the Holocaust did NOT happen, page 23
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reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 03:32 AM by mmiichael
Originally posted by Exuberant1
reply to post by mmiichael


No,

I want you to back up the claim you just made with some corroborative evidence.

Should that evidence exist in abundance; you should have no difficulty in locating, citing and posting it here to substantiate your claim.

On ATS we have a higher standards than most sites, I'm sure you know that by now.

If you don't post corroboration in your reply to this post then I will assume you don't have any, and are here to issue provocations to the members.





Thousands of books and articles, warehouses full of documentation, archived photos and 35 mm film footage, millions of still living witnesses. Plus many websites, excluding the anti-Semitic ones with their manipulated data and BS.

But you're asking me to provide proof of the Holocaust.

Go to a library, search through Google. Start at Wikipedia. A good summary, lots of photos, charts, citations.

en.wikipedia.org...

It will take about 2 years to read the most easily available literature and look at the thousands of photographs.

Then you can call the Wiesental Center or even the Holocaust Museum and ask for the phone numbers of survivors in your area.

After that come back and tell us if the information does not meet your stringent requirements for proof.


M



[edit on 12-5-2009 by mmiichael]

[edit on 12-5-2009 by mmiichael]


reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 04:37 AM by Exuberant1
Nice strawman.

I did not ask you to provide proof that the Holocaust took place.

I asked you to provide corroboration for your claims in this post: www.abovetopsecret.com...


I include your primary claim and my request for corroboration below:

Originally posted by Exuberant1
Originally posted by mmiichael



No, they give their trust to anyone that tells them something they want hear.



Post examples of this.

You must have plenty.


...I did not ask you to "provide proof of the holocaust" - if you think I did, please quote from the post wherein the query was made.

As you did not provide any corroboration or substantiation in your reply, but instead misrepresented my request and made use of a strawman argument against questions not asked - I shall abide by my last post:

"If you don't post corroboration in your reply to this post then I will assume you don't have any, and are here to issue provocations to the members."

We are done here, Michael.

Have a good day.

[edit on 12-5-2009 by Exuberant1]


reply posted on 12-5-2009 @ 07:15 AM by Donnie Darko
Originally posted by ravenshadow13
PART I
First I'd really like to thank a handful of members for their support, even in the brief amount of time I went downstairs to drill my dad for the details- dates and numbers I always seem to forget.

This is my family's story. Of course Raven is not my real name. I'm 18 years old. I try not to talk about these things because, in all honesty, they are depressing. I also assumed people already knew about this and that there was no point repeating it. I was raised Jewish, and I suppose I am culturally like my mom, but I don't believe or follow Judaism. My dad was raised traditional, almost orthodox. My mom is more culturally Jewish- she is an atheist and believes in ETs (but no encounters, just a hypothetical thing). The grandmother I will be speaking of is my dad's mother. When I was little, my dad's dad died, and I never really got along with that side of the family to begin with- their accents were thick and strong and half the time I didn't understand what they were saying to me. They were (unlike many people think about Jews) not very wealthy. My grandpa was not keen on investing in much of anything, and my grandma listened to what he said.

I don't know when I first learned about the Holocaust. I think it happened gradually from the time I was born by overhearing conversations. I always wondered why my dad's family was so much smaller than my mom's. But there was no point in time when I "learned of" the Holocaust. When I got older, I traveled and heard my grandma speak. She spoke in public schools in many towns in my area, colleges, museums, and most recently she spoke at a government building regarding her experience and also about the current conflict in Darfur.

I'd like to note that ATS is the first place in my life that I have encountered people who don't believe in the Holocaust as I learned it.

This is the story that I was told by my father and grandmother about what happened in her life. This is the story that thousands of people have heard in schools and meetings all over the country, it is on record in the Holocaust museum, and in numerous other Holocaust archives. So I will tell it here and I don't want to ever explain again on this website or have to defend myself. That's why I rely on a lot of support from other members because honestly, I'm just a kid, I don't need to argue about things that are close to my heard. And after I am said and done, if you think I'm lying, then I think it shows poor character.

My grandmother was born in a small town called Jasina in an area that is now the Czech Republic. It is part of sub-Carpathian Lithuania, near Poland. My grandma's father (my great grandfather) owned a farm and the general store in town. My grandma had lots of animals when she was little- horses, dogs, cats (I think one's name was Mitsy). She walked to school every day and learned to speak Czech and Polish, as well as some English there. She had a mother (who I was named after), father, two sisters, and three brothers. There were gypsies in her town and her family always gave them food to eat. They were fairly wealthy for their town but didn't have much, and new shoes were a big deal back then.

