Zionism and Ignorance

Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”).

The above was quoted form the Encyclopedia Britannica. To those of us that actually research information one of the things we would notice about this quote is the use of the past tense. Upon further research (a timeline of zionism on wikipedia) we would also notice that the timeline ends about late twentieth century. Zionism was a past political movement that does not exist today. Now if for some reason you're wondering, well what do we call people that support Israel? The same as anybody who supports their country!

So, now that we know what Zionism truthfully was why do people keep on repeating this dead term over and over again. Lets ask them, "Hey masonwatcher why do you keep on using an outdated political term?" The logic is so flawed it's like calling Germans Nazis. What purpose would there be to call repeatedly call someone a Nazi or a Zionist? What about calling someone a 'n-word' a or a kike? We do not use outdated terms or outdated racial slurs. To me they are one in the same. Anyone who constantly repeats and uses what is accepted as backward is themselves backward. And that is why I call masonwatcher an anti-Semite.

To those of us that actually research information one of the things we would notice about this quote is the use of the past tense.

This should actually read, "To those of us that selectively research information. ."

Believe me, there are myriad definitions available for the term "Zionism." Here is just one:

The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary offers a tersely neutral definition: "A movement for [originally] the reestablishment of a Jewish nationhood in Palestine, and [since 1948] the development of the State of Israel."

Even after the bloody birth of the state of Israel in 1948, Zionism has continued to elude an exact definition. As the Political Dictionary puts it: "Since 1948 Zionism has been broadened to imply the identification of world Jewry with Israel ... Zionism has also given financial, political and moral support to the Jewish state."

To blur matters still further, there have always been Jews who are not Zionist. Many orthodox religious Jews, even in Israel, believe that the creation by man of a Jewish state is an implicit usurpation of God's role.

And there are many liberal Jews, both in Israel and the diaspora, who are distinctly queasy about the 1967 conquest and subsequent occupation and colonisation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and who dislike the equation of Zionism with Israeli expansionism.

Anti-Zionism is also an ambiguous term, and of course depends on which view of Zionism is being opposed.

Most Arabs could be considered anti-Zionist because they dislike the very existence of the state of Israel. Others - Jews as well as gentiles - might describe themselves as anti-Zionist because they disapprove not of Israel, but of its policies.

www.guardian.co.uk...

[edit on 1/7/2009 by clay2 baraka]

reply to post by clay2 baraka


You have replied with the very lies that I clearly disproved. Zionism, Nazism, and Racism are over and done. Israel is a country not a Zionist movement. The only reason that one would repeat this myth is clearly closet racism and propaganda. As for Jews opposing the state of Israel that is in religious context, they would not be opposing Israel if it was located in Antarctica. Please do not confuse political context with religious context.

reply to post by Founding


Give me a break with the spit and vitriol.

Did you actually read the article? Or are you just basing your attack on assumptions that you made about its content? It was actually a very balanced article and was by no means bigoted or anti-Jewish.

Does any opposition to your viewpoint always elicit a knee-jerk, emotional response from you like this?

reply to post by clay2 baraka


If that's balanced then the earth is flat. The whole point of the article was the ambiguity of the term Zionism. Thus, the article in itself was ambiguous and at least lined out three positions on Zionism, which are all clearly in the past. This was the distinction I was trying to make. Zionism is a past term that has no purpose in any political discussion for today. Today, you do not deal with Nazis you deal with Germans, its that simple. If my response seemed emotional it was only because you chose to repeat the very idea that I had wanted to discredit. Then you come back and make it seem like your the victim. Grow up

reply to post by Founding

The only reason that one would repeat this myth is clearly closet racism and propaganda.

It is probably not in the best interests of a healthy debate to slyly allude that the other party is bigoted because they disagree with you.

It shows a lack of maturity to resort to ad-hominem attacks and hardly helps your argument.

Have a nice day.

