Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic
Maybe people are just inherently violent and video games are an extension and outlet of that violence. The games are the reflection of human psychology, not the cause of it.

I quite liked your post.

I think humans are by nature competitive, not necessarily violent. Every game that has both servers that offer consensual pvp vs pvp all the time (which can also be considered consensual pvp) has a preponderance of consensual pvp players. Sure there are some that love the ability to attack and kill helpless lower level characters but they are a vocal minority, much like in real life. I personally love to pvp, but only if the other person wants to as well. I derive absolutely no pleasure from "greifing" other players, and, much like in real life, will intervene on the behalf of someone getting bullied if I can. (no matter what team or side he/she is on)

I think what games offer that real life doesnt is a fairly even playing field. In a game, you know that you have the possibility of rising to the level of your own skill and ability and "the system" isnt set up to keep some at the bottom while rewarding others undeservedly. Sure, some high level toon might kick your butt today, but you know if you grind away, you will someday be his/her level and you will have the chance for a fair fight. Life isnt like that. The American dream isnt really real. And, deep down, many of us know it if only subconsciously. Your gender, your body type, your looks, your height, your ability to pay for college, your parents, your geographical region these things in the real world often dictate how far you can move up the ladder every bit as much as hard work and intelligence and good character does in real life. In the game? It is all you at your core. You willingness to work and grind away and practice and save and collect gear can take you anywhere you want to go.

So, we look for the American dream in games. The chance to work hard and if not come out on top at least achieve a respectable level. I think games are not detrimental to society. I think society as we know it has huge failings in its ability to serve human beings needs and games were designed to meet those needs. It would be better if society was altered to do so, rather than us spending time in a virtual world, but...until then, I will spend at least some of my time in the much more just virtual world.

Just my two cents.

The funny thing is, there ARE non-violent games that many people find enjoyable, it's just that you, personally don't. I've played video games all my life. I've chosen not to play violent games. I have four kids, none of them play violent games. The most violent game we have in the house is Zelda. My boys like racing games, we buy the "need for Speed series. We've got every one of them. To level up, you win a race, you hurt no one. We play tons of Guitar Hero. The most fun, honestly? Big Brain Academy on the Wii! The kids compete against each other. My husband and I battle for hours. Plenty of good solid fun and not an ounce of violence. You choose to find and play the violent games, and the manufacturers feed into that, but they also feed those of us who don't choose those.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick

Originally posted by dantrav
Did blood spill when you played cowboys and Indians? Did you ever actually kill one of your friends in the process? Even though they may have played dead in your mind, did you see your friend disappear after fake shooting them? Finally did any of you play the random prostitute or innocent bystander?

Real blood? No. But we did fill up our water guns with water we'd dyed with food coloring. The food coloring all over our clothes never sat well with our parents but we did like to make each other look bloody. We used to scatter fake blood around our "ghost town" or our "back alley" or "saloon" or "ship" that we made with corn syrup and food coloring.

We did make people play innocent bystanders, it was kind of like being picked last for dodge ball. And yeah, when we were playing "mafia" some people would be the token "drug addicts".

Fortunately i didn't play anything like that because when i was outside running around with my friends i didn't know what a "token drug addict" was. I played soldiers, or cowboys and Indians but nothing that ever included that.

I wonder, did our parents have games that included "token drug addicts" when they ran around outside as kids?

Originally posted by dantrav
Fortunately i didn't play anything like that because when i was outside running around with my friends i didn't know what a "token drug addict" was. I played soldiers, or cowboys and Indians but nothing that ever included that.

I wonder, did our parents have games that included "token drug addicts" when they ran around outside as kids?

See, now I think you're cherrypicking at my whole statement. You're focusing on the "token drug addict" comment and leaving behind all the fake blood I said we used to use and the innocent bystanders you seemed so interested in earlier.

I am an avid xbxox and pc gamer, online and offline.

Yes I have some non-violent games, but the violent ones are by far my favourites, I kill rather indescriminantly within them.

Yet in realf life I am entirely against killing, I am disgusted at Americas death sentence...that is how much I am against murder of any sort. So if it has affected me at all, it was by showing me, killing is for games, not for the real world.

