Due to there being a thread titled "I’m Sick Of The Anti Israel Sentiment Here On ATS!", it is only fair to present a contradicting side to the perceived reasons for "anti Israel sentiment" on ATS.

Supporters and sympathizers of Israel typically go to ridiculous lengths to justify the murderous actions of the Israeli government in their "fight for survival", as many call it. Namely, any one who questions the motives and actions of Israel is pro-Islamic Jihad or anti-Semitic.

Both retorts are nothing more than cop outs and do nothing to analyze the facts of what is going on in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. Israeli apologists are more than honored to pay attention and consider information that conforms to their pre-determined conclusions of what is going on in the region. But attempt to present anything different - any opposing view - and the need for something called facts goes out the window.

Congratulations, open-minded individual: you're anti-Semitic and should be searched for weapons.

Anti-Semitism is the discrimination of Jews, while pro-Islamic Jihad is the support for a Muslim holy war against "infidels". Questioning the actions of the Israeli government makes you no more anti-Semitic than questioning Barack Obama makes you racist against blacks. Questioning the actions of the Israeli government makes you no more pro-Islamic Jihad than reading the Koran does.

Many pro-Israeli individuals point to suicide bombings and rocket attacks as terrorist atrocities against Israel. Is it somehow more honorable to fire 500 lb. air-to-surface missiles at civilian targets than it is to stand at civilian targets and detonate yourself?

What is often overlooked is why the Palestinians are angered by the presence of Israel. I know claiming they are just terrorists and they hate freedom is a nice, convenient, boogeyman explanation for you, but for the sake of logic, lets deny a little ignorance.

You have all seen this map:



Can any of you honestly say that you would not be upset if the United Nations ripped your home country from you and gave it to someone else? Can any of you honestly say that you would not be upset if this new government sponsored the destruction of your homes and towns and forced you to what essentially amount to two large refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank, and consistently cut off your access to vital resources?

I cannot stand the double standards. Civilians being killed by Islamic militants is a terrorist atrocity and it is murder. Civilians being killed by Israel is collateral damage and that is just how war is.

Israel possesses nuclear weapons when no other country in the region is permitted to. Israel receives economic and military aid from the United States. Israel faces no consequences for it's actions thanks to their puppet holding a veto in the Security Council. Israel steals from and murders the people who used to legally own the land in which they launch their genocidal campaigns from.

Israel deserves no sympathy nor respect from any one. What it deserves is consequences for it's actions.

Questioning what goes on and what you are told does not make you pro or anti anything. Questioning what goes on and what you are told is an attempt to sort out the propaganda from the facts in order to ensure what everyone claims they want for the region: peace and stability. Anything short of questioning what goes on and what you are told is nothing more than a direct admission that to you the status quo is acceptable and we need not make any change.

End the double standards. Review the facts. Stop supporting a murderous regime.

[edit on 1/6/09 by NovusOrdoMundi]

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What are you talking about? The Israelis are allowed to kill off and drive out the Palestinians! God told them to do it. For crying out loud, they are the One Chosen people of the world above all others, and their actions must not be questioned! How can the Israelis be the bad guys here? They are just obeying the orders of their God. [/sarcasm]

"The LORD is a man of war: The LORD is his name." EXODUS 15:3

"And the LORD spoke unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan (Palestine); Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places. And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land.." NUMBERS 33:50-53

"And the LORD thy GOD shall deliver them before thee; thou shall smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shall make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them." DEUTERONOMY 7:2

"Now go smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." 1 SAMUEL 15:3

At the risk of being called an anti semite I would have to concurr.

My sister married a Jew a few years ago, now she treats the rest of the family as less than herself.

It is quite disconcerting to view the seperation her conversion to the Jewish faith has put between her and the rest of our family.

We got kicked out of her house for putting a half eaten bacon and egg mcmuffin, that we bought our kids for breakfast on time, in their bin.
Respecting their faith, I made the kids sit on the pavement outside their house in the middle of Sydney to eat their breakfast but It seems like not even our rubbish is good enough for their bin!

As for the Middle East, from what I can see, the Palistinians have had the hard end of the stick as far as the creation of the state of Israel and certainly as far as the atrocities they have endured.

Please don't come back with but they bomb Israel, blah, blah blah.
It's bloody balony.

