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Numbers Don't Lie-Israel Is Being Careful.

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posted on Jan, 9 2009 @ 11:37 AM

Originally posted by huckfinn
I didn't say you should excuse Israel, I said you should find comfort in knowing this could have been much, much worse.

I don't think that 100 dead is okay, I think you have no idea just how bad this could have been.

Israel and Hamas are at war. War is where people die horrible deaths. If you don't want people to die horrible deaths, don't start wars.

That's an excuse in and of itself. And can you really prove to me who started this war? Israel carried out a raid into Palestine and killed people only 5 days after the inception of the cease-fire, months before this current crisis. And even with this current crisis, it has in no way been proven that Hamas initiated it.

You are still not realizing that what you are seeing is as good as you could have expected to see, given the circumstances. Some things are going to happen whether you want them to or not, what you are witnessing in Gaza is as good as you could have expected.

Actually no, there are other actions that can be taken besides war. If Hamas are in the wrong for firing rockets and killing Israeli civilians, what does it make Israel for killing 257 Palestinian children? How is that "as good as could have been expected?" You must not have very high standards of expectations.

Something, Inanna threatened it once, is trying to open up the gates of Hell so that the dead roam the earth and consume the living.

Your outrage for what is happening lacks a true understanding of what could really be happening and a rejection of the difference in Magnitude of a real War.

But I am sure you are determined to continue to express your unenlightened anger.

Are you actually serious? I lack understanding of current affairs and “continue to express my unenlightened anger” because a mythical Sumerian Goddess once threatened to “open the gates of hell so the dead can roam the earth and consume the living?” This is your excuse? This is your justification?

I walk away now.

posted on Jan, 9 2009 @ 01:02 PM
Just a little observation from someone who actually knows very little. I wouldn't discount that, however, since the majority of people in the world know very little about what happens in the Mideast, what happens in war, or what really happens in International politics. And since it is the collective viewpoint of the majority of those uninformed souls like myself which makes up public opinion... perhaps that makes my viewpoint more noteworthy than it should be.

This war has been going on since long before any of us were alive, before any of us were a twinkle in our great-grandfather's eye. Both Israel and Islam attribute the start to one figure: Father Abraham and his preferential treatment of Isaac over Ishmael. That is not for this thread, but it does tend to silence the argument over who threw the first bomb, in my opinion anyway.

Israel hates Hamas. Hamas hates Israel. Israel hates Palestine. Palestine hates Israel. There is no logical reason for it; it simply is, just as surely as the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. As an American, I tend to feel more empathy for Israel, as Israel has more similar standards to my culture than the Muslim countries: they treat women better, they tend to not suicide-bomb civilians, and they appear more open to civilized diplomatic efforts. That would not necessarily make them 'better', but it does make them more familiar to my observations. That's called 'human nature', when one has more empathy for the familiar than for the unfamiliar. So if anyone wishes to berate me for this attitude, please go to the source and beat up a small furry mammal somewhere first.

I would love for the Middle East to be at peace. I really would. But I would also love to have my bills paid without going in to work, or to have a new car magically appear in my driveway with my name on the title. None of these things are going to happen, regardless of how much I wish they would or how 'right' it would be if they would.

In my opinion, as a citizen of the USA, I believe we are handling this right at the moment. We are staying out of it. The US did not even vote on the recent UN resolution, as I believe was proper. Israel is a military ally, and that could be seen as a conflict of interest. We did enter the talks to make sure the resolution passed was, in our representatives' opinions, fair to all parties involved. That I believe was proper as well.

Now as to whether Israel is slaughtering the Gaza people, it depends on your viewpoint. We as a 'civilized' people tend to view things from our own perspective. Remember school? What happened when two boys simply did not like each other? They fought, and fought, and fought, until one of them left. Sure, back then we had teachers and faculty who got into the fray and broke things up, but who is playing the role of teacher here? No one. The UN is a joke as far as peacekeeping efforts go. ("One of our guys got shot! We're leaving!")

Imagine two neighbors who simply hate each other, and no police force around to stop them from attacking each other. The weaker will be in constant fear and therefore will consistently look for ways to 'equalize' his position relative to the stronger. That is what Hamas is doing. The stronger will be enraged by these actions and will demand a stop to them. That is what Israel is doing. Eventually, unless a livable compromise for both can be reached, there will be a fight to the death. That is what is starting now.

As for how careful Israel is being, I really tend to agree with the OP that they are exercising some caution. Israel could have wiped out Gaza and turned it into a cemetery plot inside of 24 hours if they had wanted to. Are they being as careful as they could possibly be? Probably not. Israel hates Hamas, Hamas hates Israel, remember? But the bottom line is that we should all quit crying over who threw the first bomb and who killed who. This is something we do not see in our daily lives. It's called 'WAR'. War is when two groups of people decide to kill the other. It's a lot different than punishment or law enforcement. There is only one rule in war: kill the enemy before they kill you. Period.

