Hi, even though i am a firm believer in ufos being inteligently controled and not originating from earth... i am not a basher of skeptics, everybody is entitled to their own opinions, and i understand why, without absolute proof, ie an actual spaceship landing and little green men getting out, that you would require more for you to admit that ufos are actually alien spaceships.

So, with that neutral understanding out of the way, this is my question to you.

What do you think these crafts are?

You cant be so nieve as to asume that(the term ufo - unidentifield flying object), the millions of pictures, thousands of video footages, and the many many many witneses whove seen these things, all absolutly saw nothing, or at least just saw a bird or a balloon every time, well that would be denying logic, as if they were just birds there wouldnt have been that official pheonix lights press statement, there wouldnt have been project bluebook, and there wouldnt have been the official u.s statement about the lights over the capital in the 1950s.

So, i think we are agreed on two things, that UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS, are a reality, and that even though, yes im sure on some occasions people are hallucinating, or just genuinely mistook a bird or something, howver... some of them are definatly some form of flying craft... that can absolutly not be denied, to deny that would be like denying that we need feet to walk.

However, with that in mind, we get to the main question....
what do skeptics in their own minds (the ones who are either convinced there is no inteligent life outside earth, or even the ones who want to believe, but just need more proof), think these things are.

Lets go with the theory of `they are our craft`.
Well lets examine that possibility, with the frame of mind that they are actually flown by pilots so to speak.

Some of these objects take off at speeds which are absolutly impossible for a human being to be inside, as the body would literaly disintergrate with traveling at those speeds.
To safely travel inside those (assuming they have pasengers inside), would require some kind of magnetic protection shield creating some sort of defence field around you, and that my friends im sure we can safely say that we are definatly at the absolute very least a century away from achieving. (bear in mind that sort of field would make you indestructible on a battle field, allow you to go under water as long as you want, walk through fire etc because you are not afected by your surroundings.)

Why am i mentioning all those fantastic sci fi like posibilties? because im saying that the only way for somebody to travel in a craft at those absolute imense speeds would be to have a device which shields your from the atmosphere around you... and obviously upon seeing what a sort of device we would be talking about (in my description above) we are definatly talking hundreds of years possbly milleniums.

So, that rules out if they are `ours` for them to be flown by passengers.

Next, the possibility of them being externally controled.
Well where are all these control centres that these thousands of crafts are being controled from.

Surely the control waves needed to guide these crafts would be so powerful we would know about them? ie they would interfer with our radio stations tvs etc.

Next, do we have any planes which are absolutly completly silent? make no sound, not even the sound of flapping wind?

I could go into this in far greater detail but my point is

as put forward above, SOME (not all but some) are clearly some sort of flying craft.
if you dont believe that they are `alien craft`?
then what do you think they are, bearing in mind what ive said about how its unlikely to be manned or controled externally.

thanks

looking forward to a very interesting discussion and to see a side of the skeptic ive never seen before




[edit on 7-1-2009 by elliotuk90]

The way i see it, people on the most are retards - if they aren't using some statistical falacy to pick lotto numbers or believing everything the news tells them they are believeing in some nonsense old book or insane new quackery like scientology - of course millions of people think they see something 'not of this earth' - could the people that say this even identify all the flying things that the public are supposed to know about, let alone secret plains and spy drones?

My entire family are photographers and over the years i've seen hundreds of light blobs, lens specs and other random marks on pictures -i've also seen birds over exposed turn into glowing disks, rewound film producing overlayed images and million other things that look awesome - of course that blob 'could' be a alien ship, but there are a million other things it could be.

Then consider how many bad fakes exist, people with books to sell publishing any old nonsense to make a quick buck - for every 100 bad fakes there must be a good one.

I don't say that we have never been visited by aliens, if i was a passing alien race then i would probably have a little look to see whats going on - however to they come all the time with messages and abductions and things is just silly, they certainly don't need to enslave us -if they have ships that can travel the distance of space i doubt they need a few billion retarded earth savages to serve them, we almost have robots -they certainly will.

All these people they like to talk about 'the greys' etc i've noticed they all just happen to be communicating with aliens who share their exact same world view, thats more than a little suspect if you as me. Maybe it is a case of too many nutjobs drowning out the sensible people but still if my options are to go on the hearsay of some delusional attention seeker or wait for solid proof then i'll wait for the proof thanks.

