Russia is the new bully. Why isn't the MSM worried?

reply to post by pexx421


Yes... I see what you're saying and I am privy to propaganda. I tend to notice propaganda right away and try to find out the truth to it. I think that however, in this case, that Russian propaganda is making it seem like the USA was the cause of this war, or, that we had something to do with it, and just I'm blaming Russia for this because of their actions following the incident. I'm not blaming Russia for the Russia Georgian war because of propaganda. I do however see your point about propaganda. However, I am one of the last people to be fooled by propaganda.

I really have no idea what you are getting at here.

Russia are up to their old tricks?
That just doesn't make any sense to me - nor does this fuss over the ukraine situation, or anything else you mentioned.

Russia are not being expansionist, nor are they practising the type of economic imperialism the west is.

They are going about their business quietly, and not shouting the odds.

I'd really like to see some hard evidence and comparison of how they are behaving worse than the US and their allies, other than vague theories and "feelings"

Have russia invaded anywhere?

Have they sponsored terrorism whilst at the same time condemning it?

Or is it simply a case of they won't do what the west wants them to do?

If so, why should they?

You didn't answer my last post - fair enough, you are under no obligation to do so.
But if you want this theory taken seriously, you'll need to flesh it out a little more.....

[edit on 10/1/2009 by budski]

Originally posted by budski
I really have no idea what you are getting at here.

Alright, I'll inform you on what's going on.

Russia are up to their old tricks?
That just doesn't make any sense to me - nor does this fuss over the ukraine situation, or anything else you mentioned.

Alright, I've found some sources that back up what I'm saying.

Russian and Venezuelan energy firms have agreed to work on an energy cooperation pact, at a meeting of their respective presidents.

Venezuela's Hugo Chavez was in the southern Russian city of Orenburg with Russia's Dmitry Medvedev.

The two countries have been rapidly building closer military and economic ties, and have spoken of their opposition to US global dominance.

The latest deal calls for broader co-operation on oil and gas production.

Mr Chavez and Mr Medvedev smiled and clapped as the heads of Russian gas giant Gazprom and Venezuelan energy firm PDVSA put pen to paper.

news.bbc.co.uk...

I found this article basically saying how much power Russia and China have over us. It MIGHT open your eyes a little.

“IT MAY seem an odd time to be thinking about anything foreign bar Gaza, but you really need to consider how you are going to treat two guys you won’t have much in common with but will be seeing a lot of—Vladimir Putin and Hu Jintao. Without the co-operation of Russia and China, the United Nations is of little use to us. But if you are seen to be letting them push you around, our right-wingers will tear you apart.

It’s important that you meet both of them as soon as reasonably possible—though not before you’ve seen Britain, Germany, France and Japan. You ought to work your charm on the Chinese first. They’ve been co-operative of late, on North Korea most obviously, but also to some extent on Iran. Above all, they keep on buying our Treasuries. Plus they haven’t rocked the boat on Taiwan. In fact, things are going pretty swimmingly across the strait, which is one big thing we don’t have to worry about. Also, our trade deficit with China is starting to look a bit better. True, that’s only because of the recession-driven collapse in our demand for their imports, but it might help keep Congress quiet.

Then there’s Mr Putin. Don’t make George Bush’s initial mistake of trusting him; but don’t start out too combative either. We all know that neither Georgia nor Ukraine are going to be let into NATO any time soon, so what’s the point of needlessly annoying Moscow by banging on about it? You might think it wise to find ways to soft-pedal that one.

www.economist.com...

Russia are not being expansionist, nor are they practising the type of economic imperialism the west is.

The West is in a pretty poor shape economically right now. We can't practice economic imperialism because we don't have the time, the power, the money, or the assets.

The fear is that they will become imperialists. Look at this article it explains why people think that.

Jan. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Prime Minister Vladimir Putin’s decision to confront Ukraine over a gas-pricing dispute reflects a determination to assert Russian clout, even at the cost of worsening ties with Europe and a loss of export revenue.

The disagreement, which escalated today with the cutoff of supplies to the West, is prompting European customers to seek alternative sources of natural gas, mirroring the fallout of a similar dispute three years ago and potentially aggravating a Russian economic slump.

“There is a real fear on the part of the Russian leadership about maintaining the legitimacy of the regime, and demonstrating that they are still players and still have influence is one way to maintain that legitimacy,” said Paul Saunders, executive director of the Nixon Center, a Washington- based research organization. “We’ve already seen this movie one time, and it didn’t work out particularly well for Moscow.”

Russia provides a quarter of Europe’s gas, and the shutdown came as the continent suffered temperatures as low as minus 27.7 degrees Celsius (minus 17.9 Fahrenheit) in the eastern German state of Saxony, according to the German weather service. The conflict contrasts with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev’s statement in June that Russia would be a reliable supplier.

