The altar of the Beast

Originally posted by Jonna

But we already have guns!?!

Without the infrastructure civilization provides, they would disappear. Maybe it would take centuries, evne millenia, but we would eventually return to a primal state. You can't have one aspect of civlization, such as technolgoy, survive without the others. They all feed and grow off of eachother.

I am all for the advancement of science and such, but perhaps the civilization of humans should not survive. Sure we have advanced ourselves, but only in a way which we can kill on a much larger scale for no essensial reason and claim that it is for a just cause.

We can kill eachother, and we can keep ourselves alive. Degenerating into a primitive state will eventually elad to our certain death as a species. Civilization means we have a small chance of surviving the inevitable for as long as possible.

Originally posted by godservant
Religion is not way for the weak to control the strong, but the opposite. Those that you view as strong are really weak because they are giving in to their selfish agendas. Then, to believe in something with no proof is not a matter weakness, but strength to open up your mind and soul. For those of us that 'genuinly' seek God find proof in healing, peace and love.

Without God, this world would be so much worse than it is now because the weak leaders would be feeding their shelfish needs at your expence - more than they do now.

I dont even know where to start with this

Lets see believing in something without proof is a strength? I read a book on telekinetics and it said we could levitate. OK I believe this without any proof so I am going to jumb of the bridge and gently levitate myself to the ground.

Is this strength or insanity?


As far as God keeping people from pushing there on agenda just look at the mideast to see the BS in that arguement. I have to go to a funrel right nowe but will get back on this.


I am glad to be hearing from the other side of the arguement

well nonduality meaning, uniting light and dark, good and evil, negative and positive, right and wrong, good and bad. Things like that, that are opposite.

Yes, MEN like to dominate, but your SPIRIT is both dominant and also submissive. Embracing both, and experiencing both, lets you incorporate both halves. Because, when you think about it, duality is 2 halves, but then you seperate them it limits you. Your spirit is non dual, so there is no halves, its just 1 whole consising of the 2 halves , uniting to make one whole, to be like, in the middle, so you can use both halves to the advantage.

I just got that awakening yesterday, that nonduality is basically the answer to everything. Judgement is also duality. Being in a nonjudgemental state for EVERY situation that comes your way possible lets you see things as a whole, and puts you in a better positiion. SInce your spirit is nondual, its like your working with your spirit.

Your spirit is both male and female. Both dominant and submissive. Both active and, not active. Your spirit is whole, not half of one whole. Uniting things makes you feel, at one, because after all, everything is one.

When you embrace BOTH aspects of dualness, you become nondual, and then you start to fuinction as a whole, using both parts, from the middle of those 2 halves without judgement, because , evil, and good, are just perceptions, not real, good and evil is 2 parts to one whole.

The Now, is nondual. The past and future are both 2 parts to one whole, when they unite, they become the Now. The only thing you have is the Now.

Also, true happiness only occurs when you incorporate both negative, and positive emotions into your being, and learning to enjoy and experience both positive and negative feelings, as a whole. Finding the positive in the negative, and finding the negative in the positive will balance you.

Nonduality, puts you in harmony with both halves. It balances you out.

Once you are balanced, then you can take control and by WILL, make yourself happy by just BEING happy because you are balanced in all aspects. You have learned to see the positives in the negatives, thus giving you the ability to focus on those positive and enjoy the negatives.

I can explain it better but I am too lazy to explain it better. It takes direct EXPERIENCING to realize this.

the only reason we see "evils" in our world is because the "evil" people have not yet embraced the light. They have only embraced the dark and not the light. In fact they are using the dark to fight the light.

I think we were put on this earth to experience dark and incorporate it into our being.

This takes me back to the Lucifer Experiment? Has anyone heard of this?

