There is no such thing as a Palestinian people

Originally posted by Alpha_Magnum


Not even possible since the Jews who are the Israelis were "created" by God. It is then impossible for them to be descended from ANYTHING at all. God created Adam and ......etc.

Just so we remember what the Israelis are in fact claiming then consider that Israel is both a place and a religion. Naturally the smart bet is on evolution and so everyone is related out of Africa.

So your God only created Jews? What happend to the infamous line "God created man in his own image"? Are you saying that God discriminates? Are you saying that all other human beings who are not Jewish were alien or just came out of nowhere?

Oh let me guess...all other species of the human race were created by Satan..right?

Wow..and I thought the OP had an extremely narrow frame of mind!!


Cheers!!!!

[edit on 12-1-2009 by RFBurns]

I believe your correct but then at some point in world history there was no such thing as an American or English or Iranian etc Also, when I was growing up in Northern Ireland I wasn't Irish or British I was called a 'Catholic' a handy way of referencing which part of the political divide I was meant to exist. See how this sort of label could happen - anywhere?

reply to post by Alpha_Magnum


Excellent link, very well written and informed. The thing is, while the article points out that beginning of the discovery of oil resources in the Middle East, exploration for oil around the globe was just beginning, and Britain had no idea how much oil was in the Middle East at that time in history, and Middle Eastern oil would not become such a huge factor until the fifties. The article also fails to mention the growing influence of the U.S.. The U.S. was at the time out producing Britain and Germany both in coal, steel, and oil. The U.S. was already far ahead of the game, and had considerable oil resources. The rise of the U.S. as a global power had long been predicted. It is a shame what was done to Germany in WW I. The world was a different place then. Competition for world dominance was much more out in the open.

In grade school I was taught that the assassination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand was the spark that started WW I, but the war itself was more about containing the growing power of Kaiser Wilhelm and Germany. It was about who was going to continue to be the pre-eminent power in Europe. The Middle East was only one of the prizes up for grabs, dominance over Europe and the seas was much more important at the time.

Oil was just emerging as the extremely valuable resource that it would become. Yes, Britain was the first to realize the advantages of oil powered ships, and that was one of the reasons they defeated the Germans in naval battles. Germany's ships in WW I were powered by coal, while Britain's were powered by oil. Still at that time, oil drilling technology was just beginning and no one had any idea how much oil was around the globe, and no reason to believe that oil would not be found abundantly all over the globe.

The goals towards the Middle East then were much more about stability.

You made the crack about the tooth fairy, so don't cry foul when I make a crack back. Sorry, but your earlier avatar creeped me out, so I made the comment. Popeye is not on steroids, he is into natural good foods like spinach, a true champion of good eating.

reply to post by Founding


Is there some reason you're ignoring my post?

The Palestinians are descendants of the Philistines and therefore have an historical claim to the land.

And I posted a news/research link that shows that the Palestinians,Jews,Lebanese etc are all related genetically.

You are also ignoring the fact that Arab=Muslim only in the modern world.In the past it = Jews,Christians and many others.Modern interpretation of a word cannot be used to understand the past.


The word Arab was first used during the reign of the Assyrian Empire in the 9th century BC.If you look at this map

en.wikipedia.org...:Map_of_Assyria.png

you will see that your claim of

In fact as it stands Jews are from the north of the fertile crescent, modern day Israel, while the Palestinian Arabs are to the south. Meaning Palestinians are closer to the Arab nations bordering Israel than to Israel itself.

is correct only by modern standards.In the past the Jews were closer to the land you wrongly associate with all Arabs.


And EU 10 is part of Haplogroup J.And certain Jewish groups such as the Ashkenazi Jews,Sephardic Jews and Jewish Kurds are in this group,along side various Arab people's.Which means they are genetically linked.



(Edited to add)

From the link you yourself provided.

We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula, as is seen in the Arab-specific Eu 10 chromosomes that include the modal haplotypes observed in Palestinians and Bedouin. These haplotypes and their one-step microsatellite neighbors constitute a substantial portion of the total Palestinian (29%) and Bedouin (37.5%) Y chromosome pools and were not found in any of the non-Arab populations in the present study. The peripheral position of the modal haplotypes, with few links in the network (fig. 5), suggests that the Arab-specific chromosomes are a result of recent gene flow.

www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov...


Note the bold type.
'Mostly' does not mean 'all' recent migration of 'Arabs' is from the Arabian peninsular.
And if you go back far enough,you see that some the Palestinians and Jews are related.In this case,the early Neolithic period.


[edit on 12-1-2009 by DantesLost]

reply to post by DantesLost


Thank you!! I was going to re-post those links you provided when I was asked to provide links, but I only refered to the ones I liked up to and hoped that you would return to re-highlight those excellent references you had provided. And you did!

Read em and weap OP. Kind of hard to discredit factual historical record.



Cheers!!!!

Originally posted by ravenshadow13

Originally posted by Moreonethananyone
reply to post by Spaxz

 

Thats not intirely accurate,when the Jews gained statehood, the palistinains were offered the same but refused if the Jews were getting it to.

Hey do you think you could find a source for that? Please???