My opinion is, most are aircraft, weather conditions & debris burning up in the atmosphere.

I believe this because of the multiple videos I've seen which show the above & the countless debris I see streak across the night skies.

I'm sure some people, & I'm not attempting to mock the believers here, only beleive for the entertainment factor or treat it like a religion.

I guess it's more exciting to believe in other worldly visitors.

Unfortunately I can't think like this, what with man kinds engineering achievements to date there is no shortage of fascinating information to be read, watched & absorbed. Just think what it takes to put a 747 in the air. Imagine the effort & precision needed to design, test & manufacture something that complex.

As someone else stated in another thread, there are things happening which cannot be explained as man-made aircraft using current "known" technology.

Until I witness one with my own eyes or see a technical drawing of a so called back engineered craft I will always remain less interested in the UFO phenomena than I am in mans aerospace achievements.

We have no idea what technology humankind is actually capable of now. I think the pure idea that we are the only things alone in this universe is utterly ridiculous. In fact it's so ridiculous that I can't actually put into words just how stupid the concept is that there could not be any aliens of any kind.

Unfortunately, that doesn't make it significantly more likely that some UFO's are flown by aliens. Considering the technology we had a hundred years ago, it's not particularly far-fetched to believe that these craft are all entirely ours. And until I see any evidence that they are alien (which is what I've been waiting for for years) we can only assume they are our craft. There's too much evidence and testimony to disregard the existence of some highly technological aircraft, but to go right on and assume they are alien is a very, very, very big leap.

As Mr. Sagan himself says: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You have to be aware that the idea that our governments are just making it LOOK like they can hold out the information on their public that aliens exist makes them look very powerful. Never forget that.

As a sceptic I try to put on my logic glasses when examining any strange phenomenon. The essential method of identification is to compare it with what we know to be true. We must use the 'scientific method'. If the observations defy known scientific principles, I remain baffled, but unconvinced that anything 'alien' is afoot. Asserting the presently inexplicable as evidence of ET seems very much like a belief in magic. And yes, I'm familiar with A. C. Clark.

I think the idea of UFOs being a manifestation of ET is secondary to the question of ET life. We have been looking for evidence of other life in the universe for over 50 years. Every day, a vast new area of the universe is examined but so far, we've come up with nothing. There's no evidence as yet to confirm life exists beyond the Earth.

The day someone finds proof positive that life out there exits, is the day ET will be justified. It doesn't have to be some androidical bulgey-eyed grey or anything like that. A simple, single non-Earthly bacterium will be enough. From that day on, ET intelligence exists and everything and anything is not just possible, it's virtually guarranteed.

WG3

Originally posted by elliotuk90
some of them are definatly some form of flying craft... that can absolutly not be denied, to deny that would be like denying that we need feet to walk.

[snip]

as put forward above, SOME (not all but some) are clearly some sort of flying craft.

[snip]

looking forward to a very interesting discussion and to see a side of the skeptic ive never seen before

I'll grant that the relative "newness" of your account may mean you haven't had the opportunity to read much of what skeptics here have to say about the subject. Most of them seem to be in close agreement on much of the phenomenology.

First, they are not "definitely", nor "clearly", some form of flying craft. That is not to say there is no possibility of that status. It's clear that the phenomena often appears in our atmosphere, apparently defying gravity and/or aerodynamics. But even that activity doesn't necessarily equate to "flying", like a bird or a Cessna; the right description may simply be "aloft", or "adrift". You must admit, many of the descriptions seem to fit a pattern of aimlessness.

One important factor of human cognition must be remembered.....when a human experiences a phenomena that is completely outside of their world-view, culture, instinct, or past, the brain must attempt to order the cognitive input into something recognizable or understandable. Often, it will use familiar "icons" or imagery to develop a memory. It is not always fallible.

The entire phenomena may be events that occur naturally, possibly inter-dimensional, that is so wildly beyond the human capacity to "compute" that it has been manifesting itself for all of human history as gods, fairies, elves, gnomes, etc......

There's more, but I don't feel like writing a book this morning.

Originally posted by elliotuk90
What do you think these crafts are?

If you are looking of a Skeptical Grand Unified Theory of UFOs, you are not going to find one. No one theory will explain every UFO case. Instead, one must look at each report on a case-by-case basis to find the best explanation for that case and that case alone.