I have a friend who was a drill sergeant in Vietnam. He explained to me on more than one occasion what the train of thought was when patrolling:

"Does it have a weapon? If yes, kill it."
"Might it have a weapon? If yes, kill it."
"Could it get a weapon later? If yes, kill it."
"Might it want to get a weapon later? If yes, kill it."

Terrible words. Horrible thoughts. The very idea of taking a life over a future possibility is abhorrent to most people, including me. But that's what war is. It's you trying to kill your enemy because he is trying to kill you first. If you hesitate and he doesn't, you lose. And unlike video games, you don't get a second life. The enemy will shoot you, stab you, blow you apart, burn you alive, then immediately leave your rotting corpse and forget about you while he kills your friend right behind you, then his friend behind him, then... ad infinitum until he is killed.

So unless you are familiar with war, unless you have stood in the blood of your fallen friends, unless you have looked into the enemy's eyes while you pulled the trigger to launch a bullet to end his life, unless you have felt the concussion of a mortar blast as it destroyed everything around you... unless you have done these things, you should be careful, very careful, about playing armchair general. There is a reason our Generals are lifetime military men: experience. I have none of that experience, and I doubt many here do either.

So while I watch the choreographed excerpts and read the edited newslines and watch the manipulated videos about this latest aggression, I will do what I can: I will mourn the fallen, especially the civilians. I will even mourn them in their own customs, as evidenced by how the Palestinian people showed me on September 12, 2001. So if you will all excuse me while you continue your accusations over could have thrown how many bombs, I will be outside, dancing in the streets.


posted on Jan, 9 2009 @ 04:42 PM
A very well written post.

War is hell and civilians will be caught in the middle, sometimes intentionally.

I just feel that Israel is doing all it can to avoid hurting civilians.

posted on Jan, 9 2009 @ 04:49 PM
reply to post by Cadbury

Again, here is the dictionary definition for 'hammering' in the context in which I meant it:

Definitions. You know, I learned one major lesson from Bill Clinton and that is that everybody has their own way of interpreting definitions. I mean the guy said he didn't have sex with that woman. If Israel was hammering Gaza, you would see Israel hit them with everything they got 24/7.

posted on Jan, 13 2009 @ 04:58 PM

Originally posted by jam321
What I meant is that Israel calls them to evacuate the buildings and houses before they drop the bombs. Another example of them being careful. What other nation in the world do you know that does this?

What if they have no phone? A minor point when you consider the IDF rounded up civilians (mostly large families) and told them to go inside houses for shelter which they then promptly shelled repeatedly killing most of them. Then they refused the red crescent access and when they did eventually get to the housing the RC were ordered to leave without the casualties who were mostly starving children huddled next to their mother's dead bodies.

What other nation in the world do you know that does/did this?

[edit on 13-1-2009 by Goathief]

posted on Jan, 13 2009 @ 05:02 PM
reply to post by Goathief

A minor point when you consider the IDF rounded up civilians (mostly large families) and told them to go inside houses for shelter which they then promptly shelled repeatedly killing most of them.

Could you please provide a link or source to this?


posted on Jan, 13 2009 @ 05:10 PM

Originally posted by jam321

Could you please provide a link or source to this?



Just use google for more, it was all over the news here for days - it's one of the many reasons the UN are investigating Israel for war crimes.

Have another for good measure:

[edit on 13-1-2009 by Goathief]

posted on Jan, 13 2009 @ 05:14 PM
How come when it comes to the Holocaust, people nitpick over numbers much higher than this,
But when it comes to the Gaza conflict, people are very eager to round up numbers and every single additional death counts?

Sorry, just hypothetical and something to think about. Why do we sometimes estimate numbers and don't at other times?

posted on Jan, 13 2009 @ 05:25 PM
reply to post by Goathief

First, let me say that both incidents should be investigated by an impartial organization or country.

Second, what i have read is based on witnesses that may or may not be members of Hamas. That doesn't discount from the seriousness of the issue. However, you and I both know that things aren't always what they seem. Could it be possible that Hamas threatened people to say this? Could it be possible that the CRC tried to get in when there was still fighting going on? What good is a dead red cross member? There are many possibilities of what may or may have not transpired. We can either jump to a conclusion or we could wait for an investigation to see what really happened.

It is kind of like when you see a picture of a dead Palestinian. Instinct tells you that Israel did but the reality is that no one knows except the people that were there.

As for some not having phones. Your point on that one is well taken.

Appreciate your contribution to the thread.

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