That is pretty much common knowledge though I will try and find sources.

There is only one race, the human race. It is divided into ethnic groups. Geographical lines seperate nations but not ethnic groups.

reply to post by RFBurns


You're welcome.

With certain members you have to repeat yourself because they try to ignore any post that they can't answer and refutes their p.o.v.

Some just can't admit that their argument is wrong.I have no problem with doing that.I had to do the very thing a cpl of weeks ago on another thread.

A little research goes a long way.

Its not byond reality that today's Israeli peoples and today's Palestine peoples are distant cousins and most likely, if it were possible to trace family lineage, to find many of them fighting each other right now, are fighting their own relatives, and it would not surprise me one bit that they too realize that..both the Israeli's and Palestinians.

But some people have to prove this isn't true.
And we all know why.Which is kinda sad and pathetic.



[edit on 12-1-2009 by DantesLost]

reply to post by RFBurns


LOL

How did you ever get the idea that I believe in any God? You and I have no argument at all. I pointed out that since the OP is now citing DNA it is in direct conflict with the Jewish claim that God created them. To even refer to DNA requires a firm belief in Evolution and science. The Jews claim that Moses parted the Red Sea. The point is that the original poster can not have it both ways. He is attempting to use evolutionary sciences (from tainted sources) to verify the Jewish peoples claim that they are God's chosen people.

It is a "wild assertion" at best by the OP claiming that any information gleaned from a Hebrew site, who's people claim that their God created woman kind from Adams rib and that their genetic tests prove that they the Jews are the rightful possessor of Palestine...na na na na. By they way I think those results are all in reverse since all of us came from Africa and moved out since this is what evolution shows. As time progresses genetic markers typically show that people with different markers breed.

Originally posted by Founding
reply to post by Netzar

 

Exactly my point, people fail to understand that the people living in the Westbank and Gaza (known as Palestinians) are nothing more than proxy combatants used by Arab nations. What better way to continue the struggle against a sovereign nation then to have a group of stranded refugees fighting for your cause. Did you know that the king of Jordan is married to a Palestinian woman? There is no difference at all between the people bordering Israel, the Arabs, and the so-called Palestinian people.

Indeed... I sometime even wonder if there's any kind of secret puishment that permit to some dark Emir to sent his thieves and other criminals to the front...

Genetic evidence proves that the most recent and dominate (because the Y-chromosome is only half of the 23 chromosomes) genes in the so-called Palestinian people are of Arabic origin. The people currently living in the westbank are closer to the south of the fertile crescent (Saudi Arabia) then they are to the north (Israel). By genetic testing it has been proved that Jews belong to the north of the fertile crescent which comprises modern day Israel. Thus, you must ask yourself well if there is no difference between the Palestinian people and Arabs what claim do they have to commit acts of terrorism?

If Israel never existed there would never be a nation called Palestine. The land of Israel would clearly be divided between Syria, Egypt, and Jordan.

Look to my original post (OP) for the reference and genetic links.

Yeah, thanks for these info and stressing it, - hadn't read yet. This all pretty much ends all debate. We're confronted there with a HUGE CONSPIRACY, at the bottom of which are nagging shame, hypocrisies and bad faith from Europa (obsessed with its own crimes in Shoah) and US (sort of "levier" against Israel, a way to keep It somewhat under the boot). I recently heard some politician evoking the case, and as all conclusions stated that "such a people just needs a country" : THAT always IS the CLIMAX of all public statement about "Palestine" - like everybody actually KNEW behind the curtain that all that affair was merely just a scam, to the point of always escaping all debate through such plainly pathetic affirmations made to neturalize all serious, ethical analysis of history and sociology that surrounds such a fairy tale...




[edit on 12/1/2009 by Netzar]

reply to post by putnam6


Thanks! Yeah, it is really interesting and I didn't actually know that!



Note: God and DNA don't mix so this thread is kind of funny.
I'm on the DNA side of it all. We all know that the Jews' argument for being given the land by God won't fly.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


Please don't listen to magnum he is going off on some stupid tangent. Nobody is talking about god giving land to the Jews. The whole thread that I started is only coming from a genetic and political view.


To the others who think they have "figured it out", I have already gone over every post you make. Pepsi and I have already debated all the facets and each one I clearly proved him wrong. If you are having some trouble understanding the genetic side of the debate please ask someone with some sort of knowledge before you start making your own assumptions.

To the others who think they have "figured it out", I have already gone over every post you make. Pepsi and I have already debated all the facets and each one I clearly proved him wrong.

That is just your opinion
Dante just provided the same information as me.
When the information is provided to you then you say "there is no evicence" and it is provided from your own source too.

If you are having some trouble understanding the genetic side of the debate please ask someone with some sort of knowledge before you start making your own assumptions.

It seems you are the last to understand anything from that site.

-EU10 was present in modern day israel from the stone age period.
-Alot of jews are EU10
-EU10 mixed and created individuality

And it's all there black and white in the source you provided.It has been provided by me and by others to you, you can either accept it or refuse it.

I'm going to quote you again so you understand.

