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Holocaust Denial & Historic Revisionism

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posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 07:09 AM
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Many European members find themselves on legally thin ice when it comes to making contributions about the Holocaust here on ATS. Thirteen EU countries have specific laws making holocaust denial, the denial or gross trivialisation of genocide, crimes against humanity & war crimes a criminal offence, the penalties for which include imprisonment for up to five years. Other EU nations have wide ranging legislation to combat racism & xenophobia, which cover offences committed online.

I recognise that in the USA, where I assume ATS is hosted, your freedom of speech is enshrined under the First Amendment to the Constitution. Rightly or wrongly that luxury does not exist in many other Western nations. I'm sure too that ATS makes the utmost efforts to protect the privacy of its members.

But I'm wondering whether it might not be more appropriate to place threads regarding the Holocaust, historic revisionism & crimes of genocide in RATS rather than having them on the main boards, thereby affording European members better protection against any legal implications & also perhaps raising the bar somewhat when it comes to everyone else's contributions too ? It would also ensure that search engines do not pick up on such highly contentious threads, protecting ATS & its reputation.

This suggestion is not about curtailing free speech, but rather better protecting European contributors, raising the standard of debate & safeguarding ATS.




posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 07:33 AM
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People do not get arrested or imprisoned for conducting proper investigations and studies into the Holocausts. They get penalised for disseminating lies and racist literature. Consistently, I have questioned the popular historical record of this period and not once have I suffered any penalty. Historical revisionism is not something to be afraid of, especially of this period, we have, still, a vast amount to learn and more importantly understand. If conducted properly, using reputable sources, there is everything to be gained. Those who are unable to support bias and hatred should be questioned on the subject and made to produce their sources. This is not a debate to be swept under the carpet and hidden away in RATS. Personally, if I believe in something strongly enough, and with this I do, I would willingly risk arrest and would eagerly await my day in court.



posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 10:55 AM
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reply to post by Niall197
 


Nothing is to be feared from legitimate research into the Holocaust and related topics. The operative word being "legitamate". If you are, as Kilgore says, merely using it to excuse the excesses of the Nazi's and their allies, then yes, in many places in Europe you're going to have problems of the legal sort.

Legitamate research into that dark period in history is to be applauded. It's all in the reason behind the research.



posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 11:35 AM
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the problem with this subject is that on the one hand we have docummneted proof of Nazi Atocities but there are others that were guilty of these crimes.

The Premis, the premis for the Holocaust was the reason for forming the state of Israel. As Israel did not exist and the land was occupide by the Palestinians and other a reason had to be used to set up the state of Israel. No some may say that that is completely outlandish and ridiculous but one has to remember that the original plan for the Jews was to remove them from Europe.

Enter the Zionists, they made dam sure that a war and a horrible one at that took place where large numbersd of Jewish people suffered beyond what most can even imagine. But that was the plan, but the problem lies with numbers, it is this which keeps cropping up all the time. There is no doubt that many Jews lost their lives due to Allied bombing directly and indirectly due to lack of supplies, many were killed by the Russians and many were killed by others, but they were killed none the less.

The reason for having such laws is simply because the perp, the Zionists that is don't want the real truth to come out, that truth is not about how many died but who were the designers of the plan, who backed it and who paid for it, thats what these laws are there for. The Jews of Europe were sacrificed for the greater good, for the state of Israel. Under no other circumstances would the state of Israel ever come about, it simply would not exist today without the Holocaust.

Just as all thsoe who were sacrificed on 9/11 for the bogus WOT and the invasion of Iraq that event to has passed into the shrine of it cannot and must not be discussed. Bush said to question 9/11 was unpatriotic those who question the Holocaust are called Anti semitic or Jew haters. The events are different only in the numbers and methods of killing everything else is the same.

To achieve the goal, what is the goal, who has to be sacrificed to achieve that goal and what do we do to shut people up afterwards. Its the same plan over and over again, there has to be a sacrifice, people have to suffer these are the aims and objectives of the perps that run the show.



posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 06:24 PM
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Niall... i understand your intention in proposal is to remove any real or perceived fear that people may have in sharing their ideas on this subject.

There is a great deal of merit to your purpose and i applaud it.
Yet i also understand the others premises.

For some subjects you find redundancy in RATS, but just as you had projected, i have noticed a greater freedom there that encourages further deeper disclosure/expression on taboo subjects.

Quite a few drug related threads are posted and moved to RATS by mods. For the past month i have been posting all my sex related threads there, in an effort to help give RATS more diversity, some others have followed suit.