I read somewhere that, this was when, God created his first creation. It was all good, then Lucifer, decided to experiment and do evil, and thus now we are living in his evil creation. The next creation is supposedly going to have both good AND evil incorporated, and this will take place after the "End of Days" that is supposed to occur up until 2013. Then we will have control over both evil and good. Because first to have control over it you have to embrace both parts first, then you can use both good and evil, in a nondualisitic nature. in harmony. As a whole. Then the evil being used can be acceptable, and the goods being is acceptable.

I can't quite explain it to those who don't already know what I mean and have not yet realized the nature of nonduality.

I think one of the reasons why we are alive in this day and age is to incorporate both good and evil, and be nondual. Just IMO.

Keep in mind though, that beleiving and not beleiving are also dual. To beleive something is to take one path, to not beleive it is taking another path. Why not incorporate both, and just see it as, "seeing from the perspective as if I DO beleive this, and I also see it from the perspective as if I DON'T beleive this". That way you are being openminded and also, just reading information for what it is. Not really beleiving it, beacuse beleifs limit you. Its your Inention that matters. Intention from the middle path is what matters.

I think one of the reasons why we are alive in this day and age is to incorporate both good and evil, and be nondual. Just IMO.

The ONLY reason we are alive is to eat and reproduce all the rest is extra.

The sooner we relize this and stop looking for answers to questions that dont exist the better off we will be

Where else in nature does the pack give a (c) about the weaker members?

In this nature gives two choices.

There are some packs of animals that would kill their own kind when they are weak, for example jackals kill one of their own if its badly injured.

There are also many instances where animals kill their own offspring. Yes, just like there are some humans that kill their own kids.

There are spieces of animals which form packs and they help and protect their weaker members. (remember that offsprings are also weaker than the rest of the pack, so if you kill the weaker, you have to kill the offsprings, which will mean no more future generations, smart huh...)

I remember watching on the discovery channel about some animals allowing the weaker members stay with them and letting them eat until they recover. There have been instances of animals which were wounded and lost one leg which the packs did not kill or ban from the pack. In some cases these animals will become strong once more, with only three legs and be good providers for the pack.

Now it is your choice to decide who you want to be....

The stupid jerks who would kill those he/she calls weaker.

Or the "compassionate" ones who would help each other and even help those who are weaker than themselves.

BTW, in all packs not every member is the strongest. If the male alpha would kill all those that are "weaker" than him, he would be alone...

As for spirituality, only those who would help the weaker members in a society would even understand that we are more than just physical beings.

Dont Worry. The Asteroid theory is true and will happen soon.

Umm, spirituality is important why?

Because it lets you get back in touch with your self beyond form.

Not only that, your spirituality determines whether you will survive in the future or not, at least physically.

The ONLY reason we are alive is to eat and reproduce all the rest is extra.

I think your only paying attention to the physical and denying the non-physical nature of yourself. I think, one reason WHY we are conscious beings living in a physical world is to unite both our physical, and our spiritual selves. Thus uniting both halves. Nondual.

Unite materialism, and non-materialism.

If you choose to stay purely physical, you will lose touch with your non-physical spirit, and die with the physical, as well as your spirit also because your spirit has dissipated for not developing your spiritual self. Then you will stay physical, and perhaps even lose your soul. Its only logical.

[Edited on 9-4-2004 by The Quiet Storm]

Originally posted by Amuk
Is trying to be spiritual a waste of time?

Should we not embrace our animalistic natures?

Religion goes against everything in our nature and therefore is not only useless but counterproductive.

I believe it was started as a scam for the weaker members of the tribe to get an edge till then everything depended on raw power.

So which would be better living as nature intended or fighting our selves to become something that we not only are not but will never be?

[Edited on 9-4-2004 by Amuk]

First I want to point out the fact that spirituality and religion are not the same thing. A person can be spiritual, which is a part of our nature, without being religious. Organized religion, however, doesn't originate from human nature. At one time religion was synonymous with leader, and it was used by those in power to control their subjects.
Spirituality on the other hand doesn't desire control of others. It is an internal connection to God, and it is what allows us to transcend our instinctively self-destructive nature.