The full part:

We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula, as is seen in the Arab-specific Eu 10 chromosomes that include the modal haplotypes observed in Palestinians and Bedouin. These haplotypes and their one-step microsatellite neighbors constitute a substantial portion of the total Palestinian (29%) and Bedouin (37.5%) Y chromosome pools and were not found in any of the non-Arab populations in the present study. The peripheral position of the modal haplotypes, with few links in the network (fig. 5), suggests that the Arab-specific chromosomes are a result of recent gene flow. Historical records describe tribal migrations from Arabia to the southern Levant in the Byzantine period, migrations that reached their climax with the Muslim conquest 633–640 a.d.; Patrich 1995). Indeed, Arab-specific haplotypes have been observed at significant frequencies in Muslim Arabs from Sena (56%) and the Hadramaut (16%) in the Yemen (Thomas et al. 2000). Thus, although Y chromosome data of Arabian populations are limited, it seems very likely that populations from the Arabian Peninsula were the source of these chromosomes. The genetic closeness, in classical protein markers, of Bedouin to Yemenis and Saudis (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994) supports an Arabian origin of the Bedouin. The alternative explanation for the distribution of the Arab-specific haplotypes (i.e., random genetic drift) is unlikely. It is difficult to imagine that the different populations in the Yemen and the southern Levant, in which Arab-specific chromosomes have been detected at moderate-to-high frequencies, would have drifted in the same direction.

A)

We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements.


Meaning that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs comes from the early Neolithic inhabitants





B)

The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula, as is seen in the Arab-specific Eu 10 chromosomes that include the modal haplotypes observed in Palestinians and Bedouin.

The early lineagages (that are the most palestinians)look at point A is related to the jews and only the recent migrations were mostly from the arabian peninsula.I would like to make a quote here also about the arabian peninsula.ISRAEL IS PART OF THE ARABIAN PENINSULA.



C)


Historical records describe tribal migrations from Arabia to the southern Levant in the Byzantine period, migrations that reached their climax with the Muslim conquest 633–640 a.d.; Patrich 1995). Indeed, Arab-specific haplotypes have been observed at significant frequencies in Muslim Arabs from Sena (56%) and the Hadramaut (16%) in the Yemen (Thomas et al. 2000).

This meaning the migrations in recent times, not the most.
Refering to it as the climax for the recent migratrion overview and not making refrence to what was there already.It just states when the recent migration had an increase.

reply to post by Founding

To the others who think they have "figured it out", I have already gone over every post you make. Pepsi and I have already debated all the facets and each one I clearly proved him wrong. If you are having some trouble understanding the genetic side of the debate please ask someone with some sort of knowledge before you start making your own assumptions.

Have you?

Really?

You have yet to address this one point,and its very important.

Many Palestinians are genetically descended from the Philistines.
So even if you want to ignore research which shows that some Palestinian and Jewish groups are related,you cannot ignore the historical fact that the Philistines lived in the land of Canaan before the Israelites got there.

Which means the claim for land rights is just as strong for the Palestinians as it is for the Jews.

Originally posted by Alpha_Magnum
This is an interesting thread. It fails to account for the reality that it was in fact the British who took the entire area from the Ottoman Empire (The Turks) who held that area for 700ish years prior to the British. Ironically, the British proclaimed that area (through the League of Nations) the British Mandate for Palestine. In fact it looked like this (I see no area named Israel in this map)...
upload.wikimedia.org...[/im]
[edit on 11-1-2009 by Alpha_Magnum]

Didn't the British refer to the Jews as Jewish Palestinians in all their legal documents?

Originally posted by Founding
reply to post by ravenshadow13

 

Please don't listen to magnum he is going off on some stupid tangent. Nobody is talking about god giving land to the Jews. The whole thread that I started is only coming from a genetic and political view.


To the others who think they have "figured it out", I have already gone over every post you make. Pepsi and I have already debated all the facets and each one I clearly proved him wrong. If you are having some trouble understanding the genetic side of the debate please ask someone with some sort of knowledge before you start making your own assumptions.

Now if your disinfo was not bad enough you are calling members by name to ignore me of all people. This must be a violation of the ATS TOS

Just like "Palestinians" is an invention of recent times, Israel is too.

Whats the point? None. Today both the idea of "Israel" and the idea of "Palestinians" exists. Get used to it.

reply to post by Founding
Short,sweet, accurate,factual.Thanks for the post,ofcourse some people will argue w/ it inspite of the facts,they will also cut off their nose to spite their own face but there's nothin anyone can do about that.Ignorance can be corrected w/a willingness to learn,stupid is just being ignorant on purpose.Modern palestanians are refugees or decendents of lebaneese,jordanian or syrian parentage.Jews are not a religon,they are decendents of a man called Judah.

reply to post by DantesLost
Sorry about this but are in error,the philistines were a seafaring people from the area around crete,they invaded canan (the same method used by most nations that now controll land that they call theirs) & started conquering the various tribes including some of the israeli tribes(who were already there) before they were beaten by a coalition of cananite & israeli tribes.That didn't end their fued but it irreversably weakened the philistines as a major player.These are not the same as todays modern palestanians.