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There is no such thing as a Palestinian people

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posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 11:14 PM
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That's where you and I were wrong to be so optimistic. The genetic study you quote takes the genetic similarities when comparing Jews and Palestinian Arabs to the Welsh So you can see why they were at first thought to be closely related. In fact as it stands Jews are from the north of the fertile crescent, modern day Israel, while the Palestinian Arabs are to the south. Meaning Palestinians are closer to the Arab nations bordering Israel than to Israel itself.



It's not "So you can see why they were at first thought to be closely related"This study done in 2000 concludes that they are related in some way.

All irelevant, you forgot to post the conclusion from your link that agrees with the study from 2000.
You stated.


That is the older study which was clearly disproved. It used the Welsh as a third party to compare both Jews and Palestinian Arabs.


From the very same article you posted


We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula, as is seen in the Arab-specific Eu 10 chromosomes that include the modal haplotypes observed in Palestinians and Bedouin.



Is in agreement with the same study posted by me.
en.wikipedia.org...


the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews. According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula, as is seen in the Arab-specific Eu 10 chromosomes that include the modal haplotypes observed in Palestinians and Bedouin... The study demonstrates that the Y chromosome pool of Jews is an integral part of the genetic landscape of the region and, in particular, that Jews exhibit a high degree of genetic affinity to populations living in the north of the Fertile Crescent.[92]

Also


Eu 10 was the most frequent haplogroup among Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin (table 1), with a low haplotype diversity (h=.82) in both populations. Forty-two percent of the haplotypes and 47% of the chromosomes in Eu 10 were only observed in the two Arab populations. Palestinians had ~42% of their Eu 10 chromosomes in common with Bedouin but had only 11% in common with the other four populations.


Making what I have stated to be true.
What this article states is true.
It proves jews were inhabitants there.

It also proves something else.
About Neolithic inhabitants.Placing Palestinians there also.
en.wikipedia.org...


Paleolithic and Neolithic periods (1 mya–5000 BCE)
See also: Paleolithic and Neolithic
Human remains found at El-'Ubeidiya, 2 miles (3 km) south of Lake Tiberias date back as early as 500,000 years ago.[31][32] The discovery of the Palestine Man in the Zuttiyeh Cave in Wadi Al-Amud near Safad in 1925 provided some clues to human development in the area.[31][33][34]

In the caves of Shuqba in Ramallah and Wadi Khareitun in Bethlehem, stone, wood and animal bone tools were found and attributed to the Natufian culture (c. 12800–10300 BCE). Other remains from this era have been found at Tel Abu Hureura, Ein Mallaha, Beidha and Jericho.[31][35]

Between 10000 and 5000 BCE, agricultural communities were established. Evidence of such settlements were found at Tell es-Sultan, Jericho and include mud-brick rounded and square dwellings, pottery shards, and fragments of woven fabrics.[36][37][38]


What you fail to see is that it in no way proves that modern day inhabitants of palestine were not there, it's something that you fail to see.








Everyone who is just joining us it has been officially proven that the people living in the westbank and gaza are not from the land but Arabs.

Arabs were something else before they were arabs, the study does indicate that before they were arabs they migrated just like the jews.





Pepsi I am getting tired of your BS. If you are not a troll you will contact a mod and schedule a debate between ourselves so we can put this topic to bed.

Well good luck trying to twist articles.
The article provided states that there is a small relation betwen the bolth sides, it states what is what, and it show what group is what.
It's all it does, then history puts the groups there in the same place.
Goodluck changing history.






[edit on 10-1-2009 by pepsi78]




posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 11:15 PM
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reply to post by Founding
 


OP...you are tremendously wrong. The appropriate title for anyone living in the Palestinian area is "Palestinian people"...including the Jewish population. You just don't know what you're talking about.

It's about that simple.



posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 11:21 PM
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reply to post by Founding
 


Going by your logic, there is no such thing as Indians (Native American) people, since there was never a country in what is now the Americas that's known as "India."

Just because the people who have been living there are given a new label doesn't mean that they never existed.



posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 11:24 PM
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Originally posted by Valhall
reply to post by Founding
 


OP...you are tremendously wrong. The appropriate title for anyone living in the Palestinian area is "Palestinian people"...including the Jewish population. You just don't know what you're talking about.

It's about that simple.


You are right.
Of course they were different groups in the same place, as history went along they mixed.The study only shows the roots of each group and where they came from, it in no way indicates that the groups that each came from had another location, they bolth migrated there eraly as specified in history.I guess it';s hard to lose, some just don't know how.


[edit on 10-1-2009 by pepsi78]



posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 11:31 PM
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People with the Jewish religion have been there for what? 3000-4000 years?

People with an Islamic religion have been there 1500-2000 years?


The way I see it the Muslims have just as much right as Jews to live there and vice versa.



posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by drock905
People with the Jewish religion have been there for what? 3000-4000 years?

People with an Islamic religion have been there 1500-2000 years?


The way I see it the Muslims have just as much right as Jews to live there and vice versa.