If you can tell the difference between reality and a game, I don't see what he problem is.... and if you can't... well, then maybe you shouldn't be playing video games.

i just want to make it clear i am not particularly worried, and i ofcourse understand that video games do not affect peoples decisions in reality often.

My point was how it affects your thought processes, and although i am aware of many non violent games, the ratio of violent to non seems to be very high.

so when you shoot someone in a game? you think that doesnt project negative energy? think again, no matter how slight and despite knowing that it is not killing a living soul, try to realise that all actions and so on produce energy, and killing stabbing stealing even in a game is not producing a positive output.

I was really focusing on what is available, and how even though like on wow the players and mobs reincarnate, and there is no lasting effect, the fact remains that to kill equals success in the game.

try and think of a game, where to help an old lady across the street or to plant a tree gives you progression. ?

i still play these games, i just think that the deep meanings like kill=good, are well shrowded behind playful graphics and epic story lines.

but to realise you have devoted hundreds of hours to something with the basic premise of that, can be quite alarming.

I mentioned i am not violent, but i am when i play gta. so where is the line drawn, if i can be so easily coaxed in a game world to rob and shoot, cos i konw "i" wont be locked up or killed, well how different is that from the real world, as this life is just a fully immersive game as it is. perhaps some of you dont realise.

I feel that if i can break my morals so easily for a game then really the only thing that holds me from breaking them in real life is fear of persecution. cos stick a man in the army, and boom he will kill "rag heads" as i have heard an aquaintance in the army. and he will happily kill all day, because it will be a medal, not a prison sentence that will meet his actions.

strange isnt it?

think a little deeper, and those of you saying, anyone who supports this is weak minded,. well being so strong minded, perhaps entertain the suggestions for a while as opposed to attacking them. surely that means your the one with the weak mind?

only the weak attack.

Originally posted by StevenDye
I am an avid xbxox and pc gamer, online and offline.

Yes I have some non-violent games, but the violent ones are by far my favourites, I kill rather indescriminantly within them.

Yet in realf life I am entirely against killing, I am disgusted at Americas death sentence...that is how much I am against murder of any sort. So if it has affected me at all, it was by showing me, killing is for games, not for the real world.

but if you so happily and with enjoyment, kill indiscriminately in a game, yet are adamently against it that is a direct contradiction. how do you know that on one level there is a micro dimensional consciousness generated within the game sufferening ,when you kill it.? you dont do you?

what is consciousness. ? your words are hypocritical. to the ptb, the war in iraq is a game to them, life is a game. just cos a few plebs suffer, why should that be a deterrent?

when you gank someone in wow, and corpse camp, the kid on the other end of the line will go thru some emotional sufferening, at least some frustration and getting v pissed off if you repeatedly kill him. well. that is you or someone causing someone else suffereing via an online game.

well if you look at the suffering the iraq war caused, its a lot greater, but point is online games played on pcs, can cause emotional distress etc, just to a smaller degree. and i guarantee you some ppl get pleasure from pissing off other players, from emotionally harming them. may sound a bit over the top. but the thought patterns are there, pleasure from pissing someone off. your pleasure from their pain. its not inherent in games, but the same as a school bully.

i dont know. im gonna go shoot some ppl in gta iv. and then kill some cops. obvioulsy id never do that in real life. but when i do it. i WILL be producing some negative energy no matter how slight. thats what i think is the problem. millions of people playing these killing games just adds to the global hate and negative energy on this earth.

just look at youtube, how many haters and nasty comments from people are on there. its ridicullous.

laters

Oh gimme a break. IT's a game for crying out loud. What are we meant to do in games? twiddle our thumbs? Go play mahjong, chess, or even a game called TRAINz - train simulator, or go get microsoft flight simulator.? how about sim city? Have you heard of PORTAL? a first person game than requires no killing. just thinking.

why would anyone in their right mind create a game thats going to be boring when most players find games more interacting when multiplaying, playing with each other, engaging each other.

Try finding a good high scoring game played by millions where they dont have to blow things up, kill other players, and that this game would be played for hours apon hours upon hours. gimme a break!!!

