Understanding Randomness, page 1

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Topic started on 9-1-2009 @ 08:30 AM by juveous

An observer’s notion of what is ordered, what is random, and what is complex in its environment depends directly on its computational resources: the amount of raw measurement data, of memory, and of time available for estimation and inference.

~ James Crutchfield extracted from source

Very thought provoking words.

what appears random to one observer may not appear random to another observer. Consider two observers of a sequence of bits, only one of whom has the cryptographic key needed to turn the sequence of bits into a readable message. The message is not random, but is unpredictable for one of the observers. One of the intriguing aspects of random processes is that it is hard to know whether the process is truly random. The observer can always suspect that there is some "key" that unlocks the message. This is one of the foundations of superstition and is also what is a driving motive, curiosity, for discovery in science and mathematics.

Randomness

This is really in the response to those who put so much "faith" in chance.
After reading these two paragraphs, I have come to realize that my human understanding is not complete, in coming to the conclusion of randomness. I simply do not have the sufficient intelligence to other wise decipher what appears completely fortuitous.

It IS possible that nothing is random. Deny ignorance.

reply posted on 9-1-2009 @ 08:42 AM by whaaa

Originally posted by juveous:
Is It possible that nothing is random. Deny ignorance.

There could be patterns that are so huge that human perception of time isn't adequate to see the patterns.

Or is it possible that chaos and randomness can flash in and out of existence, quantum style depending on weather the time sequence is being observed.

On a personal level; I prefer free will and randomness but my preference don't mean squat. And these types of questions make my head hurt. Thanks a lot juveous!

reply posted on 9-1-2009 @ 08:47 AM by nyk537

Perceiving patterns and organizational structures are a fundamental feature of the human psyche. All of us, whether consciously or not try to locate patterns or structure in everything we see or encounter. Whether it be seeing faces in random patterns of dots or in the clouds or trying to make sense of random sets of data as you mentioned.

When we consciously realize we do this though, it can create a sense of enlightenment because we will try to apply this to every aspect of our daily lives.

Good thread.

reply posted on 9-1-2009 @ 08:55 AM by SailorinAZ

Funny that you bring this up because I have been thinking about this lately. I hate to think that everything is predestined but I am really beginning to think that the majority of people that we meet/come in contact with is not just random.

For example: I once met a woman on an airplane. Talked to her a little bit. Months later while in another unrelated city, I happened to see her standing right in front of me while I was parked in my car. She was standing just a few feet in front of me.

I was to stupid in those days to take any action/say anything to her.

reply posted on 9-1-2009 @ 09:41 AM by whaaa

I spend a fair amount of time at the poker table; both in the casino and www.

Not to see patterns, trends, streaks is quick way to insure a trip back to the ATM machine. I also feel there is some high strange mystical/psychic component just beneath the surface in these types of situations; that I have been trying to figure out for 20 years.

I also have found that there are subtle cues in the either when a streak is about to happen; both personally and for others. Now if I just had the discipline to change my style of play to take advantage, perhaps I could be a better gambler.

reply posted on 9-1-2009 @ 09:47 AM by nyk537

Another interesting aspect to the psychology of randomness and patterns.

Once a person realized that they are noticing patterns everywhere they can begin to feel as though they can manipulate them. Your poker scenario is a prime example of this that is brought up quite often.

reply posted on 9-1-2009 @ 11:13 AM by juveous

I think that there are a lot of people that deny instances of chance, due to coincidence.

Just taking one event in a point of time and referencing it to another to find odd and improbable similarities will spark an understanding of possible order.

All the paranoid, the schizophrenic, even the conspirative all have some psyche of order in their understanding.

connecting the dots are alleviating randomness in those thought processes.
Despite if the dots are wrong or right, It is the attempt to not accept the notion of chance.