Research that challenges the official story of the Holocaust would enhance RATS but also give ATSers who have reason for concern an extra blanket of security in anonymity.


[edit on 10-1-2009 by The All Seeing I]



posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 08:55 PM
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reply to post by magicmushroom
 
The area that is now Israel was sparsely inhabited prior to the Balfor agrementafter WWI. It was at that point, that it was suggested by the British that a seperate state for Jews be established. At that point, the "palestenians" began to move in and by up land, knowing they would be able to make a profit selling it to the countries that were attempting to establish the state of Israel.
Don't talk to me about Jews being greedy or trying to make unreasonable profits. And no, I'm not Jewish. I'm a nominial Baptist.



posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 09:16 PM
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Originally posted by Niall197

(...)

But I'm wondering whether it might not be more appropriate to place threads regarding the Holocaust, historic revisionism & crimes of genocide in RATS rather than having them on the main boards, thereby affording European members better protection against any legal implications & also perhaps raising the bar somewhat when it comes to everyone else's contributions too ? It would also ensure that search engines do not pick up on such highly contentious threads, protecting ATS & its reputation.

This suggestion is not about curtailing free speech, but rather better protecting European contributors, raising the standard of debate & safeguarding ATS.




I do agree.


Not to mention kids and teens around there, not all necessarily aware of every subtleties of such a messy mess.


[edit on 10/1/2009 by Netzar]



posted on Jan, 10 2009 @ 09:36 PM
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Perhaps the simplest answer is for those wishing to discuss the matter without the shadow of 'big brother' with presumed ill-intent would be to allow such a thread to exists in RATS. But it is hard to accept that such ill-intent exists within those who 'watchdog' for comments couldn't just as easily penetrate the RATS barrier (a nominal one with no cost other than virtual.)

I'm suggesting that your fear of persecution may not be realistically assuaged by the virtual anonymity of RATS. I commend the notion nevertheless, for the freedom to speak one's mind, right or wrong, is more of a human right, than the power to silence it.

[edit on 10-1-2009 by Maxmars]



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 01:21 AM
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When I landed here at ATS, I saw a few threads with regard to 9-11. What I read at first from some of the posters made me a little pissed. I was there on September 11th, and for weeks afterwards looking for people that I once knew..
I soon learned these Posters did NOT want to hear from me or consider anything I had to say.
Some believe the towers collapsed because uniformed city workers like myself placed explosives in the buildings to knock them down.
Because many “bodies” will never be recovered. (A co-worker who was in my academy class is one of them), I am certain many will debate “Body count” some time soon, if not already.
The last poster in that 9-11 thread used the word “Imagine” 9 times to state what he "Knew" happened that day. They will believe what they “imagine” and speculate “truth” till the day they die.

I posted numerous times in the “Holocaust” thread. I stated facts, posted source info and links. But more important, I stated we should learn so we do not repeat the same horrors again. I stated there were many acts of Genocide throughout history and we need to remember history so as not to repeat it.

I just visited that thread (for the last time).
I was told "you will be sought out and destroyed!" and I am a “Nazi”.
Go figure.


Having a topic like Holocaust denial on an open ATS thread makes this site look like crap. You will only draw like lunatics to this forum.
So . . . If you wish to debate if I placed “Thermite charges” to melt the support columns of Building 7, then post it someplace were the rest of the sane world can't see it.

It is OK to seek the truth. However, to some, the truth is “Out there”. . . and so are they.
It would be better if these persons were cloistered on RATS.
It is people like that which will create the next Holocaust and as a Paramedic, I will try to keep a good record of it . . . in case anyone is still alive to debate it.

Peace.

EDIT: double word

[edit on 11-1-2009 by NYCMedic]



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 06:52 AM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


the problem is that any legitimate research into the exact facts of the holocaust - cannot be investigated without atracting a swarm of neo nazi nut jobs on one side - and the ` its anti semitism to even question any holocaust claim ` people on the other

i am a holocaust revisionist [ or rather would be if i could do it propperly ] - in that i do not accept the claim :

6 million jews died

the reason - because at the time that the 6 million claim was made , europe was still in shambles - FFS the british war office had not efen finalised the correct casualty figures and bread downs for brittish and commonwealth military casualties - and they supposedly knew exactly how many service men we had - as every one was issed a pay book [ numbered ] and had a service number [ sequential ] - but there were still errors and disceprancies

but " somehow " jewish survivor groups scattered across europe cpnducted a precise "cencus " of people from over 13 countries and concluded without error that 6 million had been murdered by the nazi regieme

that is IMHO preposterous - and it is a farce that ` 6 million dead jews ` has become an unchallengable dogma

i have no idea what the true figure was - maybee anything between 4 and 8 million , who knows ?

i accept almost every other major claim of the holocaust - the camps , the gas chambers etc etc

just not the 6 million - and the insane thing is the true figure could well be higher than 6 million

[edit on 11-1-2009 by ignorant_ape]



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 08:46 AM
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NYCMedic... you may find BTS easier to swallow and digest... ATS is for people who have thicker skin, not afraid of their own shadow, and travel the road less traveled in their quests for the truth. If all you do is regurgitate what the masses have been sold, then you are going to get slapped around here.

