Originally posted by Jacob08

Yes and do you think that would have been possible if the UK killed dozens of Irish children in response to IRA attacks or would it have led to escalation of the conflict? The IRA is really more similar to Fatah then Hamas, Hamas is a whole new level of hatred and intolerance. Conflicts are not one sided affairs, it's all about cause and effect. There are people who don't want the conflict to end and it's important not to play into their hands. [edit on 9-1-2009 by Jacob08]

There are certainly more subtle ways to diffuse situations like this - infiltration, psyops, assasinations. Above the table negotiations never seem to work with Hamas. The one thing that keeps being a problem when negotiating with Hamas is their refusal to acknowledge Israel's right to exist - it's in their charter. Seems that's a deal breaker for them every time.

Originally posted by fnIrish

Originally posted by Jacob08

Yes and do you think that would have been possible if the UK killed dozens of Irish children in response to IRA attacks or would it have led to escalation of the conflict? The IRA is really more similar to Fatah then Hamas, Hamas is a whole new level of hatred and intolerance. Conflicts are not one sided affairs, it's all about cause and effect. There are people who don't want the conflict to end and it's important not to play into their hands. [edit on 9-1-2009 by Jacob08]

There are certainly more subtle ways to diffuse situations like this - infiltration, psyops, assasinations. Above the table negotiations never seem to work with Hamas. The one thing that keeps being a problem when negotiating with Hamas is their refusal to acknowledge Israel's right to exist - it's in their charter. Seems that's a deal breaker for them every time.

I agree. As long as Hamas exists and continues to have influence in Gaza there can be no peace. I just think that the tactics being used to destroy Hamas are only making their movement stronger and more extreme. The same was true of the tactics used against Fatah and I believe those tactics lead to the situation where a group like Hamas could gain popular support. The tricky thing is creating a situation where Hamas loses it's support and I believe killing children (regardless of the reason) does the exact opposite.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by Jacob08]

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The truth is much more simple than anyone will let it be.

Human Beings do know love and compassion
Human Beings also know hate and destruction
Fear is opposite of Love

Why do wars exist?

Because people are afraid
because people are ignorant
because people are fearful, loveless, and misquided.

Why are these wars being faught? Most of them are over religion. Religion was based to organize the good qualities of humanity and reinforce them through repetitive instillation of those beliefs. Religion is failing as Humanity gains more knowledge- that is not to say that there should be no religion... because our bodies do posess souls and connections to things we cannot yet explain...

Humanity has to continue to evolve, we will have to evolve for a very long time, because we have for a long time been primitive and our brains have thus been active on a primitive basis and we need to become more and more Civilized and act on a more constructive basis.

All of your distaste for the active problems in this world prove that we are almost there but we can never get there until current religion is ceased and we explore the truth in all religions because believe it or not they are all connected.

Im not sure exactly what the Governments are up to but they do have Humanitys Protection as their top priority... Why Gaza? Why Kids? Well REGARDLESS of all of the ATS PARANOIA... Some things do happen because of ignorance... Those people have so much hate breeding that it just doesn't register to some of us, such as yourselves who are disgusted with this. THERE IS A REAL THREAT, However, and so Israel is taking care of a threat that has been created because of ignorance and hatred because of false teachings that have spread throughout the planet for our entire life-time... supposibly since Adam and Eve

I am sad for all of those people but what has happened to them is just a repeat of the ignorance that has filled this human planet for generations after generations. Maybe the awareness will increase amongst the rest of us and we will learn to love our brothers... until we do, wars like these will continue to be fought and we will continue to be disgusted with ourselves until our subconscious' are filled with love and compassion... Some people call that Ignorant, Hippy, Gay or whatever they wish, they fear they cannot be men, aggressive and all of those things. Love however does not take away our human qualities, just the ability to learn the truth of our creation.

Truth is the Light
Fear is non existant, it is everything but what is real, it can be twisted it can be malleable, it is death. If any of you do not understand that Im sorry for my oddness but, Fear holds you back... and you should learn to put fears aside and become whole to your BEING. The last sentence is meant for you to think about, it is more complex then you will ever know.

Originally posted by Retseh
Who on earth had the single digit IQ required to make you a moderator?

I see nothing "moderate" about your rants.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by Retseh]

FredT is a member first, and a moderator second.
I don't see him moderating here, i see him participating as a member!

[edit on 9/1/09 by blupblup]

Originally posted by Retseh

Originally posted by FredT

This has gone from a supposed self defence exersize to out and out genocide.

Thanks for that rational and balanced viewpoint

To suggest that the Israelis are committing genocide because of a few hundred civilian deaths is dementia pure and simple.

Who on earth had the single digit IQ required to make you a moderator?

I see nothing "moderate" about your rants.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by Retseh]

Who on earth had the single digit IQ required to make you a moderator? I see nothing "moderate" about your rants.

stop making personal insults , its a violation Of T & C ......

trolls like you should be reined in and banned

[edit on 9-1-2009 by sadchild01]

Okay guys...please let's get back on topic...