[edit on 1/7/2009 by clay2 baraka]

An Encyclopedia is only as accurate as the information it is:
(a) Able to come upon
(b) Able to publish

A Definition of Zionism:
Zionism is the national revival movement of the Jewish people. It holds that the Jews have the right to self-determination in their own national home, and the right to develop their national culture. Historically, Zionism strove to create a legally recognized national home for the Jews in their historical homeland. This goal was implemented by the creation of the State of Israel. Today, Zionism supports the existence of the state of Israel and helps to inspire a revival of Jewish national life, culture and language.

What is Zionism?
Zionism is a political movement that includes many shades of opinion. Different factions of the Zionist movement and different commentators have offered different definitions of Zionism that suit their purposes and outlook. Not all of them are historically or ideologically accurate as generalizations.

1. Zionism as an ideology - Zionist ideology holds that the Jews are a people or nation like any other, and should gather together in a single homeland. Zionism was self-consciously the Jewish analogue of Italian and German national liberation movements of the nineteenth century. The term "Zionism" was apparently coined in 1891 (1885 according to some sources) by the Austrian publicist Nathan Birnbaum, to describe the new ideology, but it was used retroactively to describe earlier efforts and ideas to return the Jews to their homeland for whatever reasons, and it is applied to Evangelical Christians who want people of the Jewish religion to return to Israel in order to hasten the second coming.

2. Zionism as a descriptive term - It is also used to describe the belief that Jews should return to their ancient homeland, and might be applied not only to the religious ideas of Evangelical Christians, but to the preaching of the ancient prophets..

3. Zionism as a political movement - The Zionist movement was founded by Theodore Herzl in 1897, incorporating the ideas of early thinkers as well as the organization built by Hovevei Tziyon ("lovers of Zion").

What isn't Zionism?
Not everything that the Zionist movement accomplished, or that Zionists do or say, is a necessary part of Zionism

Not just about a state - Zionism was not, historically, officially a movement to create a "Jewish State." The first Zionist congress in Basle, Switzerland, in 1897 resolved:

Zionism seeks to establish a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public law (or International Law).

Zionists therefore sought charters from governments to establish a national home under their protection. The objectives of the Basle Program were thought to have been realized with the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and the Mandate for Palestine granted to the British in 1922. However, the British eventually reneged on their mandate obligation to support a Jewish homeland. In 1942 the Biltmore Conference resolved to adopt the goal of creating a Jewish state in Palestine, in opposition to British policy. This was not the original official goal of Zionism, but a departure from it forced by circumstances.

Not just about religion - There are many religious Zionists, and early proponents of return to Zion in the 19th century were rabbis. However, the founders of the Zionist movement were not religious and the Zionist movement is not about religion or return to a "promised land."

Are You a Zionist?
Everyone has to decide for themselves if they are a Zionist. If you believe that the Jews are a people, and support the right of the Jews to a national home, and you are willing to stand up for that right when it is challenged, then you can call yourself a Zionist, whether or not you belong to any organized Zionist group or accept any "official" definition, and whether or not you live in Israel or plan to live in Israel - and whether or not you are Jewish.

Source: Zionism-Israel.com

The above is from a pro-Zionist, pro-Israel organization. Whether you agree with it or not or take exception to it, it is clear that millions of people around the world identify themselves as being Zionist, and that some of these people are not religious, and not Jewish, which clearly illustrates that Zionism is purely a political movement.

Having said that, millions of self proclaimed Zionists are Jewish and are Israeli as well.

All seem to agree there are many different Zionist organizations with varying goals and descriptions.

I think you would be well served to accept that millions of actual Zionists would not submit to the Encyclopedia Britannica’s definition.

When people like myself refer to Zionists here in posts on ATS it is in fact in the very same way you might refer to Republicans or Democrats. Likewise they too are political movements that constantly redefine themselves by the majority and their successes in their endeavors.

People like me when placing Zionist in a post actually understand that not all Zionists are Jewish or religious, just as not all Republicans are Jewish or religious, and not all Democrats are Jewish and Religious.

ATS is about denying ignorance not perpetuating it.

Thanks