They are bolth groups that lived there early in history BC, except one of the groups changed religion and changed the name.



posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 11:52 PM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


Why didn't you post the article in its entirety? And may I ask do you have a problem reading English this is not an insult but I don't know why but you completely miss read it. In fact you miss read it to a point where you might as well have just lied.



The full part:


We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula, as is seen in the Arab-specific Eu 10 chromosomes that include the modal haplotypes observed in Palestinians and Bedouin. These haplotypes and their one-step microsatellite neighbors constitute a substantial portion of the total Palestinian (29%) and Bedouin (37.5%) Y chromosome pools and were not found in any of the non-Arab populations in the present study. The peripheral position of the modal haplotypes, with few links in the network (fig. 5), suggests that the Arab-specific chromosomes are a result of recent gene flow. Historical records describe tribal migrations from Arabia to the southern Levant in the Byzantine period, migrations that reached their climax with the Muslim conquest 633–640 a.d.; Patrich 1995). Indeed, Arab-specific haplotypes have been observed at significant frequencies in Muslim Arabs from Sena (56%) and the Hadramaut (16%) in the Yemen (Thomas et al. 2000). Thus, although Y chromosome data of Arabian populations are limited, it seems very likely that populations from the Arabian Peninsula were the source of these chromosomes. The genetic closeness, in classical protein markers, of Bedouin to Yemenis and Saudis (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994) supports an Arabian origin of the Bedouin. The alternative explanation for the distribution of the Arab-specific haplotypes (i.e., random genetic drift) is unlikely. It is difficult to imagine that the different populations in the Yemen and the southern Levant, in which Arab-specific chromosomes have been detected at moderate-to-high frequencies, would have drifted in the same direction.



This will be my last post with you. Good night and good luck. I see you have ignored my call for a debate. I know the truth can be scary some times but you can't hide forever.



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 12:03 AM
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it seems very likely that populations from the Arabian Peninsula were the source of these chromosomes

It's very well they migrated from there? And arabs from the arabian peninsula were always arabs?

What don't you get? they could be from anywhere as long as tribes that are originating from that area migrated early.
Your study as I said does not provide evidence of time of migration, what it does is provide evidence that each group is from somewhere, and gives names to groups.It just happens that groups mentioned there were bolth there in early history? Arabs from the arabian peninsula were not always arabs , they were something else, people migrated.
Modern day palestinians have just the same right as jews there.


The article state that they are mostly part of a group, now I showed you that group migrated there very early , then had hot sex with other groups, and then had hot sex with jews and they all became palestinians.
It's all about having sex and making babies.



[edit on 11-1-2009 by pepsi78]



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 12:17 AM
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reply to post by Founding
 


Regardless of their genetic make-up ,the occupants i.e the Arabs, were removed en masse from the land during Operation Hiram, October 31, 1948.
Hence the debate about the right of return for Palestinian refugees.

Benny Morris Professor of History at the Ben Gurion University of the Negrev in Be`er Sheva, Israel.

Quote from "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited"


One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern Command in Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order originated with Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod, which was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-Gurion visited the headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948]."

source- Haaretz



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
It's very well they migrated from there? And arabs from the arabian peninsula were always arabs?

What don't you get? they could be from anywhere as long as tribes that are originating from that area migrated early.
Your study as I said does not provide evidence of time of migration, what it does is provide evidence that each group is from somewhere, and gives names to groups.


Straight from the article the migration:


Historical records describe tribal migrations from Arabia to the southern Levant in the Byzantine period, migrations that reached their climax with the Muslim conquest 633–640 a.d.; Patrich 1995).



The genetic closeness, in classical protein markers, of Bedouin to Yemenis and Saudis (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994) supports an Arabian origin of the Bedouin.

The alternative explanation for the distribution of the Arab-specific haplotypes (i.e., random genetic drift) is unlikely
.



This proves that the most recent and dominate genes came from Arabs. Now to give you a lesson in genetics and history. Imagine the so-called Palestinians as a soup. Now how do people know what kind of soup is what? Well its called taste, a tomato soup tastes like a damn tomato soup. So how do people know one from another? What happens when the so-called Palestinians share the same language,culture, religion, and genetics as Arabs? They are called Arabs. We are all part of the tree of life. The farther back you look the closer it all becomes. But there are branches to this tree. And the branch of the so-called Palestinians stop being so close to the Jewish branch and others from that area as soon as it became part of the Arab branch. You can look at the so-called Palestinian people as genetic converts.

Only right they have is to Arab land. Final.



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 12:24 AM
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Painted pottery was not made by the Arabian Neolithic people though coarse red ware may have been manufactured by them in the Central Gulf region. The stone tools of the Arabian Neolithic are different from the Ubaid material -- tending to be made from shorter flakes which have been chipped on both sides. This local tool-kit is called the Arabian Bifacial Tradition ...



And then part of those people migrated early in to pre-history "AT THE TIME WHEN THEY WERE NOT ARABS"migrated in to a place called today Israel.


en.wikipedia.org...


