UN: 257 Palestinian children killed in Gaza

This is pretty much the reality of the situation. There will be no peace from the Israeli's unless Hamas is no longer an authority in Gaza, actually unless Hamas is completely dismantled Israel will not cease to fire.

Hamas is a ridiculous organisation that cares nothing for peace. They must go. The international community must step in here and say that the only way forward is an immediate ceasefire, UN troops in the strip, an election with Hamas off the list.

As evil as Israel may be, Hamas is no better and the time for pointing fingers has come to an end. We need solutions.

reply to post by FlyersFan

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I never thought government gave a damn about this site. But I'm asking you whether you "feel" like you have to defend child murder by simply inserting the Hamas crimes, as if that justified "collateral murder"?

People are too used to twisting logic whenever they feel like "maintaining" the discussion.

Our discussion isn't going to change anything in this world. But how this world really functions? As a blood feud, I'd say. Because blood feud is not about killing the culprit, but those who are dear to him This is what is going on between Israel and Hamas, and those "dear" to them are the "collateral" victims.

I explained how it happened and who is to blame. Hamas.
And no I dont' feel like I HAVE to do anything at all here.
This is just one of many chat sites on the internet.
It will change nothing in the Gaza.

The UN is obviously accepting (enthroning) Hamas as true representative of the Palestinians. What a farce!

The UN is simply simulating "peace effort". This effort is going to produce nothing but another fart.

There is big money in this, and this is commendable from the profiteers' point of view. The ideology of "let the strong win" is with such a price. I hope they are happy with being smarter and stronger, as being "top of food chain".

And Israeli soldiers now really resemble the twisted Humans as Orcs, and Hamas is just another breed of the same derogated human beings.

It is a fact right or wrong. So how it get stopped? Hamas' solution has been to continue lobbing inneffective rockets randomly into Israel. This strategy has accomplished what you see there today.

reply to post by crmanager

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Show me video footage some sort of proof, not just something the Israeli army has fed you, of children being put up on roofs being used as human shields, show me footage of this.

posted by fnIrish

reply to post by Nammu

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Saw that exact report myself....

It is sickening.

It must stop!

You are missing the point my friend.

Hamas came around in the 80's due to the actions of Israel creating a breeding ground for so called "terrorists"

As I said in my previous post:

If the US military came into your community, blockaded you in there from both sides so you couldn't leave and pushed you in overcrowded and dyer conditions and then stopped aid from getting in, etc, Would you sit idly by whiles your family and children's quality of life is reduced and you are trapped? Or would you rally support to make a change by ANY MEANS NECESSARY to end the blockade.

This is what Hamas is doing.

I don't know but I wouldn't count on Hamas just laying down their arms and as we have seen for so many years going after an organisation like this with brute force only makes them or their successors stronger. I think it's going to take a change of strategy from Israel (I say this because they have a functioning government with a military who can be commanded to change tactics. On the Palestinian side it's a mess and there is no real command and control. Even before Hamas was in power this was the case) and time. Of course if ending this conflict was simple it would have been over decades ago.



[edit on 9-1-2009 by Jacob08]

It is very easy to become Hamas. All you need is to be stupid and scruples.

Whoever is recruiting people for Hamas, isn't sitting in Gaza at all. Those commanders of Hamas who are in Gaza are most likely criminals recruited by the interested party and have not another choice.

Hamas is someone's projection and it sure as hell isn't for the good of Palestinian people.

As stated in so many threads now there is more to this than meets the eye. You will notice that that area (even more including Jordan) was entirely known as The Mandate for Palestine. This was determined by the first attempt at global government known as the League of Nations. The 20 years that preceded the mandate were spent in WW1 and fighting other sorts of "Savages." The British Mandate lasted officially from 1920 - 1948.

The British defeated Ottoman Turkish forces in 1917 and occupied Palestine and Syria. By looking closely we see that a man named T E Lawrence formed an Arab army and they did a vast amount of fighting, capturing various areas and controlling entire regions for the British. In the end (1917) after Lawrence promised the Arabs their land his boss General Allenby reneged.

