a side not saying " this is for you " ready to give to you beforehand but it doesnt work that way.... just look at the mormons.

You will be spoken to directly but first you have to block out all the non-sense that fills your head.

reply to post by Ichabod

You and many others enjoy telling one side of every story. You cite a handful of books expressing the opinion of these folks without balancing the equation with the scholars who believe otherwise. You don't even acknowledge the fact that academia is a competitive business that blows with the breeze of fame and fortune. Why is this?

I agree about academia, but it doesn't therefore discount everything that they say.

What about "there are NO original manuscripts or texts" that you aren't getting?

reply to post by Ichabod

Sweetie?

You attacked me for a sarcastic tone, now you employ a condescending one yourself? I would have forgiven you for literary sarcasm but this is rather cheap, don't you think?

First of all, this was not meant for you and Simplynoone and I have talked to each other on countless threads. We go way back!! No need for you to protect her, I am not a wolf and she knows it.

What we have is an echo from the past and nobody knows how good or bad it is. So, it's an article of belief either to trust or distrust it. You either believe in the notion of "the misinterpreted recipe" as if playing that idiotic game in elementary school proves much about the transfer of information or you believe that what we have is a faithful transcription of the originals.

Have you read any of my threads? Do you even know what I think? How do I view the Bible? If you put incorrect words in my mouth - I will correct you.

As far as your questions about why one doesn't expose themselves to the musings of every charlatan with a publisher, it's a matter of time and focus. Simple as that.

And why are the religious so predictable? With THAT you settled all the problems with authenticity? You didn't say anything. It was an open ended sentence that doesn't prove or disprove anything.

You will take what you want and use it as a foundation for your whole belief system. That is fine by me. But most of us on ATS are actually looking for accurate truth and know it comes through many venues. It is very typical to want to kill the messenger.

"Men reject their prophets and slay them, But they love their martyrs and honour those whom they have slain." - Dostoyevsky

reply to post by MatrixProphet


If the ancient originals were preserved it would suggest that they'd never been used and/or that at this point in history they are absolute forgeries masquerading as originals. In the U.S. we're keeping the constitution under glass sealed in gas to attempt to preserve it and it's still decaying as are all the artifacts kept in museums.

Instead, we have a documented history of transcription, translation and missing originals. Things that are useful get worn out and have to be regenerated from time to time. You're simply arguing that this regeneration process was unfaithful and I'm arguing that it's faithful.

Also, if they were preserved, it's unlikely that you'd have any more people in agreement than you do today.

reply to post by Ichabod

Instead, we have a documented history of transcription, translation and missing originals. Things that are useful get worn out and have to be regenerated from time to time. You're simply arguing that this regeneration process was unfaithful and I'm arguing that it's faithful.

Also, if they were preserved, it's unlikely that you'd have any more people in agreement than you do today.

Please understand that I believe the Bible was divinely written, just for different reasons than you believe.

We have to remember that most information was transmitted orally. Often nothing was written for decades or longer after all the oral transmissions.

If God wanted to perform the first miracle of inspiring his book with his words he would have done so. He then would have performed the second miracle of; divinely inspiring all his words to actually make it into the Bible with no problems. Both miracles would have been necessary. But he chose not to do so. Thinking minds ponder on this.

Rather than fighting over the scriptures as all religions do, and we see this very evident on ATS, why don't we try to figure out what his motives were, for not performing the first two miracles relating to the Bible?

I was a Bible thumper for most of my life. But I did not live in denial as to its "issues." Searchers won't be blocked from doing so. God wants us to use our gray cells to put 2 & 2 together, and not just follow the masses down the same prim rose lane.

Some of us MUST question as that is how anything gets discovered!! Nothing would ever be invented if everyone went along with the status quo. It takes rebels to defy ignorance and to question everything. I won't go backwards!

Peace.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Ichabod

 

We have to remember that most information was transmitted orally. Often nothing was written for decades or longer after all the oral transmissions.

What a total crock. You're really stumbling around on this now.

You have a book that people have been transcribing for centuries but you evidently believe that at some point just over the horizon, just outside of our view, just beyond our collective memory, there was no written language and that for *decades* no less they were singing songs about the South land as it were. Why do you think they invented written language and how long do you think it took them to rely on this for virtually every thought that they wanted to persist?

Gullibility doesn't begin to describe your dogma.

You say you believe the bible is divinely inspired but that it's message needs enhancement by folks like yourself? God help us. You've probably heard so many stories and read so many conflicting theories about the bible you're totally confused. You sound like the double-minded that James referred to - unstable in all your ways.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Ichabod

 

If God wanted to perform the first miracle of inspiring his book with his words he would have done so. He then would have performed the second miracle of; divinely inspiring all his words to actually make it into the Bible with no problems. Both miracles would have been necessary. But he chose not to do so. Thinking minds ponder on this.

I think you need to work on how you make your points or perhaps sentence structure.

What you want to say is: If God wanted to create the bible perfectly and out of thin air, then he could have spoken it into existence.

Your second point is: He could have chosen to extend the bible by putting all of his words in there.

The way it reads your first point was that he could have created it perfectly. Your second point is that he didn't put everything in there so he needs a second miracle. I don't want a clarification, just to make the point that if you were speaking and spreading this through oral tradition, nobody would know what the hell you just said! hahaha

God doesn't seem to me to be in a habit of doing things that are unnecessary. Neither of these things is necessary. God revealed what is written in the bible to regular human beings and they wrote it down. The fact that maybe he doesn't reveal everything is irrelevant. People can chose to believe it or not as a demonstration of faith or lack thereof.

So, which missing words are you talking about - the ones that he wanted in the bible but that you decided aren't in there? Which ones are those since they aren't in there? You're going to find them for us, right?

I love the glowing terms pseudo-intellectuals use for describing their efforts: using our gray matter, searching, rebel. Ah, so appealing to the lost.

You're a rebel all right, blazing new trails of muddled thinking.

one question i have always asked myself, why does god not speak to us all directly? i know some will say its because we dont listen or chose not to listen, but i can tell you for a fact that i am all ears, please speak up for i cannot hear you!

reply to post by Ichabod


You must be a christian, going by your attitude, a little tactfulness goes a long ways.

Why not try and refute the points made by MP without all the garbage spewing out of your mouth. Rather than attacking " sentence structure ".

If you cant do that, kick the dust off your heels and move on.

reply to post by enduser


God does speak to some of us directly, others just bury their head in scripture.

If you are waiting for god to talk to YOU, then you will be disappointed, YOU have to seek him.