Paleolithic and Neolithic periods (1 mya–5000 BCE)
See also: Paleolithic and Neolithic
Human remains found at El-'Ubeidiya, 2 miles (3 km) south of Lake Tiberias date back as early as 500,000 years ago.[31][32] The discovery of the Palestine Man in the Zuttiyeh Cave in Wadi Al-Amud near Safad in 1925 provided some clues to human development in the area.[31][33][34]

In the caves of Shuqba in Ramallah and Wadi Khareitun in Bethlehem, stone, wood and animal bone tools were found and attributed to the Natufian culture (c. 12800–10300 BCE). Other remains from this era have been found at Tel Abu Hureura, Ein Mallaha, Beidha and Jericho.[31][35]

Between 10000 and 5000 BCE, agricultural communities were established. Evidence of such settlements were found at Tell es-Sultan, Jericho and include mud-brick rounded and square dwellings, pottery shards, and fragments of woven fabrics.[36][37][38]

Making it logical for you to say, oh wait they are arabs, so what?
They migrated there early the same as jews have done?
So what is you point?
What is your logic?
I can't understand.

They migrated there, and then they became arabs, like the whole area did, and changed religion like the whole area did.

Your article does not place people on the map, all it does is just provides facts on what is each group and where the roots come from.

I don't think you would be so naive to think that jews are natives there?They done the same, they migrated early there.


[edit on 11-1-2009 by pepsi78]



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 12:26 AM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


Please refer to my post above and stop setting up straw man arguments.



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by Founding
reply to post by pepsi78
 


Please refer to my post above and stop setting up straw man arguments.

I just did that, Arabs from the arabian peninsula known as neolithic people at the time migrated there in pre-history.Making your article irelevant.

They are arabs? So what?What is your point? As long as they migrated early I see no problem.Jews have done the same , migrated there, there you go.



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 12:34 AM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


Sorry but we are talking about huge genetic shifts. Genetic evidence does not lie unless you have a new study that disproves mine. The recent migration of Arabs has shifted any claim the so-called Palestinian people had.

As it stands the Jews are the only ones with a solid genetic and historic claim to the land of Israel.



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 12:41 AM
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Sorry but we are talking about huge genetic shifts. Genetic evidence does not lie unless you have a new study that disproves mine.

I'm not, I'm using yours.Genetic evidence does not lie yes, they migrated from what today is arabian peninsula and were there early just like the jews.


The recent migration of Arabs has shifted any claim the so-called Palestinian people had.

As it stands the Jews are the only ones with a solid genetic and historic claim to the land of Israel.



No you are twisting things again.Ohh boy.From your source.



We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements.

Only the aditional are more recent.The rest were there, read your article.
Making Palestinians right to be there.
Deal with it.You lose dude.


[edit on 11-1-2009 by pepsi78]



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 12:49 AM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 



We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements.


Funny what happens when you don't thoroughly read something. Again I have disproved you. Anything else


Just because they shared a weak link during the stone age does not make up for a huge genetic and cultural shift of Arab genes and cultural/language.



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 12:52 AM
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Just because they shared a weak link during the stone age does not make up for a huge genetic and cultural shift of Arab genes and cultural/language.

It's not about sharing a link , it's about sharing the same area in early BC placing bolth groups there.



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 12:53 AM
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What makes you so sure they only shared a "weak" link in the distant past? Were those genetic tests around then to prove your statement?

To rely on genetic samples of only the last generation or two is hardly any solid proof that they cannot be related.

In fact, that analysis would only confirm of the diversity of today, not of 100 years go or 1000 years ago and further back.



Cheers!!!!



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 01:01 AM
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I think he is confusing things, I'm not trying to go in and show that they are somehow connected, they are , people mixed but that is not what I'm trying to explain.What I'm trying to explain to him is that it does not matter where the genes come from as long as those genes were present in early history in what today is Israel.He insists they are arabs, and I insist they are arabs, but I insist that those arabs held some other name back then and the arabs were there as tribal people.

They evetualy mixed , not getting in to that.




[edit on 11-1-2009 by pepsi78]



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 01:05 AM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


Ok I want to you go up to the scientific community and try to make a claim from the stone age. It is the dumbest proposal on earth. There is no human alive today that is completely in line with someone from the stone age. All that proves is that SOME of the so-called Palestinian people share ONE or TWO genes with early stone age inhabitants. This is no basis for a claim to land and it would be thrown out of the UN and any respectable court. As the genetic evidence states people living in the westbank and gaza are Arabs. Do they not speak the same language, culture and have the same genes? Why do you think the Article calls them Palestinian ARABS. Only the Jews have a cultural, historical, religious, and genetic claim to the land. The so-called Palestinians only have a very weak genetic link to the STONE AGE.

That is so stupid to say, "hey my maybe one of my people was around here during when humans used STONES so I'm going to terrorist bomb you." I'm sorry if you are Palestinian but your people do not have a legitimate claim to the land.





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