It turns out that European Jews paid substantial sums of money to the British in order to further their cause and see the destruction of the Germans in WW1. So, the Balfour Declaration of 1917 had promised to create and foster a Jewish national home in Palestine. Vast numbers of Jewish settlers began arriving after this and by 1948 had over run the area. You will note that Palestine became Israel even though the Balfour Declaration only called for a Jewish state in Palestine.

Now the Americans and the British had no intention of loosing control of the Mideast but neither wanted to take the time or expense to exercise that control through direct military means. They did what our nations do the best and got the indigenous populations of the Mideastern area to fight it out. We expend minimal effort and manpower and the Arabs fight among themselves. This sort of guerrilla/proxy warfare has gone on now for more than 100 years.

Things in the Mideast were relatively calm till Lyndon B. Johnson got into the drivers seat and crashed the car so to speak.

LINK TO FULL TEXT



Next Richard Nixon picked the car up out of the shop and smacked it up pretty good!

NIXON & THE MIDEAST FULL TEXT



This guy took the USA OFF the GOLD STANDARD for crying out loud.

Next we get Ford, Carter, Regan, Bush, Clinton, Bush & Obama and lot's of mucking about in them oil fields but I'm rapidly running out of room to type. The essential problem for the US is that nearly all of these Presidents got us involved with what George Washington insisted we never should... FOREIGN ENTANGLEMENTS!!! Obama is not even in the White House and he was touring around Europe campaigning or pontificating or whatever you want to call it.

We get involved in this way not to win friends and influence enemies but instead to INTERJECT ourselves as the first in line at the oil pump. We don't want Russia or China to get in front of us. We are like the Big Guy that cuts in line and thinks he is "all that." When OPEC was created we were in that too and from that day forward any time oil was bought or sold by any nation in the entire world that sale was conducted in USD PERIOD!!

This hegemony has given the USA the keys or the check book if you like to want to make all of these Presidents "drive the car" in the desert. We are in 2 wars and a "Global Meltdown" and I hate to tell you but it was inevitable. The fly in the ointment came in the form of SADDAM HUSSEIN who in the year 2000 switched from USD to EURO.

ARTICLE IN TIME MAGIZINE YEAR 2000

This one little twist is precisely why we are bogged down in 2 wars and looking for a 3rd with Iran. George Bush told the world about his cut list known as "THE AXIS OF EVIL" and what he didn't ever say is that all your country need do to get on that list is to even threaten to turn away from the USD.

Here we are working up a real good sweat slapping the Iraqis around for YEARS in order to send the message that if you trade in anything other than USD we will "BLANK YOUR BLANK THE BLANK UP!" The dollar is loosing its poll position as the global trade currency. Just the idea is enough for all involved to loose faith in the USA. Since Richard Nixon the USD is FIAT paper. He dropped the gold standard and the silver and so we just have printed notes that have no backing and now are suffering a crisis of FAITH.

Now, Iran has expressed major interest in going to the EURO or a "mixed basket" and he is not alone. The idea is to get IRAN to intercede in the fight for Gaza. Then the USA can surmount a joint attack against IRAN with. We all know about the meeting between Iran and Iraq and then Iraq wants the USA OUT! I can't state is as a fact but we have been suppling and training the "New Iraqi Army" for years now. Can we guess what their job will be??

I'm of the opinion that this will grow and the outcome will be tragic for the USA and the world!

I agree. I would wager that it's a coalition of serveral extremist Muslim states but primaily Iran. Let's face it, if Iran can keep Israel focused on Gaza then Israel isn't focusing on Iran's nuke projects.

reply to post by fnIrish

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You should know a little more about the social dynamic of Hamas .(fnIRISH?
Its not unlike that which played out in N.Ireland.
Any group such as Hamas wouldn`t last a month without the support of the people, exactly the same as the I.R.A`s reliance on their community, to strike at the British and melt back into the community.

