Hi chaps!
Tim the Troll here.. I'll take that as a humerous appelation rather than an insult .. and note I did give my name in the text whilst prefering the anon. reply method offered.

Closing ranks and saying you've answered my points doesn't mean you have..
* many masons do treat it as their religion
* many masons do not go to church
* The Lost Keys of Freemasonry is a Masonic book and does say Satan's involved
* That masonic chaplain did reject praying with 'in the name of Jesus Amen' and no christian should do that
* The higher degrees do have a deity called Jahbulon - tell men that when the come to join at the first level and half of them probably would not!
* there are masonic prayers, funeral services, Bibles etc

Showing the love of God to eachother means sharing His teaching, do that by all means, but syncretism (all roads lead to god, all religions are valid etc) is not in the Bible at all. Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life" .. please have no problem with me going back to well used quotes if they are gospel truth.

You are free to be a mason but it's not compatable with Christianity.
The Church of England came to that conclusion in a report and you can read that and the reports of other mainstream denominations if you want to .. but I think some of your minds may be closed.

Peace to you,
Tim

The most fundamental issue I think involves Integrity, with a capital I.

As men, and I don't care WHO you are, we all lose integrity, relative to the wholeness and perfection, and holiness of God, and if the twin pillars represent on the one hand, justice, and on the other, mercy, then the stand is in Jesus Christ.

Like I said, all the work is complete in him, and all the mysteries of the ages is contained in him.

I just finished attending an intensive three day seminar called the Landmark Forum, which was very good and an excellent framework, but it finally ends, in a lie, namely, that life is empty and meaningless when placed within an unfolding present moment relative to an as yet unborn future realm of all possibility, and while that domain of uncertainty is a powerful place to get to, it invites the individual to consider HIMSELF the only one who can assign a meaning to life and in fact is compelled to do so at all times as nothing but a meaning creating "machine".

The only problems that I can tell in regards to Jesus as an expression of the infinite Godhead's action in our world, is one, the apparent exclusive nature of an all inclusive proposition, and two, the extent and the degree to which the resolution to the problem of human evil is curative, and therefore highly offensive to the pride of man.

More and more I can see that everything and all the treasure of heaven and the ancient mysteries and the wisdom of the ages resides in an effective appropriation of the meaning and import of the teachings and the work of Christ.

We are only just beginning to understand what it represents I believe, and so that is definitely the route I will take, and if I became a Mason, I would in effect steal their symbols and recast them in a Christian light, and I guess they'd have to kill me or something for spilling the beans and betraying their confidence.

However, in so far as I am convinced that all those mysteries have already been fully appropriated by Jesus' own interpretation, summed up on the cross and in actual resurrection life, then I'll just stick to that.

How Christian believers can get right into it however, is beyond me.

Even this Landmark Forum in effect involved a baptism into a type of experiencial death and resurrection - absent Christ, and I'm all but certian that the Masons do the same thing at the Third Degree even though most do not fully understand the meaning and the purpose of the ritual.

"Apart from me you can do nothing."



[edit on 12-1-2009 by OmegaPoint]

if I became a Mason, I would in effect steal their symbols and recast them in a Christian light

This is exactly what Freemasonry expects all Christian Masons to do.

Even this Landmark Forum in effect involved a baptism into a type of experiencial death and resurrection - absent Christ, and I'm all but certian that the Masons do the same thing at the Third Degree even though most do not fully understand the meaning and the purpose of the ritual.

Individual Masons are supposed to interpret the Third Degree in any way which is meaningful to themselves. Because every Mason has his own interpretation as to the meaning and purpose of the ritual, he must necessarily understand the purpose and meaning of the ritual, because he invented it.

This is, in fact, the very essence of Freemasonry, in the sense that the ritual affects every person in a deep and personal way, simply because it is he who decides the meaning of the ritual.

[edit on 12/1/2009 by Saurus]

Ok, here's a question.

Is there a fundamental joke at the end of it all? Does the entire framework dissolve into mirth, humour, and most importantly Love, in the final analysis?

Or are you supposed to continue to take it seriously?

Humour and Love - that's all that's left as far as I can tell at the "omegapoint" of illumination.

If that is lacking, a cosmic joke which keeps on being humourous, then Masonry might need me more than I need them, to bring them to awareness of the absurd futility of attempting to reveal a meaning and a purpose through the use of symbols.

I think the last laugh is at the expense of the devil within, and only then is true and authentic love really possible.


P.S. However, for Jesus, the great work which made this laughter possible, was no laughing matter for him. But he got his last laugh too I think, and laughs with me now, in truth and love!


[edit on 13-1-2009 by OmegaPoint]

The OP continues to pull people along by the strings. Like I said, he has no intention of joining and is here to preach about his enlightenment and how he won't join masonry.

The end is just the beginning of the end of one beginning and the beginning of a new one, and so the journey continues, and the ongoing discovery process for sure but the frame of reference changes.

I notice however that you didn't answer my question about humour and love ultimately disolving the framework, or at least inviting a brand new one, and one which doesn't take itself too seriously either.

"The kingdom of heaven is like a man who brings from his storehouse both something old and something new."

New wine into new wineskins - that kind of thing.

Maybe I'm not communicating it properly, but I'm thinking more along the lines of an empty space of new possibility occuring within an eternally unfolding and FORGIVEN present moment - one which invites playfulness and creativity. I am talking about complete freedom and liberation as in "Love and do as you will". Will under love - to invert Crowley's crap and put it back into its proper context.

If that aint there at the end of the indoctrination or initiation process, then no, I don't want any part of it.