I'm not talking about probability or statistics in chaos or even determinism.
This is really about our understanding to what we don't know.
When arriving to conclusions of randomness, it is simply saying "I don't know why it happened but the odds of it happening are this..."

edit: Volition (conscious choice), has order, because it is ordained from within the mind of understanding. So for the one who spoke about believing in free will, It is irrelevant to other things that appear random, this is of course if you understand why you choose anything at all.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by juveous]

reply posted on 26-1-2010 @ 09:40 AM by dragonsmusic

"I simply do not have the sufficient intelligence to other wise decipher what appears completely fortuitous"

You don't have the intelligence to understand it. I agree.

reply posted on 26-1-2010 @ 09:59 AM by redoubt

reply to post by juveous

There are four possibilities:

1. Nothing is random, everything is fate driven.
2. There is no fate, only random occurrence.
3. Fate and randomness exist side-by-side as reactionary, mutually opposed forces.
4. Fate and randomness exist side-by-side as reactionary, mutually dependent forces.

I tend to favor #4.

reply posted on 26-1-2010 @ 10:47 AM by pharaohmoan

reply to post by juveous

I my opinion because there appears an even distribution pattern over time with regard to randomness and clumps of units spiking out of randomness are rare then I submitt that there is a underlying law to randomness and that the whole thing is designed to give the illusion of randomness.

Few understand this which is a shame as it offers other insights!

reply posted on 26-1-2010 @ 12:14 PM by juveous

reply to post by dragonsmusic

Dragonsmusic...I swear man I like you, I really do.

1. Thanks for bumping my thread

2. since this one is mine, the least you could do is put in some input, at least remotely related to the topic, ok?

Edit: spelled your name wrong/bumping

[edit on 26-1-2010 by juveous]

[edit on 26-1-2010 by juveous]

reply posted on 26-1-2010 @ 12:24 PM by juveous

Originally posted by redoubt
reply to post by juveous

There are four possibilities:

1. Nothing is random, everything is fate driven.
2. There is no fate, only random occurrence.
3. Fate and randomness exist side-by-side as reactionary, mutually opposed forces.
4. Fate and randomness exist side-by-side as reactionary, mutually dependent forces.

I tend to favor #4.

This is very close to what I think as well, if not right on the money.
Some people think the 2 are mutually exchangeable, but really I think its more how people express situations. When we come across the patterns that seem to to have no driven motive and control or order, we perceive it as random because our entire life consist of calculating and interpreting information into decisions we have control over. So what we choose (most of the time) isn't random, but it's really more of an expression of our arranged information.

[edit on 26-1-2010 by juveous]

reply posted on 26-1-2010 @ 01:54 PM by dragonsmusic

Originally posted by juveous
reply to post by dragonsmusic

Dragonsmusic...I swear man I like you, I really do.

1. Thanks for pumping my thread

2. since this one is mine, the least you could do is put in some input, at least remotely related to the topic, ok?

Edit: spelled your name wrong

[edit on 26-1-2010 by juveous]

I don't believe you like me ,man.
And I was being on topic.

reply posted on 26-1-2010 @ 02:08 PM by suicydking

Originally posted by whaaa
I spend a fair amount of time at the poker table; both in the casino and www.

Not to see patterns, trends, streaks is quick way to insure a trip back to the ATM machine. I also feel there is some high strange mystical/psychic component just beneath the surface in these types of situations; that I have been trying to figure out for 20 years.

I also have found that there are subtle cues in the either when a streak is about to happen; both personally and for others. Now if I just had the discipline to change my style of play to take advantage, perhaps I could be a better gambler.

I play collectible card games with my friends. One guy has a knack for tapping on his deck and naming a card, usually one that sets him up for a win. Then, he usually winds up drawing that exact card on his next turn. He claims that he goes through the probabilities in his head and knows the odds, but it happens often enough that it seems supernatural.

He's also an ace at poker, but none of my friends are stupid enough to challenge him. He has poker night with a different group, and wins often enough that he can rely on it for real, substantial income.

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