Debate :maths:

OK so i made this for a reason..

Been on ats for some time now reading this and that ect..


My gripe is how i come across.. Im trying to tell others maths is pointless as tool to ask questions..

Aliens
God
Whatever..

Can anyone prove to me maths is not just a tool? or a level of understanding.

And if so please provide proof..

I have my proof ready its called MATHS what is your trump card

Please flame And plase get mad over this becouse I do not know how to ask you guys to think about maths as just ONE of many tools..

And just to add maths is a logical system.. with inherrent flaws "pi" ect


incase you are lost in my grammer

maths is pointless as tool to ask questions..


Is it? or aint it.. and if its not why cant humans use maths to work out HOW WE GOT HERE..

Thank you

reply to post by theresult


Everything that we now invent, adjust, calculate, or figure out is all a mathematical equation.
Without Maths, we would have no true understanding of functional and dis-functional applications of every day life.
Why one would have to ask allows me to believe that the ask-er may just think they are more a computer than a human. Which by the way, with computers, is all based on "Mathematics" of the binary numbers of 0 & 1.

Didn't really know how to say what I wanted to say without a unprecedented amount of typing, so I found the following for you too research and assess your current understandings of maths importance to civilization as we know it.

Why study Mathematics?
The main reason for studying mathematics to an advanced level is that it is interesting and enjoyable. People like its challenge, its clarity, and the fact that you know when you are right. The solution of a problem has an excitement and a satisfaction. You will find all these aspects in a university degree course.
You should also be aware of the wide importance of Mathematics, and the way in which it is advancing at a spectacular rate. Mathematics is about pattern and structure; it is about logical analysis, deduction, calculation within these patterns and structures. When patterns are found, often in widely different areas of science and technology, the mathematics of these patterns can be used to explain and control natural happenings and situations. Mathematics has a pervasive influence on our everyday lives, and contributes to the wealth of the country.

www.popmath.org.uk...

Mathematics is considered to be the unified language of the cosmos. Everything can be explained with math. All science is based on both mathematics and alchemy. Everything you do can be calculated. Every problem you have can be persuaded or solved with logic (higher form of math). Everything you ever wanted to know somehow owes a tribute to mathematics. Even music and poetry use mathematics to devise tempo and rythmn.

So, you ask if it is a tool? Yes. You wish to compare it to a level of understanding. Of course it is. It is as much a part of the human life as the heart, mind or soul.

A little deeper we go. Math is a tool, yes. Faith is a tool as well. Religion is just as much a tool (often considered a crutch) as it is an integral part of some peoples lives. The same goes for math.

Math is also used in logic. If a is true + b being true, then c is true. Or is A true and B is false then C cannot be true. We use math in simple thought processes. When you are trying to add up information in an investagation, you keep going over everything up until everything adds up. It is the simplest and most nessacry of all skills. I see it first hand.

I live in a nursing home right now for rehab. There is this guy here who is a few years older than me (31). He has no concept of education. He can't read, write, or do math. He has the brain of 5 year old. You can see that he has no common sense and can't understand. It is because of basic lack of fundamental math. It is a sad in a way. He doesn't know what he is doing when he jumps to conclusions, or does what he does that gets on people's nerves. If he had an understanding of math (logic) he would be able to put things together in his mind. He would understand that when someone yells at him for yelling and carrying on that he should stop instead of keep being the mental child that he unfortunately is.

Another example that math is needed in you general life is in just the way you get around (drive, walk, bike, etc...) You brain, while you are in control of a vehicle or a bike just moving general. your brain has to use math to know when to slow down so you don't hit someone, or to make that turn, or to stop at a stop lite. Your brain is doing constant calculations in order to do these things and to do them well.

So you can see, math is an essential part of our everyday lives.

reply to post by theresult


result, you say that math is "pointless as a tool" but yet you base all of your theories around math (however hairbrained they may be). It is beyond frustration to know that you are 27, and your native language is English (which you told me yourself). Yet you still write how you do, it is completely unreadable. I beg of you, quit the games, if you admit to being a young kid, noones going to fault you. We are most likely going to respect you more for being honest about who you really are, and how you can in no way, write in a manner that is remotely acceptable. I understand that English people talk different than Americans do (I am an american). But the problem is, is that I have had contact for the last 4 or 5 years with Austrailians, and Brazillians. The Aussies know english, the Brazillians are horrible at speaking it (the ones I know) but I can still understand exactly what they are saying. Can you just please come clean, on every board you post, people are being confused by the way you speak, appeal to the greater good, tell us the truth.

reply to post by iwishicould


Im proving my point... Yes i do type realy crap.. and yes im 27 and iwishicould..Be better at it BUT IM NOT.