When my grandma was 20, things started to change. Jasina became a ghetto and they couldn't really go anywhere, but things weren't too bad yet. In April 1944, when my grandma was about 20 and a half, Jasina was evacuated and she was separated from most of her family. She was sent to Auchwitz first, and as they were marching to the cattle cars, she was separated from her father who died in the camps. At this point in the story when my grandma tells it she always cries and I could try to put in the same emotion that she does regarding what he said to her but I just can't.

At Auchwitz she was separated from her mother and sisters. She tells the story of how they made two lines and one line led to a room where they shave your head and take your clothes, and the other led right to the gas showers. In Auchwitz they gave very little food, and here she saw Josef Mengele, who she said was very handsome but also very cruel. One day in line-up she smelled something horrible and asked somebody near her what the smell was. She was told it was the smell of her parents burning.

My grandma was in the famous death march out of Auchwitz. She was taken to a work camp 35 miles away where they put her on cattle cars. The trip on the cars was long, hot, and reeked of the diseased and dead people in the cars with her. People just went to the bathrooms everywhere, there was no food, it was totally dark.

From the cattle cars, she went to two different work camps- Gelsenkirchen and Essen. I think here she was still with her niece, who was about her age. They somehow managed to survive. Many older women and mothers who had been separated from their children gave my grandma some crumbs of bread. They had old bread, weak soup, and some other beverage, but only about half a bowl every two days.

From the work camps she went to Bergen-Belsen. While working either here or at the work camps she had broken her arm, which typically meant she would be killed as she was useless for the Nazis. However, one woman Nazi was kind to her and kept her as a translator because my grandma knew 6 languages at that point (7 now, she speaks English). They casted her arm but lice got underneath and ate at her flesh. She said the itching was horrible and she got infected.

Luckily, Bergen-Belsen was liberated in April 1945. She went to Sweden and stayed there for awhile and learned English. Then she came to America and met my grandpa and settled in New York. She crocheted and designed knitting and crocheting designs for magazines.
To be continued...



Oh. My. God. That is so terrible.

I have no doubt that at least 4-5 million Jews died in the Holocaust. The upsetting thing, I guess, is that the Israeli government uses this fact to cover their own acts against the Palestinians, and generally speaking, other groups that suffered in the Holocaust do not do the same.

However, the Jews are unique in terms of the percentage of the ethnicity that died in the Holocaust - something like what, 40%?


reply posted on 13-5-2009 @ 01:48 PM by mmiichael
Originally posted by Donnie Darko


I have no doubt that at least 4-5 million Jews died in the Holocaust. The upsetting thing, I guess, is that the Israeli government uses this fact to cover their own acts against the Palestinians, and generally speaking, other groups that suffered in the Holocaust do not do the same.

However, the Jews are unique in terms of the percentage of the ethnicity that died in the Holocaust - something like what, 40%?



Yeah let's try to pull down that clearly documented number and blame Israel for something.

Israel for formed as tiny strip of land that the British controlled after the break up of the Ottoman Empire in 1918.

The Arab states were carved out, and they got 99% of the land with all the oil. Jews had lived in the Sinai peninsula and attracted a large Arab immigration by paying 5-10 times the going wages of the region.

Israel was attacked by surrounding Arab states the day they declared statehood in 1948. And again in 1967, and again in 1973. In 1948, after the first war, 850.000 Jews were forced to leave Muslin countries they'd lived in for centuries. They didn't whine and decide to sit in squalid internment camps for 60 years.

The Muslims in the Israeli territory who left after the 1948 were offered the opportunity to return peacefully or even form a state out of the Egyptian held Gaza and Jordanian controlled West Bank. They refused.

There never was a country called Palestine by the way. But there is a modern Palestinian state - it's called Jordan.

The self-declared stateless Palestinians are asking for a second state from territories Egypt and Jordan forfeited in their attempts to destroy Israel in the later two wars.

The Palestinian leadership has found there is more money to be made, billions form the West, in remaining at a perpetual state of war with Israel.

Jew hater round the world love to find reason to blame Israel for everything.
Kill half of the Jews in the world and people will still say that wasn't good enough.


Mike


reply posted on 14-5-2009 @ 12:38 AM by Dr Conspire
Originally posted by OhZone
Not too long ago there was no such thing as calling someone "racist".
I have understood the use of this term today as making a false statement about someone of another race.
However, the way it works is that anyone making any statement about another race is now called a "racist".
Somewhere along the line reason has been lost. It has become taboo to say anything about any race, even your own.