If you put all the hurt and suffering on a scale I know who's weighs the most.

I am sorry if other do not feel this way, but this is the conclusion I have come to based on the experiences I have had during my life.

My 2 cents.

To hell with Israel! And to hell with all its slick politicians, million dollar lobbying efforts, and every soldier who fires a bullet while in Palestine.

In the same right, to hell with Hamas and its officials focusing on their own political well being, for not fighting like hell for the war they are partially responsible for, and their cowardice "acts of war."


May peace only be with those who truly want and deserve it. Let tragedy and sadness come to those who don't. This including the idiots from both sides spurring it on like its some sort of sporting event.

Originally posted by afaik
If you put all the hurt and suffering on a scale I know who's weighs the most.

Somehow people of the West have been indoctrinated to believe that any one the United States supports is good. No matter what the facts say - no matter what the ones supported are accused or proved of doing - so long as the United States sends it's support, they are always on the right side of a conflict and are the victim when attacked.

This can be proved wrong on many occasions. Three examples immediately come to mind: Indonesia, Turkey, and Nicaragua. We supported Indonesian slaughter of the people of East Timor. We supported Turkish oppression of the Kurds. We supported terrorism in Nicaragua simply because we disapproved of a government there that made their country stable and prosperous.

There are other instances where our support was with nations or groups that ended up being labeled "state sponsors of terrorism" or "terrorists". The obvious ones are Iraq and Al-Qaeda.

In cases like the aforementioned terrorism in Nicaragua, our support for terrorism when it supports our agenda is clear. The International Court of Justice ruled in favor of Nicaragua and condemned US actions in the case brought forth by Nicaragua. If an unbiased, uninterrupted review of our support for Israeli atrocities were ever reviewed there would be a similar result.

A simple look at history reveals United States sponsorship of terrorist regimes and organizations. Israel's actions are, by definition, terrorism. At the very least we should condemn both sides of this conflict for terrorism, and most appropriately, we should end our support for Israel. But at no point does this become the 'good vs evil' conflict that we in the West are made to believe it is.

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Originally posted by drock905
when you look at it from the ancient roots you see how both sides can kill over it and feel justified.

The way I see it, either both are justified or neither is justified. It is not one is justified and the other is a terrorist. That viewpoint of this conflict only provides a continuation to it's 1,500 year lifespan.

What ever the case, Hamas is not justified in killing Israeli civilians, and Israel is not justified in killing Palestinian civilians. One side of this conflict believes the first and not the second. The other side believes the second and not the first. The truth and the reality always lies in the middle.

If both sides could see past their own propagandized national, ethnic, and religious pride, then we would be one step closer to both sides meeting at that mid-way point.

I'm not going to add much, but one thing that I find really discriminating about the State of Israel is that only Jews are allowed to buy land.

In 1960, the Knesset adopted the Basic Law -- Israel Lands, which formalised this. In proposing the law in the Knesset, religious affairs minister Zerah Warhaftig explained how the name of the law indicates Jewish ownership of the land: "we gave this law the name Basic Law: Israel Lands [...] We want to make it clear that the land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel

Also Israel has marriage laws...

The measure known as the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law,[15] passed by the Knesset on 31 July 2003, does not enable the acqusition of Israeli citizenship or residency by a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza Strip via marriage.[16] The law does allow children from such marriages to live in Israel until age 12, at which age the law requires them to emigrate.[17]

How is this not Apartheid? yet the US claims this to be a true democracy.

This is going in the both the anti and pro Israel post .

The old adage 2 wrongs dont make a right . Israel gets rockets fired in the city 10 killed Israel goes to Gaze kills 200 . Damn it Hamas and Israel if you want to fight fine kill the troops and militants leave the non combatants out of the war. Quit killing women and children killing them only fans the flames .

These people have been killing each other for generations . Every time there is a chance at peace one of you screws it up .

IF the UN moved a group of people in my area set up that a new government Which then kicked me out of the home and farm that has been in my family for generations killed my wife and one of my kids then moved a new settler into my old family home you are darn right I would be mad. No one in his right mind woundnt be mad ! Now to kill innocent by standers to get back for that crime is just as wrong .

This is so reminiscent of what happened to the American Indians . The were penned them up and any resistance or up rising was met with extreme prejudice men women and babies killed not just the braves that did the acts . We literally starved some tribes into submission . The longest Walk is a good example. We were wrong then and Israel is Wrong now ! Segregation and starvation is wrong denial of medical care and killing of innocents is wrong on both sides .