ATS can pride itself on providing a safe space for independent-thinkers/mavericks to collaborate and spare in an effort to answer important questions that have not been adequately/sufficiently addressed by the powers that be... thus Above Top Secret.

Your suggestion is 180 degrees from our motto "deny ignorance".



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by The All Seeing I
NYCMedic... you may find BTS easier to swallow and digest... ATS is for people who have thicker skin, not afraid of their own shadow, and travel the road less traveled in their quests for the truth. If all you do is regurgitate what the masses have been sold, then you are going to get slapped around here.

Your suggestion is 180 degrees from our motto "deny ignorance".


Incredable . . . and fuuny.
I clearly stated to many that I was present on that faithful day of 9-11. How did many not understand? (Including you) "regurgitate" - Funny.
I clearly stated to many that truth should take precedence over “Body count” and mud slinging. How did many not understand? (Including you)
I have seen and been through a lot in my life. I do not think an Miopic poster will make me pee my pants. Many here claim they wish to "deny ignorance", but I have seen many here propagate it.

The problem is people here beat a dead horse over each others .. They want to be right and righteous at the expense of others . . . and at the expense of the truth. That is a problem that has been endemic to people since humans first learned to “Grunt” and hit each other over the . with sticks.
The point is not if I have “thick skin”. (Guess how that term came about.) It has to do with the proverbial stick over . to be followed by a series of “Grunts”. Albeit, it may have been incentive to be a victor of an argument when we lived in caves. You would think we have evolved a bit since then.

With topics of debate such as mass Genocide and man made catastrophes, you have people immediately go to their corners and come out swinging when they hear the bell. You would think that it would be prudent to really discuss how we, as a people, stop beating each other with sticks. The “truth” would be easier to achieve if that were to happen. It would stop some of those man made catastrophes as well.

It does matter if we were to find out how many “non-combatants” lost there lives in the later stage of the 1930's on up to the 1940's. However, to claim it is all a lie and it never happened is a lie in itself. The act of denial from people is the worst kind of lie. Other than a vivid imagination, these people will say anything in order to make their claims heard and demand acceptance of these claims. They “Grunt” and hit each other with sticks. Hostility and dogma is not the way to uncover truth. It only incites hostility and propagates ignorance.

I am Not angry that people believe New York City emergency workers assisted in the death and destruction on September 11th. I am Not angry that people believe “the killing of Jews is a Zionist Lie!” I am Not angry people do not show proof to substantiate their claims. However, I am saddened that these peoples goals are only meant to incite and provoke anger in others. They beat their chest, swing a stick and “Grunt”. These people deny the truth to justify what they have been doing for Eons, and that is conduct tribal warfare.

Many here claim they “deny ignorance”. They need to open their eyes first . . . or all they will do is propagate ignorance as I have seen here many times.
If we humans are to survive from the dangers of “ourselves”, we had best stop with “denial”. We need to share knowledge, help each other learn from our past, and try not to repeat it.
We need to evolve . . . and that is an “undeniable truth”.

Many people who visit this site may not be, as you stated: “Thick skinned”. Let's avoid a problem before it happens and stop propagating hate and ignorance. Move such topics out of the public view. Let's be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem people.

Peace.

Edit: Spelling

[edit on 11-1-2009 by NYCMedic]



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 02:01 PM
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Kettle that is simply not true, the are awas inhabited in the main by what could be described as Palestinians with a small number of Jews. The Increase in Jewish settlers on happened after ww2 when there was a massive influx of people to the area.

And more to the point before ww1 the whole area was under the control of the Turks. After we got the Arabs to side with us to defeat the Turks on the promise that they would get their land back we sold them down the river after the end of ww1. We then went about carving up the ME making sure the new found oil (the real reason for ww1) remained under British control.

The area that is Israel was never ours to give away to anyone least of all the Jews. After the Balfour decleration thats when the troubles started and continue to this very day. The Jews had no legitamate right to the land other than the bull crap they pull about what was written in that book of fairy tales thats called the bible.