I do not go around saying things about english to anyone nore would I..

The Point of this thread as you will see is to point out why my Hairbrained ideas are infact very real..

and you are correct that i use maths as my pointless tool.. becouse YOU CAN NOT DEBUNK IT.. as shown above in better english than me..



Still wish to argue over my crappy grammer? or add to the post "maths"

My understanding of maths is higher than the level of your grammer can i help that? no i cant..; )

thankyou sir

Originally posted by iwishicould
reply to post by theresult

 

result, you say that math is "pointless as a tool" but yet you base all of your theories around math (however hairbrained they may be). It is beyond frustration to know that you are 27, and your native language is English (which you told me yourself). Yet you still write how you do, it is completely unreadable. I beg of you, quit the games, if you admit to being a young kid, noones going to fault you. We are most likely going to respect you more for being honest about who you really are, and how you can in no way, write in a manner that is remotely acceptable. I understand that English people talk different than Americans do (I am an american). But the problem is, is that I have had contact for the last 4 or 5 years with Austrailians, and Brazillians. The Aussies know english, the Brazillians are horrible at speaking it (the ones I know) but I can still understand exactly what they are saying. Can you just please come clean, on every board you post, people are being confused by the way you speak, appeal to the greater good, tell us the truth.

result, you say that math is "pointless as a tool" but yet you base all of your theories around math

I dont know if you read what I say or just flame me for using it and calling it pointless??

maths is flawed.. im showing you how and why it is using MATHS itself..

As this post shows.. its a very real thing.. I have been there befor with maths and if you ask anyone with an understanding of maths IT LOOPS it RELFECTS what? LIFE..

but is it the right tool for the job "what the job" what are we doing here?

Like i said befor you can not "can not" calculate why we are here.. dont you find that strange??

or "unlogical" ?

[edit on 6-1-2009 by theresult]

reply to post by Allred5923


Why study Mathematics?
The main reason for studying mathematics to an advanced level is that it is interesting and enjoyable. People like its challenge, its clarity, and the fact that you know when you are right. The solution of a problem has an excitement and a satisfaction. You will find all these aspects in a university degree course.
You should also be aware of the wide importance of Mathematics, and the way in which it is advancing at a spectacular rate. Mathematics is about pattern and structure; it is about logical analysis, deduction, calculation within these patterns and structures. When patterns are found, often in widely different areas of science and technology, the mathematics of these patterns can be used to explain and control natural happenings and situations. Mathematics has a pervasive influence on our everyday lives, and contributes to the wealth of the country.


I loved reading that why?

Mathematics is about pattern and structure; it is about logical analysis, deduction, calculation within these patterns and structures. When patterns are found, often in widely different areas of science and technology, the mathematics of these patterns can be used to explain and control natural happenings and situations.

And i found a patten.... maths is a patten..

that is my point here .. IT LOOPS on itself.. so how Are we ment to ask the big question using something that loops?

Ironic it took me this long to work this stupid problem out.. ok well 20 years still a long time tho

Thats why i said maths is useless... Yes it works But not all the time.. Why? Becouse there is something ABOVE maths.. maths even tells you that.. cant you see it?

Originally posted by theresult
Is it? or aint it.. and if its not why cant humans use maths to work out HOW WE GOT HERE..

Thank you

Okay, I'll give this one a go. English is my thing, Maths most definately is not. I spent my entire school life struggling with my maths lesson, however patient the teacher or how frustrated I made them, I could not comprehend anything beyond simple sums. I was always in the lowest stream/class for maths and when it came to my GCSEs (UK examinations at age 16) I failed miserably, when I went to sixth form (16-18 A-Levels) I was forced to retake, and failed again, in fact I got a worse grade. Up until I was about 30 I never found any need for maths, beyond those simple sums, I did stats as part of my job, but that isn't exactly rocket science, I'm bright enough to know how to use a calculator. It was therefore only when I tried to explain the other stuff, life, the universe etc that I found I was lacking. Though without knowing it. It was only when I started to look at those things that I realised I needed to understand maths in order to understand that. Sort of.

But, I still can't do maths. I cannot and do not know how to work out complex equations, I don't think I ever will, just looking at algebraic equations breaks me out in a sweat, but I do comprehend the beauty of it. That most likely doesn't make sense. Due to my lack of understanding of maths, I studied the history of mathematics, I instead let others paint a picture for me that I could understand. I found in that way, that it filled me with emotion (for want of a better term), not the panic that had previously confronted me, but a real sense of joy. The Golden Ratio, Fibbonacci's sequence, Vitruvian proportions of architecture...etc etc. When I saw that mathematics was everything, the language that the universe speaks many other things, for me, fell into place. I still have much, much more to learn though.