[edit on 13-1-2009 by OmegaPoint]

I must admit that I've been using this conversation as a foil, even though I honestly did not have the agenda you're acusing me of from the outset.

I also need to apologize for casting dispersions upon something which I don't know about and do not have an experience of. That's absurd.

But, in truth, I was only wanting to share, yes, a way of looking at Christianity and the mysteries and maybe in the process to share some light, but I do not know with any certainty, that there is darkness there within the Masonic tradition.

Hey I even suggested that my God entered from part of that frame, and so I may be eternally grateful for those ancient mysteries which I am convinced that Jesus completed, and summed up within himself, as a model of civilized Godly leadership, and the true brotherhood of man.

Sometimes it's hard not to offend, where the best defence is a good offence.

But I do not need to defend Christianity against anything. just wanting to share something, which may be of the most profound importance and significance.

I've said whatever I needed to say. My apologies if I offended.

That said, I hope it's not too serious, that would be sad.

[edit on 13-1-2009 by OmegaPoint]

His monicur "lowlevelmason" is a ruse intended to decieve, so in effect, it's just a jab at newbies lack of understanding, so I guess their sense of humour is that of making fun of, as opposed to the kind of humour I was talking about, which is the capacity to laugh at one's self and at our tendency as human beings to assign a meaning to something which, by its very nature, is beyond the realm of our understanding. Takes one to know one I guess..

Originally posted by flyingunknown
Uhm, low-level-mason is a good name for you, because you know nothing about the freemasons, I suggest if you want to know about the freemason SOLOMON's TEMPLE connection, you ask a HIGH RANKING MASON, the few masons I have met were high ranking ones, one showed me his Mason Bible,

Actually the name low-level-mason is there to make fun of people like you who believe in it. There is no such thing as a high ranking mason, you've met regular masons just like all masons were. I also have - GASP - a MASON BIBLE. Which is nothing but the King James Version of the bible, with a front part for people to sign at raising and a few pages about symbolism. Its actually more like a Bible with a masonic cover. Oh goody, does that mean I get to be a high level mason now? I guess everyone does too, since its a common gift at the 3rd degree.

Originally posted by Revolution-2012
it was an old bible specifically made by the Masons, just the binding and pages before and after given as a gift, it was just a king james version, but inside were pictures of the early founding father masons, and interestingly enough a very detailed masonic drawing of Solomon's Temple, I mention the secret of secrets assuming it's common knowledge but I guess it's not, if you ask enough masons you'll eventually find one that knows what he's talking about, but like I said, it's such an old source, that most masons "forgot" or the information has been forgottton, considering the detailed masonic drawing of Solomon's temple was in the mason bible I randomly saw, I bet there are still masons today that know that it was the source of the ceremonies,

Um, hate to bust your bubble, but there are lots of people who knows all about the structure of Solomon's Temple - that would be because its in the bible. Its taught in Religious Studies 101 in colleges across America. Not a big deal.

The masonic degrees are ALLEGORIES, not based on fact. There is no historical relationship between freemasonry and King Solomon's Temple.

Originally posted by Revolution-2012
see I know for a FACT they are the same ceremonies, for purposes you know not, because I've studied the ceremonies at length, if anyone is trolling you'd be the one guilty, I know what I'm talking about, newb.

"newb"? How old are you, 10? Obviously you've failed to actually look at even one ritual, else you would know the FACT that its nothing more than a historical allegory. The REAL rituals that went on at King Solomon's Temple were religion rituals. Freemasonry is not a religion. We don't send masonic high priests into the holy of holies, we don't have inner and outer courts, we don't have priests, we have nothing of which to perform any REAL temple ritual and wouldn't because its not a religion. Its about applying the tools of masonry to life.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
His monicur "lowlevelmason" is a ruse intended to decieve, so in effect, it's just a jab at newbies lack of understanding, so I guess their sense of humour is that of making fun of, as opposed to the kind of humour I was talking about, which is the capacity to laugh at one's self and at our tendency as human beings to assign a meaning to something which, by its very nature, is beyond the realm of our understanding. Takes one to know one I guess..

Actually its a bit like naming yourself Santa Clause - he doesn't exist, and so anyone taking it seriously isn't being deceived, they are being ignorant. Nice try though, ultimately your attempt to bait and lure with your "I'm so enlightened but I already know everything and masonry is evil" attempt failed.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
His monicur "lowlevelmason" is a ruse intended to decieve, so in effect, it's just a jab at newbies lack of understanding, so I guess their sense of humour is that of making fun of, as opposed to the kind of humour I was talking about, which is the capacity to laugh at one's self and at our tendency as human beings to assign a meaning to something which, by its very nature, is beyond the realm of our understanding. Takes one to know one I guess..

Yeah well.. at least he don't add the letter 'U' in random places like 'humor'... AND he places I before E except after C, as in 'deceive'.

OK sorry that's lame but it's all I got right now.

If you're using European settings, spell-check actually changes humor to humour.

Originally posted by Saurus
If you're using European settings, spell-check actually changes humor to humour.

I wonder is it also has a self righteous setting. That would explain a great many things if that's what the OP used.

Ugh, here we see the holder of the pinnacle of idiocy name need not be mentioned.

Along side with him, be one or don't just don't continue this debate anymore everytime I see threads like these I bust out the excedrin.

Please please, there's no provable conspiracy behind the Masons, so if you wan't to go join some group with a bunch of hairy men be my guest.... But I'd much rather eat a hamburger at Hooters with my friends. =)