When we had gang war fare in the 30s we threw both bosses in jail and killed or threw all the rank and file in jail as well .We continued doing that till the violence subsided . Is that what the UN will have to do to stop the madness ?

It seems we have 2 criminal elements fighting each other. Killing non combatants is a crime .

I bet every one wants peace but what will they give up for peace ? Will they share a little political power a little land will they give up the need for revenge and stop killing women and children . If neither side will give up killing non combatants then it will never end till one is utterly destroyed . As long as they both have political machines that are hell bent on the others destruction this will never end .And if neither side will give up killing innocent bystanders again this will never end . And supporting either side is contributing to the genocidal destruction of a culture .

Originally posted by Lostinthedarkness
This is going in the both the anti and pro Israel post .

The old adage 2 wrongs dont make a right . Israel gets rockets fired in the city 10 killed Israel goes to Gaze kills 200 . Damn it Hamas and Israel if you want to fight fine kill the troops and militants leave the non combatants out of the war. Quit killing women and children killing them only fans the flames .

These people have been killing each other for generations . Every time there is a chance at peace one of you screws it up .

According to International Law when Party A hides within civilian population and does actions which compel Party B to perform valid military action against Party A. Any civilian deaths are the responsibility of Party A.

This is HAMAS game. They want everyone to think Israel is just as abusive as they are. HAMAS is using your values against you.

It is by HAMAS design that Israel kills civilians, and dont think for a second the Palestinians don't know it. These people aren't stupid like those of us in the West, who they play like a fiddle.

The Palestinian Authority and HAMAS have been training their youth to believe in Jihad and Shahadid. The way strict Islam treats women, the only way for a woman to get stature in the community is by wanting to become a killer or have children die in the attacks.

This is Palestinian Society. It didn't get this way under "occupation" it got this way under autonomy under the Oslo Accords.

Every time someone says "Ah, They both do it." Or blames Israel for responding to an attack they are creating incentives for HAMAS to ensure more innocents die.

IF the UN moved a group of people in my area set up that a new government Which then kicked me out of the home and farm that has been in my family for generations killed my wife and one of my kids then moved a new settler into my old family home you are darn right I would be mad. No one in his right mind woundnt be mad ! Now to kill innocent by standers to get back for that crime is just as wrong .

Wrong analogy.

What you have a giant empty lot from some past development that was torn down. Weeds and garbage everywhere. A few bums are laying around with their goats.

You come in, and track down who owns the parcels of land in the big lot. You start buying parcels for yourself and family and you come in and clean up the debris and start doing some basic landscaping.

You now need help with some routine chores, like dragging the garbage to the garbage bin thing a mile away, so you pay some of the bums cash to help you with your chores.

Other bums hear about this and they move to the non-sold parts of the empty lot with the other bums.

Then the Crips and Blood see you and they hate you, so unless you give them a cut of your business, you have to dismantle what you accomplished. Now the bums resent you and the gang bangers despise you , so the gang bangers pay the bums to break your windows every night. And when you get fed up and you confront the bum, the police always seem to be on their side because they get kickbacks.


But you own your place and you put a lot of work in and your'e not going to let these jerks push you out.

This is so reminiscent of what happened to the American Indians . The were penned them up and any resistance or up rising was met with extreme prejudice men women and babies killed not just the braves that did the acts . We literally starved some tribes into submission . The longest Walk is a good example. We were wrong then and Israel is Wrong now ! Segregation and starvation is wrong denial of medical care and killing of innocents is wrong on both sides .

Wrong again.. the Indians didn't practically stalk the Europeans did they?

The Arabs did so with the Jews. It was only beucase of what the Jews accomplished in terms of land development and economy did the Arabs move to Israel in the numbers they did.

Before Zionism, the entire area was desoluate. No one lived there in any significant number. There was no unique ethnicity or nationalialiy of "Palestinian"

When we had gang war fare in the 30s we threw both bosses in jail and killed or threw all the rank and file in jail as well .We continued doing that till the violence subsided . Is that what the UN will have to do to stop the madness ?

It seems we have 2 criminal elements fighting each other. Killing non combatants is a crime .