The Me has always been predominately Arab not Jewish, even if you go back thousands of years the Jews made up a tiny proportion of the people living in that area. To claim that the land is theirs by devine right is just bunkum, but its more about might is right seeing the one despot nation the US supports another Israel.

What the Israelis/Jews have done since 1940 is a mirror image of what the Nazis did to them, steal the wealth and land of others and ultimately commit genocide against the indigenous peoples of the ME.



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 02:27 PM
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NYCMedic... i understand your position better now, and i still find the act of sanitizing and/or advocating a "sight out of mind" policy is counter productive... especially in such a place as ATS. I agree that some people are clearly delusional, irrational and clueless in their facade of certainty... but they all have a right to be heard and hopefully in the process learn something new by re-evaluating their own ideas/theories. People's intentions become clear as a discussion/thread evolves... if it is purely to evoke hatred and to perpetuate obvious lies and distortions of the truth, the ATS staff and membership is generally smarter/sharper then your average bear, they'll set the record straight.



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by The All Seeing I
 


They don't make for pleasant viewing though, do they, these threads. You'd expect the subject matter would in itself make contributors post thoughtfully & with care but it just doesn't work out that way. Posts are removed, warnings given out & what (occasionally) starts out as an interesting discussion has totally degenerated within a page or two. It's not a particularly good advertisement for ATS.

There got to be something done to give the genuine contributor a safe & stable environment where he/she can present their research, thoughts and where others can review their work & discuss new truths that they perhaps too have found. That won't happen while there's a free for all going on in the rest of the thread, as things stand today.

I honestly think the day will come though when someone will make a complaint to the authorities about a European contributor & their posts. That's just going to open a whole can of worms for the member & ATS. Other sites I register with make it clear that contributors should observe the laws in their own countries when they post etc, for no other reason than to protect that member from themselves. That's good advice & something which should perhaps be considered here too.

I had a quick run through the T&C's earlier, criminal hate is banned on ATS & can lead to member accounts being suspended. It places a burden on the mods though, trying to weigh up who is genuinely looking at history from a different perspective, however unpalatable their findings may be, from those who simply deny the Holocaust because they hate jews, gypsies, gays etc. I have no problems with revisionism if it's conducted without an agenda. But I do have issues with those who deny the Holocaust & trivialise the suffering of countless numbers of folks whilst at the same time whistling Horst Wessel. They're the ones who need weeded out & banned, they're in breach of the T&C's, post removals & point deductions just don't cut it.

I honestly think that burden would be lessened if such matters were discussed in RATS. Just my ha'penny worth.



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 04:19 PM
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It's interesting that you chose to use the description "weeding out"... we had a similar discussion in RATS a month ago in use of this metaphor. That RATS is essentially a compost pile in which mods dump weeds they have picked from the garden.


Well i for one don't think any topic is taboo or should be made taboo, especially in such a place as ATS.

As for purely using ATS to spread hate and disinfo... this is not the purpose of ATS... there are other forums elsewhere for that. ATS policies insure that such posts are minimized if not all together removed... so we really have no need for concern (we have plenty of competent mods on top of things).

As for RATS being advocated as a shelter of sorts for those who feel they may get pinched by their governments... i'm all for such a campaign, to inform the membership that RATS is available to serve them.

As for ATS getting heat from another country for our american standard of freedom of speech... it would be in ATS's best interest to have a PR strategy in place to milk all the free publicity they could gain from such an encounter.

I could see the .lines now on every MSM outlet...
"ATS: A Haven for Free-Minds". We'd double membership in a week.
And i'm sure there are plenty of long time members in the wings we could bring on board as mods to help keep the new comers on track.

A little hollywood wisdom "There is no such thing as bad publicity."
Provided of course you are prepared to spin it to your advantage.


[edit on 11-1-2009 by The All Seeing I]



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by The All Seeing I
NYCMedic... i understand your position better now, and i still find the act of sanitizing and/or advocating a "sight out of mind" policy is counter productive... especially in such a place as ATS.

I agree that some people are clearly delusional, irrational and clueless in their facade of certainty... but they all have a right to be heard and hopefully in the process learn something new by re-evaluating their own ideas/theories. People's intentions become clear as a discussion/thread evolves... if it is purely to evoke hatred and to perpetuate obvious lies and distortions of the truth, the ATS staff and membership is generally smarter/sharper then your average bear, they'll set the record straight.


I understand a little of your point now as well.
See . . . this "Talking stuff" really works.