“To Western elites, this looks like Russian imperialism, like energy imperialism,” Alexander Rahr, a Russia analyst at the Berlin-based German Council on Foreign Relations, said in a phone interview. “There is a danger of a radical worsening of relations. Maybe we are living in a historic moment where we will reduce our dependency on Russian gas.”

www.bloomberg.com...
Russia is imperialist in that sense then.

They are going about their business quietly, and not shouting the odds.

They cut off gas to Ukraine and you say that they're going about their business quietly? That doesn't make sense here.

I'd really like to see some hard evidence and comparison of how they are behaving worse than the US and their allies, other than vague theories and "feelings"

I've just given you some.

Have russia invaded anywhere?

Yes. They bombed Georgia, unless, you don't consider that an invasion.

Have they sponsored terrorism whilst at the same time condemning it?

Yes. Russia is sponsoring Iran.

MOSCOW -Russia's state arms export agency said Monday it is supplying Iran with defensive weapons, including surface-to-air missiles, but did not say whether they include sophisticated long-range S-300 missiles.
Iranian media reported Sunday that Russia had begun supplying the S-300s — a course of action Israel and the United States have aggressively opposed.
Supplying the advanced missile systems to Iran would markedly change the military balance in the Middle East and the issue has been the subject of intense speculation and diplomatic wrangling for months.
Rosoboronexport said in a statement that "only weapons of a defensive nature are being supplied to Iran, including anti-aircraft weaponry." It added that, previously, Tor-M1 air-defense systems were supplied to Iran.
"Russia is developing military-technical cooperation with Iran in strict compliance with its international commitments stemming from nonproliferation agreements. This cooperation cannot be a source of concern for third countries," the statement said.

news.aol.com...

Or is it simply a case of they won't do what the west wants them to do?

What do you think the West wants Russia to do?

If so, why should they?

We just want them to cooperate with us. I don't think that's too much to ask for.

You didn't answer my last post - fair enough, you are under no obligation to do so.
But if you want this theory taken seriously, you'll need to flesh it out a little more.....

[edit on 10/1/2009 by budski]

I think I did that just now. I await your response.

Ok, first of all, all of this focusses on the fact that russia is being cold in business and is exploring diplomatic ties with other countries.

The economic imperialism thing by russia doesn't wash - they are simply not prepared to give ukraine a free ride, and why should they?

They have not cut off or even threatened to cut off european supplies for the simple fact that they pay their bills.

The Iran thing simply doesn't wash either - just because bush calls them terrorists doesn't mean they are.
Meanwhile, the US is supplying and sponsoring terrorist groups in Iran whose avowed desire is to overthrow a democratically elected government.

Nor does the georgia/ossetia argument wash - if mexico invaded texas do you think the US might respond?

Nor does the venezuela dea cut any ice - the ex mayor of london, Ken Livingstone had an oil deal with venezuela, does that make the UK dangerous?

Frankly, there is nothing in your assertions that makes russia look like anything but a major power conducting their business as they see fit - and who are we to argue?

The US is guilty of sponsoring terrorism - and yet you say nothing about that, instead trotting out all the MSM fallacies, including the ones about iran.

I'd suggest some real research is in order.

This assertion that russia is a danger to world peace is frankly ridiculous and shows a profound lack of understanding of realpolitik.

Oops! This post makes Americans seem more like bullies.
Why be afraid of a democratically elected President from Russia? "Someone should oust him"? Really? Sounds bullish to me.
What is so wrong if they want to do business with Venezuela and Iran?
The world is changing. It's called EVOLUTION.
That's all, it's neither good nor bad, it just is.
Powers may be shifting, who knows...

Did camera blow up or does it not work with FireFox 3?

reply to post by Frankidealist35


The decision by Russia to cut off gas to the Ukraine is technically correct from a business point of view. Russia gave plenty of warnings that gas would be cut unless partially or all payments could be made. At the end of the day the Ukraine did not pay the bills. Their gas was cut off. I have even heard they were willing to greatly reduce the debt if substantial payments were made.

From a moral point of view, it does seem rather heartless though - Ukraine without gas will lead many to freeze to death. Also, Russia is pretty well off in terms of resources, lack of foreign debt. etc. It would appear as if Russia is being bully in this case. Denying another country access to your gas reserves with the knowledge millions may die is unacceptable - unless of course the money was badly needed for the welfare of Russian citizens.

[edit on 10/1/2009 by ExamineAllViews]

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
IRussia is the new bully. Why isn't the MSM worried?

