There is no such thing as a Palestinian people

reply to post by Founding



I think there is already a debate going on.

Im not so sure that I would agree with the assertion that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people based on a few disgruntled old foggies and DNA analysis of recent years. Which really doesnt matter..for the following reasons.

1. If we are to use DNA genetic analysis as a basis to determine the exsistance of a declared peoples, then we would have one serious major problem right here in the USA, not to mention just about every nation on this entire planet as well. (Does this mean we can finally acknowledge that there is 1 peoples...the "HUMAN" peoples?)

2. The historical record, both non-biblical and biblical, state that there is a Palestinian people, an Arab people, a Jewish people, an Egyptian people, as well as others. Tho Im not any religious fanatic by any of the sort, I dont dismiss historical record regardless of its origin.

What I wonder is what a Palestinian would say about this topic. Would they also agree that his/her people does not exsist?

Again, if we are to use DNA genetic liniage as a basis for declaring the exsistance of a peoples, then no one can claim to be of a peoples then. No one.

Which that might not be such a bad idea...perhaps it would be the first step for the people of the entire world to finally understand that we are all of 1 family of peoples, called the human race.



Cheers!!!!


[edit on 11-1-2009 by RFBurns]

So, what some of have been saying, that there was no Palestine, and thus Palestinians, is more or less true.

Which would continue the millennia-old tradition of loss of former lands be conquest, ie: Normans, AngloSaxons, Britons, for example, in other nations.

Thus, the partitioned lands of 1948, and the subsequent wars in 1948-49, 1967, 1973, etc., Israel won a vastly increased territorial expanse, which under treaty with Egypt some of those lands were returned.

So if I understand this correct, the argument that there are Palestinians is a ruse to achieve political purposes.

Typical.

reply to post by dooper


Unfortunately the world didnt begin in 1948, nor did the conflict between those tribes in the middle east. It began a long time ago in a land far far away.


Cheers!!!!

reply to post by RFBurns


So very true, RF, but those who are fighting Israel will have everyone believe that the genesis of this problem is the creation of Israel in 1948, when lands belonging to Palestinians - were stolen!

BS!

reply to post by dooper


Speaking hostorical, by genetics and by name, they have every right to be there.The jews do too.So why the ocupation, why? and the settlelmets and the abuse that is going on there for tens of years.And after all of this things happen Israel comes out and says , we are only defending.

Upon closer inspection the OP has initiated a topic that should be deleted or locked for several reasons.

1. The title, There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, is inflammatory and created in order to provoke a response from the posters that is not in the true spirit of or nature of a discussion.
   
2. The referenced source text is found on a site called www.masada2000.org and on it's index page is this quote...
   

   
   "The land of Israel belongs to God, and He has decided to give it to the Jewish nation,
   in accordance with the covenant sealed on Mount Sinai, a covenant that no other nation
   was willing to undertake. After a long exile, we've returned home. We bear no malice toward anyone
   and seek no harm to anyone. But we will not surrender any portion of our land to foreign powers,
   and if foreigners rise up against us to destroy us, we will fight against them and,
   with God's help, we will destroy them."

   
   This quote assumes that there is some form of god or creator and this god has excluded all non Jews. I don't have to elucidate as to why this is a problem due to the racial and religious bias it creates.
   
3. The referenced site like masada2000 is on its face slanted against Palestine and all one need do is go to it and read it. It draws conclusions that are not based in fact but on a religion that consists of fables like Moses parting the Red Sea or Noah managed to get 2 of every animal in the world on an ark along with enough food and water for all on board for 40 days and nights. Sites like Wiki can and are able to be edited and are not considered scholarly resources.
   
4. The thread gets into DNA and so causes racial and religious stereotyping. Two posters go back and fourth and solve nothing since the proof they speak of is theory at best.
   
5. The Israelis themselves have indicated that they are fighting Hamas who are a self proclaimed creation of Israel. Israel has stated in the media that they will give "Aid to the Palestinians" during this process. The point being that the Israelis themselves have admitted that Palestinians do in fact EXIST, thusly disproving the summation made in the OPs original post.
   
6. The OP refers to Arabs as "These People" and this is the OP's own arrogance and in fact a derogatory way to talk about any people.
   

In addition to all of this the OP posted a reply to "masonwatcher" that said the following...

A new pathetic low. I'm going to have to report this. If you like you can start your own thread with that subject in mind.

I don't see how that threat does not constitute a personal attack (ad hominem) to "masonwatcher" and that member does not need the OPs permission to start another thread.

PAX

added a point in edit


[edit on 11-1-2009 by Alpha_Magnum]

reply to post by RFBurns


1. You cannot any way shape or from use America as a analogy for the situation in Palestine. By doing so you are setting up a strawman logical fallacy.

2. DNA is a very important claim. It was found that the people occupying the westbank and gaza are no different than their Arab neighbors. Meaning these people came from the south of the middle east which is modern day Saudi Arabia and so on.