This idea that if only Hamas could be removed .... yes you can kill people,lots of people , but ideals are harder to quench.

To your average Palestinian, Hamas seem to be the only one doing "something"... after the coruption of PLO/Arafat/Fatah.
Until somebody else steps forward to do something for the people , Hamas will have a mandate from the people.

I saw the term "Big Picture" used on this thread , we must remind ourselves that some of the worlds worst atrocities were carried out by people with the "big picture" in mind .
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Hamas` "Big Picture" accepts that their actions will lead to civilians being targeted.
Israels "Big Picture" accepts the targeting of civilians.
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The disgust of the Holocaust was not that it was visited on the Jews , but that it was visited on any group of human being !
The lesson should be that we will not permit suffering to be doled out, to any group of innocents en masse ever again.

You make a good point with the comparison. The primary difference between Hamas and the I.R.A. is that eventually, the people's tolerance for the I.R.A's violence began to fade. The lack of support from the people was what got them to come to the table with realistic terms. That's what led to the eventual cease-fire that lasted. The Palestinian people have not yet lost their tolerance for violence.

Yes and do you think that would have been possible if the UK killed dozens of Irish children in response to IRA attacks or would it have led to escalation of the conflict? The IRA is really more similar to Fatah then Hamas, Hamas is a whole new level of hatred and intolerance. Conflicts are not one sided affairs, it's all about cause and effect. There are people who don't want the conflict to end and it's important not to play into their hands.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by Jacob08]

reply to post by fnIrish

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I take you point, a certain "fatigue" certainly sets in after a few decades.
The people in N. IRE had something to lose by "going back" to violence, i fear that the Palestinians have nothing to lose.
Perhaps therein lies a facet of the solution.
Give the people something to live for........there are too many things to die for ...eh ~


The bombing campaign in mainland Britain also got peoples attention.

But i suppose the N.Ireland community was not segregated - which ultimately forced the compromise. That and the fact that the British taxpayer was getting sick of footing the bill.

From listening to American contributors on ATS ,it would seem the will to fund the Israeli military/government to the tune of BILLIONS every decade is waining.

In politics, Palestinians have some lousy choice. And who is going to get rid of the bullies? The bullies imposed themselves. I'm sure Palestinians would be happy without those choices.

But, mind is boggled with such a narrow political reality. And not just in Palestine.

Ordinary people are quite helpless.

Look how it works. Masses of people can create a rock throwing session to declare they don't want some authority. But, then, they are condemned as being "anarchic".

In Greece, when policeman killed that youth, there were anarchic masses throwing rocks about. Crazy mob!
Then someone shot a policeman, and the whole police rallied to find and punish the shooter, only they weren't called "anarchic mob".

Palestinians are facing the whole '"organized world" against themselves, Hamas plus Israel plus USA plus UN plus Egypt etc. All "organized" forces are against them.

And when organized forces get into action, the "collaterals" must pay dearly and lower their eyes.

The americans and english used an awful lot of mind control in ulster to stop the ira. I will give you an example of

"Say a man in the ira was living with his family. The english would use high tech mind control to cause problems in the family, like getting his wive to say she woould leave him if he did not stop the ira stuff. They would microwave large sections of catholic areas, to either kill or make those people less spirited."

Life is never like it is on the news, england commited an awful lot of crimes in northern ireland to get anything like peace. I gave you the above example to show you how far england and america went to bring peace there, and i am sure irish families in the north are stil paying for what happened years ago, i.e still being microwaved.

You cannot really do this in gaza as, for one thing those people have no lives, do they. So while in some ways it is similar, in others the same ways to deal with it are not.

[edit on 1/9/2009 by andy1033]

Excellent point! There are people in Gaza now that are old enough to have grandchildren that have never known any other existence than exists now.

Hope can be a powerful motivator.