I hate you please like this. if you dont want to play those sort of games then dont. there are non-violent non-blowing things up games that can appeal to you. it just doesn't appeal to the masses. The masses have more fun doing the other because those games are more involved and thier designs are much fun.

I believe that one of the armed forces did a study to find out about how the effects of gaming affected soldier's ability to operate.

If my memory serves me correctly, the branch that did the study said that the only difference they found between those soldiers who did and didn't play "violent" video games was that the ones who DID play games tended to shoot a target that popped up a lot quicker than those who didn't. (In other words, the gamers realized that in a "shoot or be shot" environment, they realized they'd be shot if they didn't shoot first. Just like in the games.)

I also think that the people who did the study said that it didn't make them more or less likely to kill, just that when they recognized that a target was a threat, they were quicker to shoot first.

But, I could be wrong about that.

Originally posted by predisposed
but if you so happily and with enjoyment, kill indiscriminately in a game, yet are adamently against it that is a direct contradiction. how do you know that on one level there is a micro dimensional consciousness generated within the game sufferening ,when you kill it.? you dont do you?

Do you truly believe that yourself?
I suggest you should néver eat anything again in your whole life then.
I mean, if even computer pixels can feel pain, think of the unabated suffering you spread throughout the cabbages and salads of this world! OMG! SAVE THE CARROT! :p

You should also ban games like Racing games or Sports games.. I mean, have you ever seen what happens to a pixel.. err.. person who was in a carcrash at 290 KmH ? Or seen a sportsman after being tackled by half a team of Rugby players?

I have been gaming for over half the time I have been on this planet, and just fyi, I oppose any realworld violence, while still enjoying to play games like the Battlefield series or the GTA series.

This is a major distinction, I know it might get a bit hard for someone who truly believes pixels can suffer: On one hand, you have REALITY, where REAL people are hurt, on the other hand you have MAKEBELIEVE, where FANTASY characters get wasted.

what is consciousness. ? your words are hypocritical. to the ptb, the war in iraq is a game to them, life is a game. just cos a few plebs suffer, why should that be a deterrent?

That's why they are the PRB and we are not.. our minds couldn't ever sink to those levels of depravity imho.. Why should their actions be a deterrent to us, poor slobs, trying to find an occupation that gets our minds of the real life troubles one faces, while not in any way risking to hurt a fellow human being ?

when you gank someone in wow, and corpse camp, the kid on the other end of the line will go thru some emotional sufferening, at least some frustration and getting v pissed off if you repeatedly kill him. well. that is you or someone causing someone else suffereing via an online game.

I play WoW, and I can assure you that if anybody gets killed by a player from the opposing faction, that player CHOSE to be vulnerable.
You have PvE and roleplay servers where people only can become targettable by the other faction if they either helped a player that was PvP enabled (like healing or buffing a flagged char), If they attacked a PvP player themselves, or if they type /pvp.

Then you have PvP servers where ganking can be a problem, but when you create a character on those servers there is a popup which clearly states that you WILL be vulnerable to this, and if you don't like this, you will be asked to create a char on a PvE or RP server.

If they can't take losing then that is an inherent character flaw, NOT an argument to discuss the 'hurt'.

(I only play on RP/PvP just to avoid gankers and other predators of that nature, but I still enjoy a battleground.. keeps one on his/her toes..)

well if you look at the suffering the iraq war caused, its a lot greater, but point is online games played on pcs, can cause emotional distress etc, just to a smaller degree. and i guarantee you some ppl get pleasure from pissing off other players, from emotionally harming them. may sound a bit over the top. but the thought patterns are there, pleasure from pissing someone off. your pleasure from their pain. its not inherent in games, but the same as a school bully.

Again, that inability to deal with not being the best is a personal issue, NOT a flaw of the game. Think of any online game like you think of ATS.
Some cool people, some lowlifes, a whole lot of mediocre people etc., all doing their thing the way they feel is 'fun'.
It is a medium through which people express themselves.

