Originally posted by johnny2127
If innocent civilians are targeted by either side ON PURPOSE it is WRONG. But to take it a step further and start killing Jews all over the world just because they are Jewish? This is the movement that Israel is fighting against, and this is how low they will stoop.

Hey look at the Israeli hardliners using the word IF. Cool as space. Imagine that, a hardliner leaving a wide open soft spot to probe. "If innocent civilians are targeted by either side ON PURPOSE it is WRONG" so the appearance of the Israeli operated American AH-64 helicopters over Palestine and shooting weapons at Palestinians can't then be not on purpose. See, operating an attack chopper required that forethought was applied to its operation. Prior to shooting a guided missile a target must be acquired. Thanks to what you stated we now know that this is WRONG.

Originally posted by Alpha_Magnum

Originally posted by johnny2127
If innocent civilians are targeted by either side ON PURPOSE it is WRONG. But to take it a step further and start killing Jews all over the world just because they are Jewish? This is the movement that Israel is fighting against, and this is how low they will stoop.

Hey look at the Israeli hardliners using the word IF. Cool as space. Imagine that, a hardliner leaving a wide open soft spot to probe. "If innocent civilians are targeted by either side ON PURPOSE it is WRONG" so the appearance of the Israeli operated American AH-64 helicopters over Palestine and shooting weapons at Palestinians can't then be not on purpose. See, operating an attack chopper required that forethought was applied to its operation. Prior to shooting a guided missile a target must be acquired. Thanks to what you stated we now know that this is WRONG.

While to you and I it seems obvious, to others it is not. Go read back in this thread. People time and again have argued that Hamas can target innocent children because of an 'eye for an eye' doctrine. My point was directly back to that. If Israel targets children and innocents thats wrong. If Hamas or anyone else does, thats wrong. You want me to not use the word 'IF'? Fine. When anyone, Israel or Hamas or Hezbollah or the USA or anyone else, targets innocents, it is wrong. Period.

Some people are so absurd. I use the the word 'IF' and that means it was a hard-line pro-Israel comment. Apparently saying no one should kill kids or innocents is a hard-line Israel backer point of view.

Originally posted by johnny2127
While to you and I it seems obvious, to others it is not. Go read back in this thread. People time and again have argued that Hamas can target innocent children because of an 'eye for an eye' doctrine. My point was directly back to that. If Israel targets children and innocents thats wrong. If Hamas or anyone else does, thats wrong. You want me to not use the word 'IF'? Fine. When anyone, Israel or Hamas or Hezbollah or the USA or anyone else, targets innocents, it is wrong. Period.

Some people are so absurd. I use the the word 'IF' and that means it was a hard-line pro-Israel comment. Apparently saying no one should kill kids or innocents is a hard-line Israel backer point of view.

Generally hardliners are products of their own propaganda. Edwin Bernays was asked by a instant cake making company how they could reach more women and increase sales since at that time women seemed content to bake from scratch. He pondered it and told Pillsbury to add to the instructions list, "Add one EGG" His deeper understanding of human nature told him that the women in question would find this appealing since it is a fertility symbol. Sales took off.

When approached by cigarette companies who wanted more smokers and women fit the bill Bernays struck again with a massive PR stunt (propaganda) known as the "Torches of Freedom" doubled the amount of smokers nearly overnight. I can go on and on with examples about how Americans have been converted into consumer drones but I need not underscore that point.

You stated, "If innocent civilians are targeted by either side ON PURPOSE it is WRONG. But to take it a step further and start killing Jews all over the world just because they are Jewish? This is the movement that Israel is fighting against, and this is how low they will stoop."

Hardliners like you simply lives to retort other posters, however this time you said, "IF" and doing so allowed you to state information that is subjective and strictly an opinion. That opinion you expressed COUNTERS YOUR OWN standard retorts that are posted all over this message board. Sure now you cry foul. This is due to the fact that you are loosing face and credibility in your posts.

If you target an Israeli naturally you are going to hit a Jew. The Jews after all created the nation of Israel. Hebrew is the national language of Israel and also the language of the Jews. The Star of David is a Jewish religious symbol and also the national symbol of Israel. There is not even a valid counterargument to offer on this point but you insist that.

It is you who have stated over and over about how "Muslim Fanatics this" and "Muslim Fanatics that" but failed to realize that the Israelis on the opposing side are Jewish Fanatics who operate prison and death camps in the land that they declared to be the home of God's chosen people.

Essentially the USA was to be a Christian nation according to the Founding Fathers but the Bill of Rights guarantees religious freedom while the national flag of Israel is proof of a religious nation. English is not the language of Christianity but Hebrew is the language of Israel. Naturally none of this will make sense to you since you are a closed door.

Johnny, I wish you would steer another course since to me you don't seem like an inherently evil or bad man and you happen to be extremely intelligent and that quality I happen to respect very much. It is not due to you being pro Jew or that I am Pro Arab (for me I like to think of GOD as an acronym for Good Orderly Direction) it is that you believe in the governments explanations for the events of the world.

The IF you used meant that you invalidated your claim that Jews and Israelis (completely interchangeable) are only defending themselves.

Originally posted by earthman4
This sounds just like the guy in church who said we should kill all Muslim children so they won't grow up to be terrorists.

Sorry if this offends you church-going folks, but my personal experience has been that, the people who go to church and scream about being christians the most, actually follow the teachings of christ the least. that comment from a church-goer doesn't surprise me at all.

They are an extremist group, only someone in heavy denial won't admit this. This is a surprise?