Since we must make choices that we know have the potential to be either harmful or beneficial to others, humans bear a greater responsibility for the consequences of their actions than animals do. There is a quote by Mark Twain that is one of my favorites:

" The fact that man knows right from wrong proves his intellectual superiority to other creatures; but the fact that he can do wrong proves his moral inferiority to any creature that cannot."

The only way we would be justified in acting without first considering what effect our actions might have, is if we could stop being controlled by our emotions and our natural concepts of duality. Animals may have close to the same capacity for intelligence that humans do, but they don't hold grudges, or plot revenge. They don't understand one thing by comparing it to something else. Animals react instinctively to a given situation without any awareness of what is motivating them. They are incapable of "wrongdoing" because they have no understanding of what that means.

People, on the other hand, knowingly act out of greed, malice, infatuation, love, deceit, etc., and are obligated to maintain a certain ethical standard because of this. We should seek to overcome our animalistic nature, if for no other reason then the fact that we have the ability, knowledge and power to move beyond our current self-involved mentality and make our life on this planet a utopia.

A planet full of people only concerned with themselves, would be a miserable, depressing world to live in.

Religion was created for one thing, and one thing only.

MANIPULATION and CONTROL. Ah, well thats 2 things....

Or the "compassionate" ones who would help each other and even help those who are weaker than themselves.

I am not totally against this. I help those close to me and expect others to do the same. It is the law of the pack.....LOL

What dont conceren me is what is happining to those NOT close to me. Before the war I felt sorry for the Iraqis but ALL there lives were not worth ONE of my kids to ME. This is nature and nothing to be ashamed of IMO. I take care of mine and we ask for NOTHING from anyone else and others should do the same. I am not even totally against helping strangers it just depends on the price of the help and the problem.

First I want to point out the fact that spirituality and religion are not the same thing. A person can be spiritual, which is a part of our nature, without being religious. Organized religion, however, doesn't originate from human nature.

You got me there.......LOL

The way I phrazed the statement was bad I should have said religion, yes spirituality can be a part of life, I know this because I have "died" and was aware after death so I know the "soul" goes on its just the controling points of religion that I have a problem with.

Although some points of religion may have been inspired I think most were pasted togather from the rantings of madmen and used by leaders to hold people enslaved by not only threating THIS life but the after life as well

I disagree. Look around at the current world. The people who are murdering, raping, and stealing are not religious or spiritual people. Those are people who are acting on pure animal instincts. Violence, lust and greed are at the heart of every major problem in the world.

You say nature intended us to be like other animals � that is 100% incorrect. Even if you do not believe in God or religions, Mother Nature�s evolution process gifted the human race with intelligence greatly above any other animal. Intellect is what truly dominates � not brute strength. Human beings are the winner of the evolutionary game because man is a great thinker, not because of animal instincts. Without intelligence humans are frail creatures hiding in the wilderness.

The weak are those people that choice to go against evolution and revert backwards toward the instincts of the beast. The strong are those people that rise above the old animal urges and embrace the complex levels of uniquely inspired thought. The human brain allows mankind the awesome power to think, reason, and analysis. Through that process of critical thinking man has ultimately concluded that people should follow a honorable path.

Human beings have been given a huge responsibility as the supreme animal on Earth. We are the only animals on the planet that can protect all the other animals or destroy all of the other animals.

It is man�s choice to take the easy route and allow the beast to control him that is destroying this world.

The weak are those people that choice to go against evolution and revert backwards toward the instincts of the beast.

Like the instinct to protect and care for your mate and offspring?

To fight and die if need be to see your genes carried on?

Or should you put your favorite superstition ahead of them? Remember in the bible it says to put god BEFORE ytour family, and Abraham was even willing to kill his son to get on gods good side.


And we are JUST what natured intended, the smartest tool user. Fire got us where we are today, not religion.

And if we kill ourselves off nature wont shed a tear some other animal will just take our place.

