US soldier avoiding Iraq ordered to leave Canada

All this is correct, no dispute here. Didn't want to give the impression that I was railing for the sake of it, just feel recruiters need to tell all these cavaets about getting unit approval for OCS, etc. Also wanted to point out the difference between a volunteer versus someone who at one point in time voluntarily signed a contract. A civilian volunteer works for as long as it compels them to do so whereas a military 'volunteer' made a single irreversible decision.

A less learned though the course of real world exposure, not something well understood in high school. It's not that I did not care what the particulars were, it's that I didn't expect a man in uniform to lie to my face.

[edit on 14-1-2009 by saint4God]

You're right legally. Morally however...



Indeed, hence the need for discussion and the promotion for positive change.



Or die trying.



It was both in my case. If you sell a company without disclosure that it had 14 billion in outstanding debts that you didn't tell your shareholders, you better believe there's going to be a lawsuit and that CEO is going to get strung up by his tickertape faster than wire transfer to a Dubai bank account.

[edit on 14-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God

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Many times the Recruiters simply don't know what to tell the enlistee though. I know my area of expertise, but I'd be lacking in info if I had to advise a soldier that was going to be a tank turret mechanic, avionics tech, Patriot missile crewman, Cook, etc...

So while there's probably some deliberate falsehoods told, there's an awful lot of info that's just not going to be available. That was the case for me anyhow when I first came in.

reply to post by saint4God

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Even if you know nothing else about the military, or what your job will entail, you should at least know that there is potential for danger. The military is a hazardous profession.

reply to post by BlueRaja

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That sums it up!!

I believe it's common knowledge the US Army is an organization that is known to do battle. Especially in a time of, well......... war.......

sadly some ppl can't grasp that ..

I am not now "just discovering" this, I was in the military for 4 years, if you would have bothered to read the rest of this thread you would have known that. I was merely putting some more information out there to get everyone's take on it.

I realize that, but thanks for your observation.

I think BlueRaja's right on his/her last two posts and agree, though also agree with desertdreamers post here too:



I'm very confident you're not the only one. I can name three friends I've had since age 12 who feel they were baited and switched by going into the military.

To lay much if any blame on recruiters for the CHOICES that others make is ridiculous.

Ask any four or five year old kid "What does a soldier do?" the general answers will be :war/fight related even in times of peace.

Did this woman forget what a soldier does in between watching Saturday morning cartoons as a kid, endless news articles and news shows, magazine articles and the recruiter's office at 17?

Did the recruiter force her to sign on the dotted line?

No she was sold a package deal. Education, security for three years +, housing and travel options and pension options, looks great on a resume and can open doors to other career choices after term. The recruiter's job is to highlight the positives DUH and even if they bald faced lie about the risk, every child on the planet pretty much KNOWS what a soldier does.

Even if the recruiter never mentioned the possibility of deployment to a battle situation this girl/woman had to have known what the military IS and what they ultimately are designed to do.

There is no clause for the enlisted: you cannot sign up to get the perks and then balk at the deployments on a pick and choose basis.

Yes at some point we have all gotten sucked into a sales pitch and that's exactly what she claims happened to her basically...but the fact remains that even at 17 she would have known what the military's #1 reason for existing was and is - sad that she didn't take more time to digest it before signing but ultimately it is her choice and responsibility.

My Ex was AWOL from the US Army in 1987 and 88 and managed a discharge (honorable) just before they started deploying for Desert Storm. Claiming family responsibilities and spousal obligations. Took 3 months to work the discharge and explain the AWOL charges (dropped). He had previously served his 3 years in the US Marines a few years prior.

He had options and going AWOL was not the best approach. Once a formal request for discharge is started deployments are null and void until a decision is made which takes a few months or so and can be appealed indefinitely.

This lady had options and chose not to use them, opting instead to run from her obligations. She has to answer for it regardless.



[edit on 1/15/2009 by justgeneric]

They don't deserve all of the blame, only half. That half is the part where they knowingly deceive teenagers into signing a contract. Although this deception may not be illegal, I'm shocked that anyone can ethically, morally justify wo/men in uniform lying to the ones they're supposed to serve and protect. Civilians are the boss of the military, not the other way around. Try lying feeding a pack of lies to your boss sometime, see how long you stay employed.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by saint4God]

I just had to laugh at this... it's more like 30 dotted lines!

reply to post by saint4God

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Sorry saint I just can't agree.

if the recruiters can be shown to have been making false statements and it can be supported with documentation or or other satisfactory means of evidence then that's a whole other issue and one for the legal system and military law to sort out.

I know for a fact that information is omitted by recruiters, not technically a lie...but aside from the moral issues the fact remains:

We all know that the military is designed to fight...that'd be why they put a damn gun in your hands a week into basic and tell you that it will be your best friend for the next three years. C'mon even half of the blame on recruiters makes no sense.

The #1 problem with society and our consumerism society is refusal to take responsibility as consumers for our own damn purchases of services, goods, education, health care etc etc etc etc .