How did they get where they were is obvious. The reasons also should be obvious. Let a war happen on US soil and see how many people are transported to work camps and prison camps.

So you all have a belief that Hitler just upped and began to harrass the Jews? Certainly you must be aware that these people have been expelled from every country they have ever lived, starting with 1500 years or so BC when they were expelled from Egypt. Why do you suppose that is?
What exactly is it about them that causes them to get expelled?
YOu have to know that it is not their religion as they are very to themselves about it. THey do not come knocking on your door tyring to convert you.

Maybe you are unaware of this:

jews declare war on germany
"Long before the Hitler government began restricting the rights of the German Jews, the leaders of the worldwide Jewish community formally declared war on the "New Germany" at a time when the U.S. government and even the Jewish leaders in Germany were urging caution in dealing with the new Hitler regime.

The war by the international Jewish leadership on Germany not only sparked definite reprisals by the German government but also set the stage for a little-known economic and political alliance between the Hitler government and the leaders of the Zionist movement who hoped that the tension between the Germans and the Jews would lead to massive emigration to Palestine. In short, the result was a tactical alliance between the Nazis and the founders of the modern-day state of Israel - a fact that many today would prefer be forgotten."

The article continues with more interesting info.
A search of "jews declare war on Germay" will bring you more articles. I haven't looked at them so cannot say if they have any more info.

Holocaust=US dollars to support Israel.
Also are you aware that German citizens have been paying "reparations"
to Israel and it seems that it is to go on forever.
The article on this site is dated 2009.

reparations continue 55 years after the fact
When is enough enough?

Here is the history or the reparations:
reparations

"The passions and propaganda of wartime normally diminish with the passage of time. A striking exception is the Holocaust campaign, which seems to grow more pervasive and intense as the years go by. Certainly the most lucrative expression of this seemingly endless campaign has been West Germangs massive and historically unparalleled reparations payoff to Israel and world Jewry for the alleged collective sins of the German people during the Hitler era. Since 1953, West Germany has paid out more than $35 billion in reparations to the Zionist state and to millions of individual "victims of National Socialism."

How did this remarkable program get started? How lucrative has it been? What does it suggest about the "six million" figure? And what are its social and political implications?"

Past my bed time.
I'll check with you tomorrow.

[edit on 8-1-2009 by OhZone]


Just what the world needs another doubter.


reply posted on 14-5-2009 @ 12:41 AM by Dr Conspire
Originally posted by mmiichael
Originally posted by Donnie Darko


I have no doubt that at least 4-5 million Jews died in the Holocaust. The upsetting thing, I guess, is that the Israeli government uses this fact to cover their own acts against the Palestinians, and generally speaking, other groups that suffered in the Holocaust do not do the same.

However, the Jews are unique in terms of the percentage of the ethnicity that died in the Holocaust - something like what, 40%?



Yeah let's try to pull down that clearly documented number and blame Israel for something.

Israel for formed as tiny strip of land that the British controlled after the break up of the Ottoman Empire in 1918.

The Arab states were carved out, and they got 99% of the land with all the oil. Jews had lived in the Sinai peninsula and attracted a large Arab immigration by paying 5-10 times the going wages of the region.

Israel was attacked by surrounding Arab states the day they declared statehood in 1948. And again in 1967, and again in 1973. In 1948, after the first war, 850.000 Jews were forced to leave Muslin countries they'd lived in for centuries. They didn't whine and decide to sit in squalid internment camps for 60 years.

The Muslims in the Israeli territory who left after the 1948 were offered the opportunity to return peacefully or even form a state out of the Egyptian held Gaza and Jordanian controlled West Bank. They refused.

There never was a country called Palestine by the way. But there is a modern Palestinian state - it's called Jordan.

The self-declared stateless Palestinians are asking for a second state from territories Egypt and Jordan forfeited in their attempts to destroy Israel in the later two wars.

The Palestinian leadership has found there is more money to be made, billions form the West, in remaining at a perpetual state of war with Israel.

Jew hater round the world love to find reason to blame Israel for everything.
Kill half of the Jews in the world and people will still say that wasn't good enough.


Mike



Thank you for the respect shown to me a gentile by telling the FACTS...I thank you and understand much more than I did.


reply posted on 14-5-2009 @ 02:10 AM by Dr Conspire
Originally posted by mmiichael
Originally posted by Dr Conspire
This is my understanding of WW2.