Thanks
My concern is for this site and for others. It is my nature I guess.
I thought about it and decided you may be correct. You need "two sides" to debate at the very least. Input is input as well, even if it is good, bad or indifferent.
It is possible I do not fully understand the workings here. However, if any adult surfs the WWW, they can trip over more dangerous stuff than a post from ATS.

I just found this while looking at news.
I got a kick out of it which is apropos to what I spoke about earlier.
Hope you all do to.
news.yahoo.com...;_ylt=ArPKoDr2KeelWLN_.wBHAccDwLAF

Peace.



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 05:08 PM
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All i can say is, you dont have to be frighten on our behalf, most of us dont give in to racism and even more of us like freedom of speech. To be honest this looks like a crusade to dodge any intellectual discusions.

Best regards.

Loke.

[edit on 11-1-2009 by Loke.]



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 07:18 PM
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lmao... that toon is brilliant... i can't tell you how many times i have felt like that guy in the last frame holding his ..


Some people you'll never get through to, no matter how clear and logical your premise is... no matter how hard you try.

As frustrating as the process maybe it's always worth trying... it reminds and reconfirms why in part or world is so messed up, and will always be lagging behind.

Now if we could just prevent such people from holding management positions, voting and having kids... the world may have a lasting chance.



[edit on 11-1-2009 by The All Seeing I]



posted on Jan, 12 2009 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by ignorant_ape
the problem is that any legitimate research into the exact facts of the holocaust - cannot be investigated without atracting a swarm of neo nazi nut jobs on one side - and the ` its anti semitism to even question any holocaust claim ` people on the other


I agree and disagree, to me it is the information that is important I do not have any emotional attachment to it beyond that, so if I get hit by an emotional, knee jerk response I assume that they have something personal invested in one particular version of those events. I therefore disregard it as biased. Nothing can bring the dead back to life, but only an open and honest analysis of those events can prevent further repeats.


Originally posted by ignorant_ape
i am a holocaust revisionist [ or rather would be if i could do it propperly ] - in that i do not accept the claim :

6 million jews died

the reason - because at the time that the 6 million claim was made , europe was still in shambles - FFS the british war office had not efen finalised the correct casualty figures and bread downs for brittish and commonwealth military casualties - and they supposedly knew exactly how many service men we had - as every one was issed a pay book [ numbered ] and had a service number [ sequential ] - but there were still errors and disceprancies


It is just as likely, in my opinion, that the number could be much higher than six million. The Einsatzgruppen that slaughtered its way through Poland and the Baltic States kept detailed records but as their primary targets were political and intelligensia they did not necessarily note their victims 'race' in addition to that designation. However, later, when Jews were specifically targeted, there is some evidence of creative accounting, and a competitive edge between some of the Kommando units. They may have rounded up figures. Similarly Rudolf Hoess, claimed that 3.5 million jews were killed at Auschwitz. The figure has since been ratified to about 750,000 I believe with a total 1.3 million deaths at Auschwitz (I haven't checked those figure).


Originally posted by ignorant_ape
but " somehow " jewish survivor groups scattered across europe cpnducted a precise "cencus " of people from over 13 countries and concluded without error that 6 million had been murdered by the nazi regieme


You are making a presumption on how the data was collected. If you look at the Nuremberg Trails you will find that this is not how the figure was arrived at. It was an estimate, and it was never claimed to be anything else, and it was based on numbers supplied to them by the SS. As little at that stage was even publicly known about the Death Camps, it can be also be presumed that this is where the confusion about the two types of camps come from that is expressed at those trials and in resulting literature. The numbers, given at the trials, were arrived at from seized documents and war time radio intercepts.


Originally posted by ignorant_ape
that is IMHO preposterous - and it is a farce that ` 6 million dead jews ` has become an unchallengable dogma


This is not true, but it is a commonly touted myth. The numbers for both Auschwitz and Madjinek have been drastically and publically ratified in recent years. No one is preventing genuine academic research into the holocaust or the other crimes of the Nazi regime, all that is being prevented is the dessemination of racism repackaged as pseudo-science.


Originally posted by ignorant_ape
i have no idea what the true figure was - maybee anything between 4 and 8 million , who knows ?

i accept almost every other major claim of the holocaust - the camps , the gas chambers etc etc

just not the 6 million - and the insane thing is the true figure could well be higher than 6 million



Exactly and which is why I consider it irrelevent and fail to understand the amount of time wasted in arguing one way or another. I think it is likely that about 6-8 million jews were murdered, but I think what has been revealed by recent research is that of that number only 3-4 million were murdered specifically because they were Jewish.




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