I'm sorry, but at even 17 when that gun was introduced to her during basic training, didn't she stop and wonder what it was all about???? At that point she had a slough of options for getting out and very easily I might add.
Yes easy.


As consumers from tender ages we are subjected to all forms of false and misleading advertising who precipitates that???? We do of course - so clearly we must also take responsibility for poor choices, uninformed choices and impulsive choices. We as a society are soooooo damn quick to blame anyone but ourselves for our ills and woes and it's pitiful.

If someone came up to any 17 year old on the street and said "Hey join the army today - I guarantee you won't end up in a war..." you'd have to have been living under a rock to buy it.

I have heard recruiters, they were at my Daughter's high school and they did a great job glossing over the "war" aspect of enlisting. Naturally!

You're not going to sell a service to a consumer by highlighting the risks and possible danger associated with that service - since when did we get special pardon in life for being stupid or careless or gullible?

The sooner people take responsibility for their "purchases" the better off we'll all be, as then the market of selling will change.

Having raised a daughter and surviving the teens years, I can tell you that ANY job even the most naive (and mine was and still is) get's a certain level of scrutiny based on a number of factors...everything from "do I really want to wear a fugly-arse uniform" to "how hard is this going to really be?". I have no doubt that at some point very early on this girl thought of possible cons before she signed. Even though they may have been naive she like any normal teen would have done some quickie considerations on the spot. I find it incredulous that one of those considerations wouldn't have been "gee what if a war breaks out?"

Desert Storm was not so long ago that people would forget. Then 9/11 and increased security was on everyone's mind, not to mention Afghanistan and Jordan and Syria and etc etc etc etc.

The recruiters responsibility is to promote the best of their product(s). Consumers have an obligation to THINK and if they can't even do that for themselves without laying blame then we are in big trouble.

Do I agree with recruiting practices? Nope. Will it change? No why should it - we as consumers allow shoddy sales practices to continue - did we forget we control the sales and services markets?????

This woman can turn this around, but she will still be required to take responsibility for HER choice. no one held a gun to her head (punny) and there is a clause to excuse the contract within a 48 hour period or some such (in Canada anyway not to mention under 19 you require parental signature to join reserves). I am certain the US has a similar clause releasing them within a certain time.

The military doesn't want you if you don't want them and there are ways to get out relatively painlessly though not expediently.

I did not have a tape-recorder with me at the time. I would if I suspected he was going to lie to me.



Ah yes, I've joined ATS to convince everyone of the 'hoax' that a recruiter told me a bunch of things that weren't true. I'm surprised the moderators haven't banned me yet.



It's a good thing our chicken soup doesn't have cyanide in it. That would be a convenient truth to leave out. Just because it wasn't listed on the ingredients doesn't mean it's not in there, right? Cavaet Emptor, it's a wonder we have a lawyers, judges and a legal system if the retailer's sales pitch is law.



Please explain how once someone is sworn in at age 18 that they can easily exit basic training.



If they were in a U.S. Military Uniform, I would think they would have to be obliged by truth...or is truth only for civilians?



Careful with the chicken soup, you may end up dead from being 'stupid' or 'careless'.



Please explain. How does one relatively painlessly revoke their contract with the military?

[edit on 15-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God

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Saint,

Chicken soup a la cyanide is an interesting analogy. juss sayin'.

back on topic and minus any personal attacks -

The military does provide a slough of loopholes I HAVE researched it, I married into it, and I support the military though I have issue with many policies and the like.

I realize that personal opinion can be very powerful, but the information is there for all to find and a trip to any recruiter or even a call to a recruiter can clear up many your questions. I suggest you do that as I have.

That's not a snippy response either. I could spend all day discussing the issue of military and it's pros and cons and provide facts and supporting documentation both for an against - but I'm here to simply provide the other side of the discussion and hopefully encourage people to question and investigate further.

I am not interested in making things easy by providing endless linkage and PDF's etc etc etc ad nausea....with one phone call you could have all the answers you need. Right from the horses mouth and without my colorful comentary or suggestion.

here's a few hints though so you know what to ask about - knowing how most sales pitches work - you gotta know what to ask to get the real scoop.

Delayed Enlistment Program

Search for a copy of the - Department of Defense Form 4/1

You will notice that at the very bottom of this STANDARD form(DoD4/1) (used for all of the services) the CLAUSE:




now let's clarify "easy" okay?

As opposed to packing up said young family and hightailing it to Canada on the lam, the stress and fear of deportation and likely court martial upon her deportation, the breakup of her new family and legal expenses incurred and yet to be incurred - yes her options comparatively WERE easy.