Over sixty million non combatants died, six million were Jewish people the vast majority being under occupation by German Forces in Eastern Europe?


The German government was at war, as were Russia, and willingly or not, countries like Austria, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc.

Mass civilian deaths are the most tragic byproduct of war.

There was no Jewish government, any allied governments, military, centralized base of operations, command, supply lines, communications, transportation, tanks, weapons.

There's a difference between war waged against other countries as opposed to with chosen segment of the population.

The latter is genocide.


Mike


[edit on 14-5-2009 by mmiichael]


So the tens of millions of Christ Followers were sort of just in the wrong place at tehe wrong time?

Hitler really respected Christ and refused to murder Christians, only Jews?

Stalin refused to murder forty million humans because they were Christ Followers?

Hitler refused to murder nearly two million slavs and Gypsies because they were slavs and gypsies?

Hitler refused to kill almost three million Russian prisoners of war because they were Russian pows?

Hitler refused to blitz britain because they were British?

War demons wage war on all they see as opposing them, Christ Followers, Muslims, Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, lesbians, dwarfs, seventh day advendists, power, power, power,power,power,power,power,power get the drift friends?

Think and see.


reply posted on 14-5-2009 @ 02:59 AM by mmiichael
Originally posted by Salt of the Earth

Anybody ever check out the art of David Dees? Much of it is about Israel and Zionism and the Holocaust. Give a look-see.



[img]http://www.rense.com...[/img]http://www.rense.com/1.mpicons/dees1.htm



Yes, Jeff Rense. A fantastic source for information on Reptilian world domination, NWO planned population control, the No Plane Theory, and loads and loads of "Mossad was behind it" stories.

What comes out of Jeff Rense has it's credibility problems.

Rense has identified his less than concerned with truth niche audience.

Lots of stories about Israel that seem to lack any substantiated facts to back them up.

Maybe Jeff is a little ... how does one say it .... prejudiced?

But he has his following.

Mike



[edit on 14-5-2009 by mmiichael]


reply posted on 14-5-2009 @ 03:13 AM by Salt of the Earth
Originally posted by mmiichael
Originally posted by Salt of the Earth

Anybody ever check out the art of David Dees? Much of it is about Israel and Zionism and the Holocaust. Give a look-see.



[img]http://www.rense.com...[/img]http://www.rense.com/1.mpicons/dees1.htm



Yes, Jeff Rense. A fantastic source for information on Reptilian world domination, NWO planned population control, the No Plane Theory, and loads and loads of "Mossad was behind it" stories.

What comes out of Jeff Rense has it's credibility problems.

He makes Alex Jones almost look like a credible journalist in comparison.

Lots of disinformation on a lot of subjects out there.

Let the buyer beware.


Mike



The link is to David Dees' art, which happens to be posted on Rense.com, among other places (like Alex Jones sites), but Rense.com is as good a place as any and he's got all the latest ones and the biggest collection all in one place.

Texe Marrs also exposes the lies of Zionism, as do many others on the Internet. Sure beats listening to the MSM and the political lies of Jews like Marx and Lenin.

It was Lenin (a Jew) who stuck the figure of 4.5 million Jews exterminated in Auschwitz. Recently the curator has taken down the plaque commemorating all these phony deaths, and set the record straight. 450,000 total deaths there, and most of them were not even Jews. Almost everything we've been told about the Jewish holocaust is a complete lie, a hoax.

Just like the so-called "Star of David" is really the Seal of Solomon, the most occult and evil symbol of Satanism and witchcraft there is.

And there is also much to be learned about the Jewish religion, which is not "almost Christian" -- just lacking the New Testament. Oh no. The real "holy books" of Judaism are the Talmud and the Babylonian Cabala, which are centered around Satanic occultism and hatred of Jesus and Christianity and racism (ie Jewish supremacy) and the Fourth Reich.

Who's pulling down the world economy and getting us set up for the antichrist? The Jewish offshore banksters and their agents. The phony messiah and phony alien invasion hoax is going to be foisted on mankind, and this evil man will rule the world from Jerusalem, and the Talmudic/Cabalistic dream will come to pass to hunt down Christians, all spiritual people who don't love evil, and skulls and torture and perversion and abortion and every kind of wickedness.

