I think you might see a lot of anonymous postings on this thread.

There are untold stories but the fact is that a lot of jews were killed during this time and that is why so much offence is taken with a comment like this.

A simple no comment would have done to be honest and you know that is not offensive if you get my point.

Osirus, drop the race card. Its worn out and meaningless. How exactly does it apply to anything I have said?
A fact is a fact. Do the research. That is if your programming will allow it. Oh yes, you said You closed your ears.
You see that is part of your problem. You only want to see/hear what you already believe. Closed ears=closed mind.

Blup, forget the gas chambers. They would be very expensive and inefficient. The Germans are smarter than that.
How do you know that these were for killing people? How do you know that they were not built after the war for the purpose of building the propaganda? Big tourist dollars.

Oh also on those piles of bodies. Do you have any idea of how long these people had been dead? Who took the pictures?

Make a mental movie putting yourself into the area during the war. Look at it from both sides. One day be a prisoner in the camp, doesn't matter if you are a jew or a pole or a russian or what; you are a prisoner and you are working in their war plant.
Next day be a German officer high up enough that you have a good view of what is going in in the war effort and understand the workings of events all the way down to those prisoners working in your factories there.

If you are really good at this you may come up with some enlightenment.

Originally posted by OhZone
All of you pro-holocaust believers are so hung up on all the death info that you are as blind-sided at any religious believer.

What an incredible lack of brainpower you must have.
All emotion, no thinking.
Just going on reacting like Pavlov's dogs.

And we wonder how the world got into such a mess.

The only one that seems to be getting emotional and lashing out is you. The only one being racist is you. The only ones attacking the intelligence of others is you. You can claim ignorance all you want, but why would all the holocaust survivors just make it up. Oh that's right, can't trust them Jews can we?

Yes the allies did bomb their supply lines etc, but tell all of the people that saw their entire families getting lead to the "showers" that it never happened.

I don't believe everything I read in books, but I have personally interviewed US servicemen that served in WWII, as well as holocaust survivors, and believe me the holocaust was very real. Or did all those tricky Jews in Eastern Europe get together for a meeting in order to fabricate the holocaust. Get real. If any of what you said held any water there would be people coming out admitting that it was a hoax by now.

Originally posted by OhZone
So I'm horrible because I don't believe that 6 million jews died.
Lots of people died from assorted causes.
Some were executed.
Some died from disease brought on by lack of sanitation and lack of food since the Allies bombed the transport lines.
Strange you all cannot understand just how the situation there became so bad that people died simply as a result of the lack of supplies.

Oy vey!

I'll stick to addressing the first part of your post because if I address the rest of it I'll end up calling you a schmuck and detail your cognitive shortcomings.

Why would any Jews die from a lack of sanitation or supplies? Did they always live in camps? Did they congregate hundreds if not thousands of miles from their original homes by choice? Did they cross borders of their own volition? Why would a doctor, or a shop owner or a teacher leave the comfort of their home and reside in such heinous conditions. I'll tell you why my intellectually impaired fellow ATS member, because they were forced to under duress of arms; by jack booted thugs that had been brainwashed into perpetrating one of the most inexcusable acts perpetrated in modern history. The only thing more disgusting about the holocaust itself is when some anti-Semitic bigot reaches out from the safety of his mother's basement and denies the obvious instead of denying ignorance. I'm sure there's a video game calling you right now, I suggest immersion into you pathetic fantasy world lest the blight of knowledge and understanding infect the void that is your cranium.

Well, at least I didn't call you a schmuck.

Originally posted by OhZone
So I'm horrible because I don't believe that 6 million jews died.
.

No if it was simply a difference of opinion it wouldn't be horrible at all. It is the simple fact that you started your post with a racist statement. That's it in a nutshell, that's my problem with your stance. Your opinion is obviously skewed.

Originally posted by OhZone

All of you pro-holocaust believers are so hung up on all the death info that you are as blind-sided at any religious believer.

What an incredible lack of brainpower you must have.
All emotion, no thinking.
Just going on reacting like Pavlov's dogs.

And we wonder how the world got into such a mess.

We don't wonder anymore - people like you.

A REMINDER-

There will be no more posting to the poster. Ad Hominems Stop Now.

Remain on topic and discuss the facts surrounding the topic, "the Holocaust did NOT happen".

There will be no further warning and subsequent posts in violation will be actioned.

Thank you.

Comment about my own experience in my family saved for another time, as warning post occurred as I was typing mine.

[edit on 1/8/2009 by ravenshadow13]

Only if Forum Moderator says it's okay. I don't want to be off topic or get the post deleted or anything... if FM says no you can PM me and we can talk about it. I would start a thread but I would need support/I wouldn't want it to get banned.

I mean... it's not... it's not like a conspiracy theory or a hypothesis... it's the story of my grandma's life so... I don't really know if it would get deleted or anything.

PART I
First I'd really like to thank a handful of members for their support, even in the brief amount of time I went downstairs to drill my dad for the details- dates and numbers I always seem to forget.

This is my family's story. Of course Raven is not my real name. I'm 18 years old. I try not to talk about these things because, in all honesty, they are depressing. I also assumed people already knew about this and that there was no point repeating it. I was raised Jewish, and I suppose I am culturally like my mom, but I don't believe or follow Judaism. My dad was raised traditional, almost orthodox. My mom is more culturally Jewish- she is an atheist and believes in ETs (but no encounters, just a hypothetical thing). The grandmother I will be speaking of is my dad's mother. When I was little, my dad's dad died, and I never really got along with that side of the family to begin with- their accents were thick and strong and half the time I didn't understand what they were saying to me. They were (unlike many people think about Jews) not very wealthy. My grandpa was not keen on investing in much of anything, and my grandma listened to what he said.