I bet every one wants peace but what will they give up for peace ? Will they share a little political power a little land will they give up the need for revenge and stop killing women and children . If neither side will give up killing non combatants then it will never end till one is utterly destroyed . As long as they both have political machines that are hell bent on the others destruction this will never end .And if neither side will give up killing innocent bystanders again this will never end . And supporting either side is contributing to the genocidal destruction of a culture .

I refuse to call the Jewish people "Criminal elements" and I certainly refuse to equate them with the Death Worshipers. The Jewish people are under considerable anguish because they value Life. Their religious law is all about human love and compassion. Why do you think so many Jews vote for Democrats even if the Democrats have a more hostile stance toward Israel.. because the Democrats purportedly value "Social Justice" which is a key trait of the Jews.

People in America will find out one day that when you have an enemy like this, an enemy that makes you choose... die or be more brutal than they are.


I choose aninihalting them. Don't forget the most important thing: If the Jews ever lose to the Arabs, the Arabs intend on destroying the Western World and will beleive it in their minds

Originally posted by VinceP1974

According to International Law when Party A hides within civilian population and does actions which compel Party B to perform valid military action against Party A. Any civilian deaths are the responsibility of Party A.

So its okay to kill women and children if they are any where near a combat zone in school or in their home, shopping or just playing being a kid ?

Originally posted by VinceP1974
It is by HAMAS design that Israel kills civilians, and dont think for a second the Palestinians don't know it. These people aren't stupid like those of us in the West, who they play like a fiddle.

I honestly believe both sides try to play the US like a fiddle .

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Wrong analogy.

What you have a giant empty lot from some past development that was torn down. Weeds and garbage everywhere. A few bums are laying around with their goats.

You come in, and track down who owns the parcels of land in the big lot. You start buying parcels for yourself and family and you come in and clean up the debris and start doing some basic landscaping.

Buying up lots from a farm that was taken from the original owners . Hey they wernt using it it was only Palestinians raising olives goats and children there.
Definably needs to be bought up and subdivided

Originally posted by VinceP1974

But you own your place and you put a lot of work in and your'e not going to let these jerks push you out.

Ah Um I think thats what the Palestinians were saying when they had their homes taken

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Wrong again.. the Indians didn't practically stalk the Europeans did they?

The point I was driving at is the segregation confining them to a reservation limiting their food and medical care supplies and forcing high unemployment on them helping create a destitute situation . Any time any violence happened they were killed at a rate of 20 to one and given even harsher treatment .

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Before Zionism, the entire area was desoluate. No one lived there in any significant number. There was no unique ethnicity or nationalialiy of "Palestinian"

Lack of development is a just cause to relieve to owners of the present property. And force them from their few home to encampments

Originally posted by VinceP1974
I refuse to call the Jewish people "Criminal elements" and I certainly refuse to equate them with the Death Worshipers. The Jewish people are under considerable anguish because they value Life. Their religious law is all about human love and compassion. Why do you think so many Jews vote for Democrats even if the Democrats have a more hostile stance toward Israel.. because the Democrats purportedly value "Social Justice" which is a key trait of the Jews.

I agree with you here My frustration is not with the people but with the political machines of both sides The average human being does not want to kill everyone . The political machines be it a government or a religion .

Adolf Hitler:What luck for the rulers that men do not think. : Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death. This from my sig ... politicians and the political machines have learned this lesson very well !

Originally posted by VinceP1974
People in America will find out one day that when you have an enemy like this, an enemy that makes you choose... die or be more brutal than they are.

I choose aninihalting them. Don't forget the most important thing: If the Jews ever lose to the Arabs, the Arabs intend on destroying the Western World and will beleive it in their minds

Personally I refuse to give up my humanity for any one My humanity and integrity no one can take from me unless i discard it .

And I do not I DO NOT think annihilating any race group creed or religion is right . If we continue this path we will either have one race creed and religion or we will blow our selves back the the stone age . We must figure out how to deviate from this destructive path . If not then first it will be wipe out the Palestinians then the Arabs then may be blacks or orientals next then Catholics or Baptists . Were does the killing and hatred stop ?

Originally posted by Lostinthedarkness


So its okay to kill women and children if they are any where near a combat zone in school or in their home, shopping or just playing being a kid ?

Yes it is. What is not ok is putting those people in danger by making that area a military target. Most sane societies don't launch missiles from the inside of people's houses.