People get P'd off at each other all the time in the forum, why not create a new thread about the Evils of a public forum ? Thoughtpolice FTW neh ?

i dont know. im gonna go shoot some ppl in gta iv. and then kill some cops. obvioulsy id never do that in real life. but when i do it. i WILL be producing some negative energy no matter how slight. thats what i think is the problem. millions of people playing these killing games just adds to the global hate and negative energy on this earth.

Ahh.. sure, the problem is us, peacefull gamers, and not the real world bad-Karma factorys, the politicians, bankers, soldiers and preachers.. dude, I can assure you that my ingame actions have never hurt anybody, in fact, they might have allowed me to vent just enough steam so I don't become violent in the real world against a slight that is realtime, not scripted..

just look at youtube, how many haters and nasty comments from people are on there. its ridicullous.

laters

and this is relevant how ?

No offense dude, but there is such a thing as 'taking things to far' , and I truly believe your 'pixels can cry, too' argument squarely lands in this segment.. it was good for a laugh offcourse..

Killing and gore sells. That's why there are so many games focused on killing and stuff.
IMO its in our nature to best / beat other people. Killing is a way of doing that. Also because killing, stealing and other kind of stuff is illegal/morally wrong people see video games as way of escaping the reality, where we cant kill without consequences, to a fantasy world where we can kill, rape, torture without any serious consequence.

Originally posted by predisposed

try and think of a game, where to help an old lady across the street or to plant a tree gives you progression. ?

Well In simcity 4 you have to plant lots of trees to improve your city, nj.

In Black and White 2 if you are playing as good, you have to plant plants to improve you people's happiness.

In Spore, if you are playing as good, you have to restore you're planets ecosystems.

The games are out there... anyway with next generation sandbox games, they will only get more realistic and more dangerous.. virtual reality will be a reality soon enough. So if you think the violent video games are bad now, just give it 5-10 more years.

Originally posted by predisposed

I mentioned i am not violent, but i am when i play gta. so where is the line drawn, if i can be so easily coaxed in a game world to rob and shoot, cos i konw "i" wont be locked up or killed, well how different is that from the real world, as this life is just a fully immersive game as it is. perhaps some of you dont realise.

But, think of it this way, you chose to buy and play a game called "Grand theft Auto." I have never purchased or played that game. (Not that I am saying I am better, mind you) There are lots of games that I have never had even the slightest desire to purchase or play at all. I have been playing video games for more years than I care to admit, and there is a decided tendency for me to purchase and play certain types of games, and within those games to play certain kinds of roles.

Originally posted by predisposed

I feel that if i can break my morals so easily for a game then really the only thing that holds me from breaking them in real life is fear of persecution. cos stick a man in the army, and boom he will kill "rag heads" as i have heard an aquaintance in the army. and he will happily kill all day, because it will be a medal, not a prison sentence that will meet his actions.

strange isnt it?

Maybe that is a benefit of gaming. That what you enjoy and choose to do in a game can show you things about yourself before you act them out in the game of life. Maybe instead of blaming the game for conditioning you, you should consider if the game is merely providing an outlet for tendencies you already possess and will not act on in "real" life because of the fear of the consequences. Perhaps you could look at the game as a tool for learning who are what you are and then, as you have already begun to do, questioning if that is really the person you want to be or cultivate. We do have free will, although we are born with inclinations, we can decide how we cultivate those inclinations, and to what use we put them. Just something to consider.

Every single negative thought creates karma, regardless of what it is aimed
at. Whether the negative thought is aimed at yourself, at someone else, at
an animal, at a plant, at a chair or a tv screen.. every single negative thought
creates karma, and will come back at you through the Law of Attraction, one
day.

All karma must be made up in one of two ways - either voluntarily by means
of service to others, or creation of positivity, positive words, positive thoughts,
positive actions.. or involuntarily (if you wait too long), by hardship that is
opposed by the Universal Laws on you and your experience on this planet.

It's very urgent for us all to start bringing positivity into our lives, before the
karma of our negative actions, words and thoughts, literally wrecks our lives
and even destroys us. Because the closer we come to reaching the 5th
dimension in 2012, the faster the Law of Attraction will function, the faster our
karma will manifest into our reality.