She dug a hole, ignoring the escape routes available which would require her to face up to her obligations and provide information and reasons as to why she should be released from her obligation of active duty. NOW her issues are much bigger - oh well - back to what she could have and should have done:

Discharges to investigate:

Honorable
Under Honorable
Under Other Than Honorable
Entry Level Separation
Bad Conduct and Dishonorable - often include jail time or severe fines

There is no breach of contract if you have lied to your recruiter or they have lied to you (unless it can be shown in writing or other corroborating evidence as I mentioned earlier)

The contract is pretty dang specific and the same theme is reiterated on several pages of it requiring signature and acknowledgment of the contents.

found on Section D and block 13a of the Enlistment Contract (standard form)


The time limit for Voluntary Discharge when enlisted under the Delayed Enlistment Program is a standard 30 days.

This is THE most common enlistment for those entering the reserves (commonly those under the age of majority) - the article did not state which method of enlistment she enlisted under so this is speculative.

Hardship - if one does not qualify for a release under hardship they may qualify for reassignment to a Humanitarian Assignment.

The Army's definition of hardship:


As demonstrated by her choice to flee her responsibility and assume AWOL status - she would not qualify now. She could have however prior to listing as AWOL.

Pregnancy - The Military has tried to make it easier for families and all enlisted with children be they single or coupled are required to have a Family Care Plan. If they are not able to meet the requirements of that plan they may be eligible for release under a general discharge or an honorable discharge.

had she not chosen AWOL and applied for a discharge of this kind she more than likely would have been successful. it is not an option for her now.

Early Discharge for Education - N/A to this issue - but allows for an early discharge up to 90 prior to normal discharge date - is subject to approval by the CO. As yet only the Navy really employs this discharge and teh Marines, Air Force and Army do not.

The Convenience to the Government discharge - the catch all which applies to my statement of "the military doesn't want you if you don't want it." it covers many different forms of inconvenience to personnel which might inconvenience the government/military machine in general terms.

This would have been her best option and this one is relatively easy. Demonstrate that your beliefs, situation at present and immediate future, mental state (whatever) might create an inconvenience and or prevent you from fulfilling ALL of the terms of your contract and you can apply. It is time consuming, but there are no active deployments while a "discharge" is being decided and as I said it can be appealed until the cows come home (also an inconvenience hint hint)

Conscientious Objector - likely her current line of excuse and will undoubtedly fail. While you can excuse yourself from active duty and receive a discharge under this clause relatively simply with repeated appeals of course) it has to be a blanket objection and not one based solely ona particular war or deployment. And this one is likely no longer an option as she has chosen AWOL status.

Search for: DoD Directive 1300.6 for more information on the eligabilities and how they classify certain issues.

there are soooo many more and I leave this with you as a Military 101 of sorts. Hopefully others who have been thinking of the military as a career will also research these as well as the actual contracts BEFORE signing.

Her actions have now limited her options and a court martial is pretty much a given once she is deported (and she will be). She, as does anyone newly recruited. have relatively simple options for getting out, BUT they must face the obligation head on as opposed to running in order to limit the amount of grief and time and energy involved in breaking the contract.

had she tackled this in the first few months of enlistment she would not be in this mess currently.

Compared to her situation now...yes her options were simple and relatively easy. much easier than what she's facing.

happy researching.

And as for Canada there is a clause similar to the 30 day clause under the Delayed Enlisment.

[edit on 1/15/2009 by justgeneric]

Loopholes eh? To outwit a snakey recruiter, one must become snakey themselves. Okay, so there's no honorable/noble ways of working to be released from contract. Becoming pregnant or making an insanity plea sounds like the best bet since everything else undergoes C.O. approval. It's kind of sexist actually, since a female can try to get pregnant as an exit strategy whereas a man cannot (not saying this is usually case but would be surprised to hear it never happening). Apparently mere pregnancy isn't enough in this case (unless she had the children before the military).



Somehow this sounds a lot 'easier' than it truly is. Yes you'd mentioned it may take time (sounds like a false-hope recruiter's pitch actually) and appeal processes to get through...so in the meanwhile you'll be in the front lines, right? After all, the first people a company wants to get rid of are their unhappy/problematic employees. My question is if indeed it is so easy, why did she pack up her whole family and move to a foreign country? Maybe she likes to take the hard way out of things.

Have you a concrete example of someone voluntarily exiting the military before the end of their contract because they didn't want to do it anymore? I have three examples of people wanting to exit and not being able to.

[edit on 16-1-2009 by saint4God]

Good for the Canadians. I had to go, spent 18mo fighting against them. I did not want to be there. But I did what I enlisted to do "Fight". This coward of a female would not have anything to worry about. She would have sat on a FOB "Base". Some of us actually went in combat. She should be locked away in Military Confinement until the end of her enlistment.

I wanted to follow-up on this story and see what happened to Riviera. It seems she was granted a stay, and was able to stay in Canada for the time being with her family. Story below:



Source

Why would anyone have to leave the country?

Soldiers take an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution. The Iraq War is unconstitutional, thus they do not have to follow orders to deploy.

It's pretty clear cut, so I'm not quite getting why they are leaving the country. Stand your ground in America, you have clout. You can prove the war is unconstitutional, no need to run away.