So, then ask your self what and who are the so-called Palestinian people? They call themselves a sovereign people politically and historically. Well the historic claim is bunk because we know the people did not gain a national identity until Arafat. And without a historical claim what kind of political claim might they have? That they settled part of the land? Or maybe they they are the decedents of the peoples who built civilizations on this land like the Canaanites and philistines. All lies proven by genetics. And so once you boil down to the truth what do you come to? The fact stands that they are a refugee people used and exploited by all the surrounded countries. Especially Israel's Arab neighbors. These people could just as easily go back to Jordan (the king of Jordan is married to a Palestinian women) and the rest of the neighboring countries. They could also except a UN partition plan that gives them the westbank and gaza and live peacefully. But what do they choose to do? Elect a terrorist government that's fundamental charter is to destroy Israel. Bull#.

I quoted before, rhose who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Originally posted by Founding
reply to post by pepsi78

 

Do you want to debate yes or no?

You come with a source from research done and supported by Israel.
You present a page where the people done the research avoid and use terms to not call directly the palestinians inhabitants.Instead they use terms like neolithic people or arabian peninsula.

In the end they do post data because it's a research and in that data it shows that arabs are different from one to another because tribes mixed
and became distinctive.


In the end with enough study and reasearch it can be shown that even if the article avoids naming people exept for the Jews of course it can be concluded from study of what the arabian peninsula is and what neolithic people are, palestinians do belong there.

You have been trolling, you post the same stuff that does not conclude that the palestinians do not belong there.All it does is show what arabs are and that is about it and then you come out and state look what they are, they are arabs and they came from there. So what? As long as it can be shown that migrations happened as early as stone age in what today is Israel then you got no arguments.


I want to see in your article where is states that EU10 did not migrate in to that area.So what if they are EU10?

So we find out that some people are from a branch and others are from another branch, and the people that are from the EU10 branch have other branches as well to make them apart from another there for creating other groups, Jordanians, Palestinians , Egyptians and so on.

reply to post by pepsi78


I am stunned by the number of people who are unfamiliar with the benefits and disadvantages of conquest.

When Side A, B, C, D, and E attack Side ONE, they are supposed to win. If they win, then Side ONE loses its land.

If Side ONE wins, and takes over territory of A, B, C, and D, then that territory now is the territory of Side ONE.

The losers can be mad, but that's the way it's been done since the beginning of time. Every single national border has at some time in the past - been determined by force.

If you don't like being conquered, you move. Pick another side. Or, blend in with the conquerors.

To continue to fight a fight that has been lost for decades is indicative of stupidity. No other explanation.

reply to post by dooper


Are you are implying that the Gaza inhabitants should pack up and go home?

reply to post by Alpha_Magnum


By all means give this thread up to moderator review. I am tired of the pro-Arab masses swarming every little single thread that questions the so-called Palestinian situation. I have asked pepsi FIVE times to debate on the question of the genes found among the so-called Palestinian people. FIVE times he has done noting but repeat the very same argument I have already put to rest. (and I bet you 20 dollars that after I make this post he will REPEAT him self again, and not stand up to the debate challenge. That is what I call trolling.) And what did masonwatcher do but post on a topic that was completely irrelevant and already started on another thread. And look at all the stars he got for not sticking on subject. Pathetic.

I wish that a level headed mod would could look post by post and settle this issue once and fore all.

reply to post by Alpha_Magnum


You apparently didn't read what I posted. Try it again. Read slower if that helps.

Originally posted by Founding

1. You cannot any way shape or from use America as a analogy for the situation in Palestine. By doing so you are setting up a strawman logical fallacy.

Why not? Is there a true genetically viable US American? Not including Native Americans because they were already here long before the USA was founded.

Originally posted by Founding
2. DNA is a very important claim. It was found that the people occupying the westbank and gaza are no different than their Arab neighbors. Meaning these people came from the south of the middle east which is modern day Saudi Arabia and so on.

Which is what others have been saying to you since page 1. Those peoples over there, Israeli's included, as well as the Palestinians, are in fact related through DNA genetic traits, centuries of it.

Originally posted by Founding
So, then ask your self what and who are the so-called Palestinian people? They call themselves a sovereign people politically and historically. Well the historic claim is bunk because we know the people did not gain a national identity until Arafat. And without a historical claim what kind of political claim might they have? That they settled part of the land? Or maybe they they are the decedents of the peoples who built civilizations on this land like the Canaanites and philistines. All lies proven by genetics. And so once you boil down to the truth what do you come to? The fact stands that they are a refugee people used and exploited by all the surrounded countries. Especially Israel's Arab neighbors. These people could just as easily go back to Jordan (the king of Jordan is married to a Palestinian women) and the rest of the neighboring countries. They could also except a UN partition plan that gives them the westbank and gaza and live peacefully. But what do they choose to do? Elect a terrorist government that's fundamental charter is to destroy Israel. Bull#.