Originally posted by elliotuk90
You cant be so nieve as to asume that...the many witneses whove seen these things, all absolutly saw nothing, or at least just saw a bird or a balloon every time...

Of course it would be naive. Which is why you will not find a single skeptic who says in every case witnesses were just seeing birds or balloons or hallucinating. That kind of skeptic only exists in the minds of the believers, not in reality. You are using the a common straw-man argument employed by believers; you contrast the stereotype of skeptics and skeptical arguments against UFO cases that cannot be explained by those stereotypes, declaring all skeptics to be naive or wrong.

Let me ask you a question: why are so you interested in what skeptics believe or do not believe, and less interested in proving your own beliefs?

[edit on 7-1-2009 by SaviorComplex]

i am and am not a skeptic. i'm not in that the idea of UFO's and Aliens existing here today on earth, well sheet, that's just an adventure waiting to happen. on the other hand, the constant ridicule is messed up.

i'd like to point out to the skeptics (including my brother who is the greatest and refuses to talk to me about anything even sudo-conspiracy) something that i realized.

skeptics are bred. skeptics are usually the people that are admired for their outstanding intelligence, and that intelligence is there rightly so. it's not that intelligence that makes a skeptic skeptic though. a skeptic is bred, and coding is implanted into their brains like programs, which thwart even the notion for one to entertain the idea that aliens are real here today.

sure a skeptic can try to imagine this scenario, but for skeptics, seeing is believing. skeptics are very programmable, and if i was a better programmer than the genius that begot skeptics, there'd be a lot less of you.

Originally posted by SaviorComplex

Originally posted by elliotuk90
What do you think these crafts are?

If you are looking of a Skeptical Grand Unified Theory of UFOs, you are not going to find one. No one theory will explain every UFO case. Instead, one must look at each report on a case-by-case basis to find the best explanation for that case and that case alone.

Originally posted by elliotuk90
You cant be so nieve as to asume that...the many witneses whove seen these things, all absolutly saw nothing, or at least just saw a bird or a balloon every time...

Of course it would be naive. Which is why you will not find a single skeptic who says in every case witnesses were just seeing birds or balloons or hallucinating. That kind of skeptic only exists in the minds of the believers, not in reality. You are using the a common straw-man argument employed by believers; you contrast the stereotype of skeptics and skeptical arguments against UFO cases that cannot be explained by those stereotypes, declaring all skeptics to be naive or wrong.

Let me ask you a question: why are so you interested in what skeptics believe or do not believe, and less interested in proving your own beliefs?

[edit on 7-1-2009 by SaviorComplex]

because i would love to understand the mind of a skeptic

you see
im not into sci fi
i really didnt believe in ufos till i saw a craft myself, which made be a believer, i know my truth and for me that is good enough.

however im just fascinated as to how some people can deny that all these sightings are balloons or didnt happen,

how can one be so ignorant

Originally posted by Crabmeat
a skeptic is bred, and coding is implanted into their brains like programs, which thwart even the notion for one to entertain the idea that aliens are real

That's not scepticism, it's biggotry.

Sceptiscism is about questioning everything rather than accepting a common view. A sceptic is in constant doubt about things without logical explanation, not one to accept unsupported conclusions. Sceptiscism is the power that feeds scientific development. If ETs exist and are visiting Earth in magical vehicles, they do so because they also have sceptics to further their endevours.

WG3

Originally posted by Crabmeat
...a skeptic is bred, and coding is implanted into their brains like programs...and if i was a better programmer than the genius that begot skeptics, there'd be a lot less of you.

What in the world are you talking about? Are you saying that skeptics are brainwashed? Do you really believe no one can have a sincere disagreement with you unless they are brainwashed or that who does disagree with you cannot think for themselves?

Originally posted by elliotuk90
because i would love to understand the mind of a skeptic

however im just fascinated as to how some people can deny that all these sightings are balloons or didnt happen,

how can one be so ignorant

I do not think you want to understand the mind of skeptics in the least.

You seem to have very little interaction with skeptics outside of what believers tell you what a skeptic is and how we behave. This stereotype is so entrenched, that despite skeptics on this board explaining to you that this is not what skeptics are or what they believe, you repeat the stereotypes and then accuse us of ignorance.

Please tell me how that is trying to undestand anything.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH YOU DAMNED SKEPTICS!