Well, you may know this already but we have a reptilian part of our brains. This part of the brain has OBSOLUTELY NO USE whatsoever, except for negativity, like self doubt, hate, fear, etc.

I read somewhere that the reason why we have this is because the reptilians who are in the Illuminati had manipulated our DNA into making us have a reptilian part of the brain that creates negativity for the sole purpose of control, and to be able to be manipulated.

No, it is not the nature of humans to have this reptilian part of the brain. There are humans.... (or more like WERE) humans that did not have this reptilian brain, and they were the atlanteans and the other very highly intelligent races from the past, and other humanoid species that may inhabit other planets.

Spiritual evolution CAN overpower this part of the brain, but it is very hard. Some say when all this manipulation and control reaches a climax, which some say is this yea, the spiritual evolution of humanity will over power this part of the brain, and eventually grow out of it. BUt ya never know, we may even try to take that out of our brain since it has no purpose whatsoever, except for negativity.

So I think spiritual evolution is the way to go.

Or should you put your favorite superstition ahead of them? Remember in the bible it says to put god BEFORE ytour family, and Abraham was even willing to kill his son to get on gods good side.

Oh, and # the bible. The bible was written for control also. Truths within lies, lies withing truths.

Yes, put God before everything. That is EXACTLY what spiritual evolution does. It leads to God realization, and oneness with God. You are just denying the fact that we have a spiritual side. The material world is not our spiritual nature. In fact it is our 3rd dimensional nature. If you want to stay in the third dimension, and not ascend to higher spiritual evolution, then keep your desires, and wants, and your fears, etc. If you want to "dumb down" your self, and go EVEN LOWER then pay attention to ONLY your animal instincts, then your soul will dissipate because you have denied your spiritual self, and have dumbed yourself down completely to the physical, material world, functioning, without a soul, basically you will just be a functioning human without a soul.

Anyways, its just my theory that when you deny your spiritual side, your soul will start dissipating from the lack of use, just like muscles get all jellowy from the lack of use. Just like the brain gets weaker from the lack of use. Its just, "Spiritual Evolution".

The human body is just a vehicle for your spirit. Spiritual Evolution also, leads to the evolution of humanity. Because the spirit will also change the body, to perfect it, and keep perfecting it.

So basically, like I said, spiritual evolution is the way to go. God realization, evolution of your soul, spirit, personality, gain wisdom, bla bla bla, and also, perfecting your body. WHy would you want to go back down, the evolutionary course down to being just an animal? We can transcend fighting, we can transcend fear, hate, violence bla bla bla. That of course doesn't mean that we can't protect our families, and that of course mean that we can't fight. We will fight if its the smart thing to do, and of course, we can also use tactics in our fighting if we need to, as opposed to all out, fighting with no tactics, that will get you dead very quick.

Also, guerilla warfare is also a tactic not just instinct. Just wanted to add that before you try to say something about how fighting on instinct makes you a better fighter.

Martial Artists are some of the most spiritual people. They stay in a Zen like state when they fight, with nonresistance, and that makes them a whole lot better fighters. Instinctual fighting most of the times come out of fear, or some kind of resistance. So nonresistant fighting where you have transcended the "fight or flight" mechanism in your brain, will make you a better fighter.

I am not saying to "go backward" I am just saying to be who we are, which is an animal not a spirit. In all the years of humanity there is not ONE shred of proof that we are "rewarded" or "punished" for ANYTHING we do in this life in the afterworld.


Wouldnt things be a lot better if we consentrated on THIS world instead of never-never land?

And by the way I AM a martial artist.

See.... humans are not just animals. Apes are. Im sure humans did not come from apes. More like, biological engineering for individual souls to inhabit. This is the point that I am trying to get at you. We have logic and reasoning for a reason.

The difference between humans and animals is that we are conscious of ourselves. Animals aren't. They function purely on instinct.

If you wanna keep thinking that we are just animals then you will only keep degrading yourself until you DO become an animal without a conscious soul. Souls are conscious of self. Being conscius of self is exactly why we have intelligence, exactly why we have logic and reasoning. So you want to act without logic and reasoning?