I quoted before, rhose who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Ok I think I see where your comming from....absolutely nowhere.

For one, your mingling bits and pieces of historical record that clearly fit your point of view, but ignoring and completely leaving out the rest of the historical record. Second, if you really think that it is all genetic lies, then why are you double stancing here in first saying the DNA genetic trait is an important point, yet right there in the same post, you then state it is all genetic lies. Are you saying that the bible is lying? Are you saying that 5,000 years of historical record is a lie?

I also think that the previous poster is spot on. Your source is heavily biased and therefore IMO, is not a viable source to clearly prove that there is no Palestinian people.

Those folks over there clearly call themselves Palestinian. The holy bible even states that the Palestinian people exsist, have exsisted, and continue to exsist.

Israel also acknowledges the Palestinian people, and as the previous poster pointed out, Israel even offers help to the Palestinian people.

Well I dont intend to try to convince you of what you believe, nor do I intend to dive into the endless round and round going on. As far as you and I are concerned, we can agree to disagree and I will leave the rest up to you and whomever else wants to ride the merry go round.



Cheers!!!!

reply to post by RFBurns


I'm sorry if I compressed everything but I'm so sick of arguing. If you want to know the full story read from the first post on the first page and so on. thank you.

Originally posted by Founding
reply to post by Alpha_Magnum

 

By all means give this thread up to moderator review. I am tired of the pro-Arab masses swarming every little single thread that questions the so-called Palestinian situation. I have asked pepsi FIVE times to debate on the question of the genes found among the so-called Palestinian people. FIVE times he has done noting but repeat the very same argument I have already put to rest. (and I bet you 20 dollars that after I make this post he will REPEAT him self again, and not stand up to the debate challenge. That is what I call trolling.) And what did masonwatcher do but post on a topic that was completely irrelevant and already started on another thread. And look at all the stars he got for not sticking on subject. Pathetic.

I wish that a level headed mod would could look post by post and settle this issue once and fore all.

The thread (YOU STARTED IT) claims that, "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people" That does not question the Palestinian situation as you just said at all. On the contrary it insists that there are no Palestinians at all and then you go on and mention the "Palestinian Situation"

How can there be a "Palestinian Situation" if there are no Palestinians?? Tic tock, tic tock

[edit on 11-1-2009 by Alpha_Magnum]

[edit on 11-1-2009 by Alpha_Magnum]

reply to post by Alpha_Magnum


Oh your such a smart one!!!

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. To fully understand the current situation in Gaza we must look at the Palestinian people as an extension of the Arab nations bordering Israel. I am coming from a pragmatic and political viewpoint, void of any so-called bunk conspiracy theories (Zionism/World Jewry).

Anything else?

reply to post by Founding

I am tired of the pro-Arab masses swarming every little single thread that questions the so-called Palestinian situation.

There is no such thing as a Palestinian people

So what one is the truth?

reply to post by Alpha_Magnum


OK obviously your baiting and trolling me. If you do not know what the words "so-called" mean than I cannot help you with your language problems....

Originally posted by Founding

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. To fully understand the current situation in Gaza we must look at the Palestinian people as an extension of the Arab nations bordering Israel. I am coming from a pragmatic and political viewpoint, void of any so-called bunk conspiracy theories (Zionism/World Jewry).

Anything else?

Who is the "I" in that quote? What position is the "Zionism/World Jewry" comming from? A neutral prospective?

What part of history is being forgotten that this "I" is saying is being forgotten? Is the history only covering from the years of 1948 by chance?

Can you provide a true neutral point of view that also shares the same ideology of the Palestinian people just being an extension of Arab nations?

Who are the Arabs? How many different Arabs are there? Are they also some extension of some other nation?

What extension nation does the Israeli's come from? Are there any real Israeli peoples? Are they Jewish? Hebrew? Palestinian? Arab? Muslim? Islam? Egyptian? Combination of all the above?

Seems to me that the entire middle east is one big happy family of "middle easteners". How bout we just call all of em Middle Easterners, similar to how we call people of Europe "Europeans", and the people of Asia "Asians"..and the people of America "Americans".



Cheers!!!!

[edit on 11-1-2009 by RFBurns]

Originally posted by Founding
reply to post by Alpha_Magnum

 

OK obviously your baiting and trolling me. If you do not know what the words "so-called" mean than I cannot help you with your language problems....

Now you are being paranoid...

The biggest problem is that you have combined 2 things that can not possibly get along. On one hand you cite material from a RELIGIOUS context that all insists that there is a GOD. Then you cite scientific material dealing with genetics that is a science and falls in with something known as EVOLUTION.

You can't use scientific evidence about GENETICS since according to Judaism the JEWS are GODs chosen ONES. CREATION=God EVOLUTION=Science these are in complete opposition.