Because they know they can get better ratings by filling their air time with mindless drivel about Paris Hilton which the ignorant hordes eat up for breakfast. :shk:

Thank you budski, good rebuttal. It seems Franks main arguement is that Russia is a threat because they are cooperating with venezuela, and also because we may have to depend upon them at some time in the future for oil or gas. That makes them no more of a threat than BP amoco, or Exxon. In his post, it looks like Frank may be afraid of any country that may possibly surpass america in resources, or that may find economic independence FROM america. And indeed, its sad that so many americans fear the loss of america's preeminence as a dangerous or fearful thing. Seems they just have no idea how they could live with themselves if they couldnt run around telling other countries how much better than them we are.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


you're so lame. "war on terror?" u gotta be kidding nme. russia cut off ukraine gas to show them that if they join nato, they will turn off they gas a nd nother things. there's no war no terror. the terrorists are funded by cia and such(i.e. alqueda) usa is the bully building a wall of bitch nations around russia trying to tur n em agai nst russia by joi ning nato. russia knows this. ukraine is where most russians grandma lives! u dont mess with ukraine man. im russian i know. its like splitting mother and child.

There is an effort by TPTB for a massive dumping down of the world populations. It is more effective if it is focused against whole countries.
I actually try to to find out through the internet the levels in which we all had actually became dumber than at some levels by our ancestors.

I do believe the only problem with modern Russia is that its population will probably be the LAST population within a nation globally to will be effectively dumped down, at least enough for TPTB to force a Global consensus for a future NWO totalitarian government. Not because modern Russia population would be more clever than anyone else but because they posses a rogue character. They seem like they still are and still like to do things a bit "different"than everyone else. Truly they deserve the prize of being called the descendants of the Eastern Roman Empire as another poster mentioned earlier and I believe that in secret they seem they are wearing this recognition proudly, so everything I have stated above could be no mystery and no surprise for everyone that is fond of history.

and history will always repeat itself.

[edit on 12-1-2009 by spacebot]

I'd like some evidence to support this "russia bully" claim. Are they occupying foreign land? Are they bombing multiple countries? Are they manipulating world markets? No, that us. Thanks.

reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic


You want evidence?

Russia has cut off natural gas supply to Europe once already. They cut off gas to Ukraine... and so now they're no longer a reliable natural gas exporter.

Russia is supporting totalitarian regimes in the middle east and they're also supporting terrorists and funding them and giving them missile defense systems (with Iran).

I don't see how honestly you could deny that Russia is being a bully.

They're just doing what they always did. They're taking advantage of these other states to put the west at a disadvantage. They're making this a west versus east game.

Russia is just acting more like they always have done...

I've had this theory that Vladimir Putin will bring back the cold war with Russia for a long time since he was an EX KGB agent and that the Soviets didn't collapse but they were in the current government all along and it seems that my theory is coming true...

reply to post by Frankidealist35


Russia has NOT cut off gas supplies to Europe - they may have cut off Ukraines supply, except for essentials.

But they have never cut off Europe.

Get your facts right.

Russia has done nothing wrong - for the real culprits, look a few thousand miles west of european russia.

Russia is supporting a regime???

How about the saudi's and israeli's that the US supports?

[edit on 15/1/2009 by budski]

reply to post by budski


Russia has done nothing wrong except for starting a cold war and trying to take over many governments.

And when I said that Russia has cut off natural gas to Europe, I meant that they basically did, with this action with Ukraine they are showing that they don't want to export gas to Europe. This should be somewhat of a wakeup call on the European nations.

And I don't see why you blame everything on the US...

Please, don't throw that anti-American propaganda at me in this thread.

I stand by my theory that Russia is being a bully and all that deny it are just sympathizers.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


Blah, blah blah (j/k)

Russia has done nothing wrong - and believe me, speaking as a UK resident who lives as a european, I know.

There's no cold war anymore - except for the usual stuff that goes on between governments.

You're way off the mark on this one mate.

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
I am just worried that Russia may go back to their old ways. Putin is their leader. I've always had a theory that since Putin was Ex KGB he has a plan to get their policy back to the cold war days. Maybe it's propaganda but it has truth to it.

wasn't George H. W. Bush the Director of Central Intelligence C.I.A ?
or is this a double standard ?

It is OK for a US President to be an x-spy and also have the son of a spy in charge , but no other country is allowed to vote an x-spy to a possition of power?

Is it because the USA is always right and everyone else is just evil?

reply to post by budski


I know that Russia has done nothing wrong yet but they're building up alliances that make me believe that they're planning on doing something wrong. The #1 thing nations need to do before they go to war is to build alliances and make their economy stronger and increase their power in the international stage. Doesn't that sound anything like what Russia is doing? Do you see what I'm getting at?


reply to post by munkey66

I don't need you to tell me about the evils that neocons within our government have caused around the world. Please, these neoconservatives, who believe that it is of our interest to spread Democracy around the world by force do not represent the majority of our people. My theory is that Russia is building up their forces so they can challenge the West.

If no one challenges the west, the west then become the only ruling authority, when you only have one authority you no longer have a democracy, rather an autocracy where you will have no rights at all.

do you want democracy or autocracy?

reply to post by munkey66


No, but I would like for developed nations to not need to fight each other.

We don't need a repeat of the 20th century.