Humans are not purely animals, if we were, we'd be living just like the apes do, at this day and age.

In all the years of humanity there is not ONE shred of proof that we are "rewarded" or "punished" for ANYTHING we do in this life in the afterworld.

It's not whether we get rewarded or punished. THats the common religious beleif. We go wherever we WANT TO in our after life. The only hell that we would experience in the after life is the one we put on ourselves. The only heaven we would experience in the afterlife is what we ourselves would put on ourselves.

NOT some GOD outside ourselves. Because WE ARE GOD. WE have the power to choose whehter we go to heaven or hell.

Plus, there is no "hell". There is no "heaven". We are not punished or rewarded. We only punish ourselves and we reward ourselves. You choose what you want to experience in the afterlife. Plain and simple.

Wouldnt things be a lot better if we consentrated on THIS world instead of never-never land?

What is this "never never land" that you speak of? Spiritual people don't concentrate on a never never land. They concentrate on this reality, and then they figure out the nature of reality. After they figure out the nature of reality, they start to transcend all the "negativity". Transcending meaning, rising to a higher level, meaning that you can see the bigger picture of the reality we are living in. Then after we see the bigger picture, we see everything as a whole, and not one. Its just a higher perspective, thats all. And with this higher perspective, comes higher "powers" so to speak.... only we use these powers consciously, instead of doing it unconsciously when we hadn't realized the nature of reality. Thats how we are the God of ourselves, its just that everyone thinks everything is out of their own control. But most poeple are manipulated into thinking this way. So that we lose the power that we have in ourselves, and keep thinking that some other, force dictates our reality. Also, the bondage that we are in, is only the bondage that we have let ourselves in. Doesn't make any sense doesnt it? Well don't worry, soon you will know the TRUTH, which transcends everything that you knew. Once and for all we will be taken out of this bondage.

I guarantee it.

And by the way I AM a martial artist.

GREAT! So am I! Matrial arts is awesome man. Right now I am studying Goju Ryu.

I am sure your sensie or master teaches you to fight calmly. Whenever YOU dictate what goes on, that is you as your spirit dictating whats going on.

Tell me something. Can you perceive your body? Can you FEEL your body from within. Put your focus into your right hand. Can you feel the blood inside? Can you feel a tingly sensation. Now, do that for your whole body.

Now tell me who you are. You are not your body, because you can perceive it. The perciever cannot be perceived. If you think that you are purely your body, then why can you perceive it? Because "YOU" ARE NOT your body! There is something behind everything that you are perceiving. There is something withing the perceivable body that is perceiving.

Now tell me, could that be the "you" that is spirit that is perceiving your body?



[Edited on 17-4-2004 by The Quiet Storm]

Originally posted by Amuk

Is trying to be spiritual a waste of time?

I am practicing to be more spiritual and I find that it is no waste of time.

Should we not embrace our animalistic natures?

If I were to embrace my animalistic nature I would have probably hurt a lot of people by now. I realize another human being or any other sentient being for that matter has a right to exist here as much as I do. I think that the only way I should embrace my animalistic nature is to defend myself from a threat. And if I should have to eliminate a life that is a threat, I will honour that life's spirit by praying to the Creator because everything comes from the same source.

We are animals.

True, science classifies the human as animal. That doesn't mean I act like one, though.

What does this have to do with religion?

I don't believe in organized religion. I prefer to live from my own spirituality and understanding the connection to the greater order.

Violiance not only is a part of life it is the CENTER of life.

I think that balance and harmony are the center of life and the centre of one's own life as well.

So which would be better living as nature intended or fighting our selves to become something that we not only are not but will never be?

I think living as nature intended. Nature nurtures us. It is the love of a mother for her child where nature manifests. It is in our nature to protect ourselves from a threat, to care for others, and to develop ourselves beyond our current situation, physically and spiritually.