Originally posted by Retseh

Originally posted by FredT

This has gone from a supposed self defence exersize to out and out genocide.

Thanks for that rational and balanced viewpoint

To suggest that the Israelis are committing genocide because of a few hundred civilian deaths is dementia pure and simple.

Who on earth had the single digit IQ required to make you a moderator?

I see nothing "moderate" about your rants.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by Retseh]

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Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson ~ prosecutor in the Nuremberg trials of accused Nazi war criminals

If certain acts of violation of treaties are crimes, they are crimes whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them, and we are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us.

and more poignantly........

We must never forget that the record on which we judge these defendants is the record on which history will judge us tomorrow. To pass these defendants a poisoned chalice is to put it to our own lips as well.

Israel has picked up the chalice.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by UmbraSumus]

[edit on 9-1-2009 by UmbraSumus]

Almost every commentator on this issue worth a grain of salt has stated quite clearly it is genocide - please keep up. This has been an accepted term for the approach Israel has taken to the "palestinian question" for well over 20 years -

Just came news that UN will continue Aid operations... Soon as possible - do they get armed escort?

Why is noby telling Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israel? Better yet, why is noby protesting Hamas' use of civilian locations to fire these mortar and rocket attacks from?

I am no big fan of Irsael, but Hamas is the group responsible for these dead children.

What would you do to defend yourself against a terrorist attacking your city if you knew the explosive ladden van he was hiding travelling in held a shield of children? Would you just let them explode at their designated target? Answer this question, I dare you!

Hamas is using these children as fodder to protect their offensive instalations and their senior leadership. They are the ones who need to be stopped, not Israel who is simply trying to prevent these terrorists from blowing themselves up in an Israeli market place of restaurant, or launching missles into retirement homes.

And still people try and defend Israel even with so many small kids dead. Amazes me.

Even for arguments sake, that we all agreed that the "Hamas use school buildings" propaganda was actually true. It still doesn't justify dropping bombs on them when there are kids in them.

At least I assume, for example if your child was in a hostage situation, you would prefer the situation was resolved with a sniper bullet rather than a rocket launcher.

And yeah why not just say it, we all know it, they're trying to wipe out all the Palastinians because they wont move. Hamas is a great excuse.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by Lazyninja]

Originally posted by Retseh

Originally posted by FredT

This has gone from a supposed self defence exersize to out and out genocide.

Thanks for that rational and balanced viewpoint

To suggest that the Israelis are committing genocide because of a few hundred civilian deaths is dementia pure and simple.

Who on earth had the single digit IQ required to make you a moderator?

I see nothing "moderate" about your rants.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by Retseh]

Retseh,

While I actually share some common ground with your opinion of the situation, these kinds of personal attacks are really unnecessary, especially against a well-established and respected board member like FredT. I would advise you to take the extra time to re-read your comments before clicking the "Post Reply" button. Personally, I read each of my posts aloud, and ask myself "does that sound right" and "would I say that to someone's face"?

FredT,

C'mon, dude! Genocide? Lets acknowledge some good ole' fashioned hyperbole when we see it, eh?

200-300 civilian deaths in a military operation against two warring states is barely a blip on the screen. It's all about winner and losers, and who ends up writing the history book. That's the 30,000 civilians killed in Dresden and the 30,000 civilians killed on Okinawa are listed as collateral civilian deaths resulting from necessary military operations, not "genocide". NATO killed more than 1,000 civilians in Yugoslavia with bombs and cruise missiles but, again, since we have the moral high ground, not too many people are whining about it. Never mind the thousands and thousands of Afghan civilians who have died in the crossfire between the US and our Allies in our war against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. All legitimate operations against real bad guys. Or, bad guys by our estimation, anyways.

The Palestinians get WAY more international media attention then they deserve. Why? Because there is a lot of radical islamics out there back by oil money that makes sure their cause gets a lot of play in the eastern media. The western media, you ask? Hmmmmm. I wonder why so many westerners are soooooo supportive of the "Palestinians"? I wonder....?

Could it be who they are fighting? Those dirty..........Israelis....yeah, they're called "Israelis" now....

Originally posted by sadchild01

stop making personal insults , its a violation Of T & C ......

trolls like you should be reined in and banned

Trolls are generally accepted to be those who make false and deliberately inflammatory statemements on posting boards, such as people who accuse Israel of committing genocide. Clearly an outrageous comment. And that was something my original post addressed - i.e. the topic/allegation.

Secondly I didn't insult the poster, read it carefully.

Thirdly, your post contains nothing about the original question and you also call ME a troll - both of which are clear violations of the TOC.

Back to the topic.

Israel is not committing genocide, the deaths of those children (if true) are an every day fact of wars around the globe, we simply accept it in African countries, and only cry foul when "developed" nations stand accused.

I still say that those original statements made by the OP were outrageous, unsupportable, and deliberately inflammatory - that's my opinion and I stand by it.