Our Constitution expressly forbids the state to establish a religion, and yet the American citizens are forced to pay for a nation stolen from the Palestinins to house people of a certain Satanic religion that is based almost completely around hatred of Jesus Christ. The Talmud and Babylonian Cabala are enshrined and swimming in the blood of the innocent, and the American taxpayers must pay tribute each year in the billions to this, in addition to all the high tech military we give Israel to terrorize the world with. Yet here in America we cannot erect a cardboard cresche at Christmastime or even use the world "Christmas" and/or "Easter" in the so-called "public schools." If we are going to subsidize a religion, how about picking Christianity, give us our own nation, send us billions of dollars each year. That would be better than picking a religion of Judaism whose Talmud uses the word for Jesus that means "may his name be forever blotted out," and who claims Jesus was a scoundrel, that He is burning in Hell in firey excrement, and that Mary was a whore, and that nonJews, goyim, are less than human and it's okay to cheat us and lie to us and to pull the ladder away if we fall into a crevice and let us die. The Cabala is just Satanic occultism, the basis for the wicked secret societies that are destroying the whole world and turning the hearts of men to a wicked antichrist phony messiah who will rule the entire world from Jerusalem.

Definitely check out David Dees' artwork. Expose Zionism for the evil thing it is.
[img]http://www.rense.com...[/img]

[edit on 14-5-2009 by Salt of the Earth]

[edit on 14-5-2009 by Salt of the Earth]


reply posted on 14-5-2009 @ 03:56 AM by Dr Conspire
Originally posted by mmiichael
Originally posted by Dr Conspire

[edit on 14-5-2009 by mmiichael]


So the tens of millions of Christ Followers were sort of just in the wrong place at tehe wrong time?

Hitler really respected Christ and refused to murder Christians, only Jews?

Stalin refused to murder forty million humans because they were Christ Followers?

Hitler refused to murder nearly two million slavs and Gypsies because they were slavs and gypsies?

Hitler refused to kill almost three million Russian prisoners of war because they were Russian pows?

Hitler refused to blitz britain because they were British?

War demons wage war on all they see as opposing them, Christ Followers, Muslims, Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, lesbians, dwarfs, seventh day advendists, power, power, power,power,power,power,power,power get the drift friends?

Think and see.




If you selectively employ different contexts, manipulate data, push you agenda with seemingly reasonable arguments, you can forward an argument for practically anything.

And if it has appeal to a segment who find that viewpoint coincides with something they want to hear, some people will accept it as valid.

Hitler found that to be true. So why should it be different today?

There is such a thing as the use of reason, just as there is the abuse of reason.

Some use the latter to enhance their self-esteem.

Control is an issue for many.

Power typed 8 times.

Think and see.


Mike



[edit on 14-5-2009 by mmiichael]


Very good points and observations, but Iam sure you will recognise the stated , applies to your argument precisely?

Power was typed several times (you counted?) to emphasise the word and reality of power.

Hitler murdered those he perceived as a threat.

Hitler was a person who had no empathy outside his own experience, like most criminals and indeed most human beings.

But everyone knows by instinct a threat and plots a response.


No one with any human feeling could condone the Final solution, just as no one can condone the Suffering of Palestine in 2009 but hey many will tell you otherwise on both fronts.

We all feel joy and pain, that is enough to know...including animals.

Be kind to all including animals, our beautiful friends.


reply posted on 14-5-2009 @ 05:13 AM by Dr Conspire
Originally posted by Laz322
Okay, okay, enough already!

I'm trying to prove a point...

(1) Propaganda is very, very powerful, especially when 99% of the public doesn't think about it or understand it.

(2) Propaganda always produces a result.

(3) The world is much different then most of us imagine it to be and it is ruled by very different people then we are led to believe.

(4) Wars are founded by bankers...Those bankers fun BOTH SIDES of the conflict...Think about that for a little while, it is more profound then it sounds.

(5) These same people own the airwaves, the politicians, Hollywood, the Military Industrial complex, Big Pharma, The Federal Reserve, The Bank of England, etc.

(6) No matter how intelligent you may think you are, your thoughts and your opinions are only as good as the information you're receiving. If you get your information from the Mainstream media, Hollywood, and like sources you're probably pretty far from anything remotely resembling the truth.

(7) No, I don't have all the answers and I don't think I know it all, I do know that most people except what is hand fed to them from supposed institutions of "authority."




You are a dying out thread of humanity, most humans dont care and are too lazy.

Most old timers think like you,(no disrespect intended if you are seventeen ect)

But most new people on the scene believe in technology 100% and they are drip fed crap that a retarded shell shock victim of the great war would laugh hysterically at.
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