You take your foot out of your mouth only to TRY and put it in other peoples' mouths.

You're claiming that I believe in aliens, clearly, with your retort to my post. It's instantaneous ridicule. Why don't you keep your foot where it is, and ask yourself where your skepticism comes from.

Originally posted by Crabmeat
THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH YOU DAMNED SKEPTICS!

You take your foot out of your mouth only to TRY and put it in other peoples' mouths.

You're claiming that I believe in aliens, clearly, with your retort to my post. It's instantaneous ridicule. Why don't you keep your foot where it is, and ask yourself where your skepticism comes from.

Wow. Chill out dude.

You clearly don't know what a skeptic really is. And you don't even seem to be open to listening to what skeptic "believe". But I hope your rant made you feel better.



I am a skeptic. And for me that means, I go thru a process of what something could be, rather then just blindly believing every case is some alien being/ship. I am cautious and try and use reason and logic.

My thoughts are, that there has to be life outside of Earth as we know it. Though I tend to lean more towards the supernatural/paranormal side...not the little gray alien side. But really, the universe is never ending (so it seems) and is sooo huge, there must be some life out there. Maybe they are visiting us, maybe they aren't. I don't know. I have yet to see any convincing evidence/proof. But that doesn't mean it is not happening, IMO.

I believe many "UFOs" are man made, misunderstandings of what one is seeing (planes, birds, lanterns, etc), natural elements (birds, earthly lights, etc), space debris falling to Earth (meteors, satellites, etc), and/or supernatural beings (IE, angels).

I have never EVER seen anything that I could call a UFO, yet I know something is going on out there.

So, that is what this *skeptic* thinks.


****
OH DARN...didnt realize the OP is the infamous (to many) banned over and over weneedtoknow....or I wouldnt have responded

[edit on 1/7/2009 by greeneyedleo]

Originally posted by Crabmeat
ask yourself where your skepticism comes from.

I think you have got sceptiscism confused with bigotry. A bigot has only his own fixed views and will not be influenced by contrary evidence of any kind. A sceptic merely questions the common view if he feels unhappy with it. There is a world of difference. A sceptic might readily become a convicted believer if he could find the corroboration he seeks. You should encourage dialogue with sceptics to widen their view of things, not revile them. That after all is the way bigotry operates.

WG3

Originally posted by Crabmeat
THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH YOU DAMNED SKEPTICS!

You take your foot out of your mouth only to TRY and put it in other peoples' mouths.

You're claiming that I believe in aliens, clearly, with your retort to my post. It's instantaneous ridicule. Why don't you keep your foot where it is, and ask yourself where your skepticism comes from.

I said no such thing. It is implied that you are a believer of some sort, since you distinguish yourself from skeptics both in this post and your previous. But I made no claim as to what you believe.

What I brought up is why you seem to believe that people who disagree with you (ie; skeptics) are brainwashed, incapable of thinking for themselves or of sincere disagreement. You still have not told us why.

I also find it funny you wish you could brainwash people to agree with you.

I have an issue with the entire premise of this thread; it shows a great deal of hubris on the part of the OP if not many believers to claim it is they that have an understanding of the UFO phenomenon. The only way we can hope to understand it is if it is a collective of (more-or-less) mundane events. If the believers are right, and the phenomenon is being driven by extraterrestrial, then by its very nature it is incomprehensible. We would be not only be talking about aliens in every sense of the word but with civilizations far more advanced than our own, so that we would have no hope of understanding it.

I'm a sceptic, I think that the Ufo world is for
immature folk who think that they're the lead
in a movie.

When it comes to recognising stuff in the sky and
in the dark, when it comes to thinking about what
reality REALLY is, we don't know what we're talking
about.

The guys who do the lectures and coventions, they're
snake-oil salesman, the same basic 'scamming' game
as been going on for hundreds of years, I don't blame
them... they're filling a niche. (Maybe this site does too)

To put it more plainly, there a 'people' on this site who
are either believe they are aliens or have a 'special'
connection via undetectable ways, with these wonderous
beings who keep everything safe and ergo, nothing happens
to indicates proof, yet nothing ever happens, no secret
Government group grab 'em and finds out how they got here!


Buy the T-shirts and read the books, that's what we're
SUPPOSED to do.

[edit on 7-1-2009 by IronMan]

[edit on 7-1-2009 by IronMan]