And as an extremist group, they launch attacks from schools. If you want to pin the blame on Israel, you need to at LEAST equally pin the blame on the Hamas as well. I think they are quite a bit more responsible for this than Israel, but meh.. that's neither here nor there, people will believe what they believe in, no matter what proof you show them.

Originally posted by johnny2127
Well thought out and reasoned post. Even though I don't agree with what you said about me, I can respect what you said and your reasoning.

I would definitely not be considered a hardliner honestly. I would never support Israel no matter what they did, or condemn Palestine or Hamas or any other organization now matter what. I think for myself and would not blindly support anyone or anything. My point is simply that Hamas is indefensibly wrong when they call for the targeting and murder of Jewish children all over the world that have nothing to do with their conflict. There is no defense for that. People can try justifying that, but it will never be a moral thing. You seem like a very intelligent person and I am sure you would agree with that.

Israel is not blameless of course, but me making a comment about how low it is for Hamas to seek to murder Jewish children all over the world should not set over calls of me being a hardliner or anything like that. I think it is wrong to label people as such things without much information. If I incorrectly called anyone a Radical Islamic then I have no problem saying I was wrong. But organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah are radical and they are Islamic. I know many Muslims and not one supports any of those organizations and they condemn they actions in entirety. Their view, which I agree with, is that they are taking advantage of a nad situation that people in their areas are in, and actually making things worse for them.

Johnny,
I took time to point out that nearly everything that happens has a cause. Your smart enough to be dangerous but foolish enough to trust the media. There is an important fact in the world that is rarely stated that I will share with you now...
History is written by the winner!
but that in and of itself...
Seldom makes it true.

In your signature you have a quote made by one of my most upstanding Americans of all time, George Washington. I'm sure posting his "Foreign Entanglement" quote is not necessary at this time. The USA if involved in this or matters like this should limit that involvement to humanitarian aid at the most. Taking sides creates a conundrum since it impedes the natural progress of events or changes them completely. More importantly it never helps America's position.

Our involvement with the British continues till this day even though it was they who were determined to expand as a global super power. It was the Germans that purchased the mineral rights to a vast many areas in the Mideast prior to WW1 breaking out. History tells us that Archduke Ferdinand was the catalyst to starting WW1 but ponder that for a while and think about what you are being expected to believe. I don't care what anyone says, NO ONE IS THAT POPULAR that the world would go to war over him.

There must be another reason and level of acceptable probability and here it is...

•Wm. D'Arcy's Burmah Oil Co. 1901 concession that led to the great 1908 gusher at Masjid-i-Sulaiman and formation of 1909 Anglo-Persian Oil Co.
•Mideast oil important to the British navy in WWI; BP an instrument of imperial policy.

It isn't that there were not numerous reasons and circumstances it is that the winners downplayed the importance of "Masjid-i-Sulaiman" It is much more easy to raise a massive army and fight based on religious differences, assassinations, territorial disputes and more but tell a man that he is going to fight for control of oil in 1900 and you will get laughed at.

The Arab nations have been given a bad rap and if not for the oil none of them would matter to us. Thanks to not keeping in tune with what George Washington warned about we and England created a monster.

[edit on 8-1-2009 by Alpha_Magnum]

Originally posted by johnny2127
However, this topic is purely about Hamas's stated intention to kill Jewish kids all over the world. And as I have said dozens of times not, that is not a defensible act. You aren't even commenting about this, what are your thoughts?

Honestly Johnny,
Thread after thread you cross post with your opinion on not only what I have stated but many others as well. At any point when a member here posts something you disagree with you point it out as though you have it all right and they and me are wrong. You are a hardliner and I don't hold that against you.

As I have stated the winners are the ones that write history. If you believe that Hamas will kill Jewish kids all over the world than you do. Numerous posters here have to you directly pointed out that Israel has gone "Mad Dog" Essentially their situation resembles that of someone driving a nail with a pile driver. I pointed out to you that if Hamas is a radical Muslim group than the same is true of the Israelis and they are a radical Jewish group.

Several times I mentioned that at the root of all of this is the USA/GBR and our quest for OIL. Essentially everything that has happened since around 1900 (The Great American Century) has been a result of our perpetual presence there. Our financial and military support to Israel (that we cannot afford) is in fact allowing the Israelis to hold the Palestinians in a perpetual prison camp. Now that camp is a death camp.

I see this matter expanding and growing. Will the Hamas people be able to kill Israelis and their children around the world? Odds are that they might and if they do it in the USA that would not surprise me since we have sided with the Jews of Israel. I would rather that the USA promoted peace by setting a good example, ceasing delivery and sales of weapons around the world and if we are to be involved at all then that involvement should be strictly humanitarian aid. That I also mentioned several times.

I like when people say things like, "I hope they spare the children" or "protect the children it is the adults that should be dealt with" or anything along those lines. It is as though they believe that little babies will be OK w/ no parents or shelter or food or sanitation. The believe that the ones that do survive will be fine and happy. Realists know that as soon as they are able they will seek revenge!

Now as for what we should do...

What we should do or what I think we will do are completely different things. We (the USA) should pull out of and close down all of our operations and bases and declare PEACE. We should stick with the principals of our founding fathers. We should establish term limits on all political positions to allow more Americans the opportunity to serve the public. We should give aid in the form of food, materials, labor and know how to any nations we have damaged. We should restore the worlds view of us as a good example.

Naturally we will do the other and continue to push Iran into the fight, have drafts and there will be much death including our own children. In a depression people STARVE.