I don't know when I first learned about the Holocaust. I think it happened gradually from the time I was born by overhearing conversations. I always wondered why my dad's family was so much smaller than my mom's. But there was no point in time when I "learned of" the Holocaust. When I got older, I traveled and heard my grandma speak. She spoke in public schools in many towns in my area, colleges, museums, and most recently she spoke at a government building regarding her experience and also about the current conflict in Darfur.

I'd like to note that ATS is the first place in my life that I have encountered people who don't believe in the Holocaust as I learned it.

This is the story that I was told by my father and grandmother about what happened in her life. This is the story that thousands of people have heard in schools and meetings all over the country, it is on record in the Holocaust museum, and in numerous other Holocaust archives. So I will tell it here and I don't want to ever explain again on this website or have to defend myself. That's why I rely on a lot of support from other members because honestly, I'm just a kid, I don't need to argue about things that are close to my heard. And after I am said and done, if you think I'm lying, then I think it shows poor character.

My grandmother was born in a small town called Jasina in an area that is now the Czech Republic. It is part of sub-Carpathian Lithuania, near Poland. My grandma's father (my great grandfather) owned a farm and the general store in town. My grandma had lots of animals when she was little- horses, dogs, cats (I think one's name was Mitsy). She walked to school every day and learned to speak Czech and Polish, as well as some English there. She had a mother (who I was named after), father, two sisters, and three brothers. There were gypsies in her town and her family always gave them food to eat. They were fairly wealthy for their town but didn't have much, and new shoes were a big deal back then.

When my grandma was 20, things started to change. Jasina became a ghetto and they couldn't really go anywhere, but things weren't too bad yet. In April 1944, when my grandma was about 20 and a half, Jasina was evacuated and she was separated from most of her family. She was sent to Auchwitz first, and as they were marching to the cattle cars, she was separated from her father who died in the camps. At this point in the story when my grandma tells it she always cries and I could try to put in the same emotion that she does regarding what he said to her but I just can't.

At Auchwitz she was separated from her mother and sisters. She tells the story of how they made two lines and one line led to a room where they shave your head and take your clothes, and the other led right to the gas showers. In Auchwitz they gave very little food, and here she saw Josef Mengele, who she said was very handsome but also very cruel. One day in line-up she smelled something horrible and asked somebody near her what the smell was. She was told it was the smell of her parents burning.

My grandma was in the famous death march out of Auchwitz. She was taken to a work camp 35 miles away where they put her on cattle cars. The trip on the cars was long, hot, and reeked of the diseased and dead people in the cars with her. People just went to the bathrooms everywhere, there was no food, it was totally dark.

From the cattle cars, she went to two different work camps- Gelsenkirchen and Essen. I think here she was still with her niece, who was about her age. They somehow managed to survive. Many older women and mothers who had been separated from their children gave my grandma some crumbs of bread. They had old bread, weak soup, and some other beverage, but only about half a bowl every two days.

From the work camps she went to Bergen-Belsen. While working either here or at the work camps she had broken her arm, which typically meant she would be killed as she was useless for the Nazis. However, one woman Nazi was kind to her and kept her as a translator because my grandma knew 6 languages at that point (7 now, she speaks English). They casted her arm but lice got underneath and ate at her flesh. She said the itching was horrible and she got infected.

Luckily, Bergen-Belsen was liberated in April 1945. She went to Sweden and stayed there for awhile and learned English. Then she came to America and met my grandpa and settled in New York. She crocheted and designed knitting and crocheting designs for magazines.
To be continued...

PART II

My grandma has dentures because of her poor nutrition in the camps. She has no tattoo number- this is because near the end of the war the Nazis stopped tattooing because they did not want a record of the number of people that they killed. Also the people, especially Jews, that were sent right to death did not get tattooed. If you don't believe that, I can get you a source.

My grandma's two sisters, mother, father, and nephew died. Her brothers survived but one served as slave labor for a long time. Her niece survived and lives in Israel today.

My grandma stayed in Sweden but there were many countries both before and after the war, including the USA at certain points in time, who would not immigrate Jews or survivors. This explains my pro-Israel stance for those of you that I have been nagging in the forums recently. And why the negativity around the word 'Zionist' makes me throw up in my mouth a tad.

I'd like to close with a conversation I had with my dad last year. We were coming home from grandma's apartment and I asked him about death and his pro-religious standpoint. I asked him if he wanted to be cremated, and told him how much space coffins take up in the ground and how I don't want to rot, etc. He said "I don't want to be cremated." I laughed and asked why, told him it was stupid.

He said "because my family members died that way."

That's pretty much all I have to say... questions are welcome, but I may have to ask my dad for the answers. I.. uh... really really really dislike you non-believers because, honestly, why would we make this up? We're not even getting sympathy for it, no money, no nothing...

The above is the truth. Deny ignorance.

--I'd also like to add that if this post changed just one person's mind out there, then my life is a lot more meaningful.


[edit on 1/8/2009 by ravenshadow13]

Thank you, Zindo. I really appreciate your commentary and support. You're right- the evidence and truth is there for people who are willing to look for it.

I don't know if these people think the Holocaust Museum in DC is a scam or what, but I know I cried when I went there, especially when I walked into the cattle car that they restored.