Originally posted by VinceP1974
It is by HAMAS design that Israel kills civilians, and dont think for a second the Palestinians don't know it. These people aren't stupid like those of us in the West, who they play like a fiddle.

I honestly believe both sides try to play the US like a fiddle .

could have fooled me. You got the HAMAS talking points down hook line and sinker.

You side with an Islamic Supremacist Jihadi Group. They torture and slaughter anyone who is not them. Lets not pretend we're defending equals. You are defending the most evil force on the planet today.

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Wrong analogy.

What you have a giant empty lot from some past development that was torn down. Weeds and garbage everywhere. A few bums are laying around with their goats.

You come in, and track down who owns the parcels of land in the big lot. You start buying parcels for yourself and family and you come in and clean up the debris and start doing some basic landscaping.

Buying up lots from a farm that was taken from the original owners . Hey they wernt using it it was only Palestinians raising olives goats and children there.
Definably needs to be bought up and subdivided

There was no farming! THe land was completely devasted. I dont remember the details of this exactly but i think i remember reading that the landowners were not the local arabs anyway. they were turks or people from other areas of the old caliphate.

Before the Jews came back, the Land of Israel was dead.

Originally posted by VinceP1974

But you own your place and you put a lot of work in and your'e not going to let these jerks push you out.

Ah Um I think thats what the Palestinians were saying when they had their homes taken

Which is a lie. Between 48 and 67 Gaza was controlled by Egypt and West Bank by Jordan. There was no occupation. Why wasn';t there an occupation? Because the notion of Palestinian Nationalism wasn't concocted until the 1960s and the Arabs saw it as a good way to package their jihad to the West for the Useless Idiots.

There was no movement to free the land from Egypt and Jordan occupation.

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Wrong again.. the Indians didn't practically stalk the Europeans did they?

The point I was driving at is the segregation confining them to a reservation limiting their food and medical care supplies and forcing high unemployment on them helping create a destitute situation . Any time any violence happened they were killed at a rate of 20 to one and given even harsher treatment .

TJe only ones respoonsible for that are they themselves.
Did you know throughtout the 90s when they had a lot more freedom and billions of dollars flowing in, that they didn't even attempt to resettle the refugee camps that were inside the West Bank? The PA kept those people in the camps.

The Palestinians are brutalized by their own side to turn them into Jew Killers.

Originally posted by VinceP1974
Before Zionism, the entire area was desoluate. No one lived there in any significant number. There was no unique ethnicity or nationalialiy of "Palestinian"

Lack of development is a just cause to relieve to owners of the present property. And force them from their few home to encampments

There were no homes! No one lived there! Not until the Jews moved tehre did a lot of Arabs move there.

Originally posted by VinceP1974
I refuse to call the Jewish people "Criminal elements" and I certainly refuse to equate them with the Death Worshipers. The Jewish people are under considerable anguish because they value Life. Their religious law is all about human love and compassion. Why do you think so many Jews vote for Democrats even if the Democrats have a more hostile stance toward Israel.. because the Democrats purportedly value "Social Justice" which is a key trait of the Jews.

I agree with you here My frustration is not with the people but with the political machines of both sides The average human being does not want to kill everyone . The political machines be it a government or a religion .

Adolf Hitler:What luck for the rulers that men do not think. : Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death. This from my sig ... politicians and the political machines have learned this lesson very well !

When inhuman ruthless people fight you, eventually you become a little like that. You ahve to be or else you die. That is how the Spanish got to be the way they were, because of 600+ years of Muslim occupation.

The Arabs force the Jews to treat them harshly . The arabs put thier childern out to die.

Personally I refuse to give up my humanity for any one My humanity and integrity no one can take from me unless i discard it .

And I do not I DO NOT think annihilating any race group creed or religion is right . If we continue this path we will either have one race creed and religion or we will blow our selves back the the stone age . We must figure out how to deviate from this destructive path . If not then first it will be wipe out the Palestinians then the Arabs then may be blacks or orientals next then Catholics or Baptists . Were does the killing and hatred stop ?

I choose to be a realist.

The Pre-Islamic civilizations from Morocco to Indonesia probably thought the same as you. They're gone now. And all that is there is scores of clitoris mutilators and desert and getting on your knees 5 times and day and chanting Allah is Greatest.