If mathematics is a tool it is one that I don't know how to use, but in the feeling that mathematics is a language, one that I may not speak but am a construct of, then for me it does help to explain all that is. It helps, I do not claim to have the answers.

My brother who was a very talented mathematician, once said to me, that maths is better than sex. It has taken me many years to understand that, but now I have some sense of what he means, regrefully (or not depending on your perspective) he devoted himself to the latter, short term gain over long term devotion.

The book I read that started it all, was The Poetry of the Universe by Robert Ossermann. I didn't understand that very well to begin with, but it set me on the way and I recommend it to anyone who like me struggles with the fundamentals. I don't have too much difficulty explaining, to myself, I have nay ability to explain it to others, life, god, ailens and the such like. I may be very wrong, but that is part of it, but I never thought that I would find mathematical concepts exciting, but I do, very.

[edit on 6-1-2009 by KilgoreTrout]

Originally posted by theresult

Can anyone prove to me maths is not just a tool? or a level of understanding.

And if so please provide proof..

maths is pointless as tool to ask questions..

Thank you

Without simple arithmetic, you wouldn't be able to debate/share your question/conclusion with thousands of other people.

I take it you have no education in physics, because math is used to answer many questions that relate to what we observe and many times can not yet observe. For instance, it was math that told us that anti-particles, neutrinos, black holes, and other structures existed before they were observed.

The questions you seem to be asking are metaphysical in nature so do no necessarily apply to the realm of science or mathematics.

You don't seem to have any mathematical knowledge beyond simple algebra, my friend. It's premature to judge the usefulness or nature of mathematics until you can understand it.

You're simply judging the book by it's cover.

Originally posted by logician magician

Originally posted by theresult

Can anyone prove to me maths is not just a tool? or a level of understanding.

And if so please provide proof..

maths is pointless as tool to ask questions..

Thank you

Without simple arithmetic, you wouldn't be able to debate/share your question/conclusion with thousands of other people.

I take it you have no education in physics, because math is used to answer many questions that relate to what we observe and many times can not yet observe. For instance, it was math that told us that anti-particles, neutrinos, black holes, and other structures existed before they were observed.

The questions you seem to be asking are metaphysical in nature so do no necessarily apply to the realm of science or mathematics.

You don't seem to have any mathematical knowledge beyond simple algebra, my friend. It's premature to judge the usefulness or nature of mathematics until you can understand it.

You're simply judging the book by it's cover.

Point one here.. why would i ask you this question ??

Without simple arithmetic, you wouldn't be able to debate/share your question/conclusion with thousands of other people.

Point 2

You don't seem to have any mathematical knowledge beyond simple algebra, my friend.

and yet its based on the very same thing as 1+1 or didnt you take that lesson? i know i did..

You seem to want to prove somehow this is all some magic trick mr logical.. well im sorry but maths for me is my egg and im the chicken..

Understand why i made this post.. ? now go find my other posts on the very same subject..

or shall i bore you all day long with stuff you wont understand? lets look at this in more detail..

Quatom theroy
M theory
String theory
My theory "cell theroy"

All based on maths... I asked my question becouse I want proof that what you say is BASED ON mathmatics.. yes its pointless but it is needed..

read not what i say but what others say ... and read my other threads..

Its amazing how blind some people are to the understanding of maths and the question i just asked..

I was just called a hoaxer on another thread so flame away... lol

I hoax maths how classic is that!

reply to post by logician magician


and just to add I have a question for you

can we calculate how we got here??

can we calculate god?

...... have fun in PI land

Yes, our mathematics is just a tool, and has limitations.

Transcendental numbers still can't be predicted indefinitely by any known algorithms, despite people trying for decades if not centuries. That includes pi.

Even calculus must be either formally incomplete, or inconsistent. This was proven by a famous German mathematician named Godel in the early 1900's.

Calculus, or any formal system that allows recursion, can be forced to assert a statement that defies conventional logic and appears to contradict itself. The theorem basically states "this theorem is not a theorem," unraveling calculus completely simply by playing with self-reference. This is like the "seam" that couldn't be made invisible.

Maths are extremely useful tools, but yes, they are fallible and are simply tools. Not an end-all to explaining the entire universe or anything like that.


Materialists cling hard to maths and like to think of them as always rigorous, consistent, and objective (when used correctly), when we really don't know those things are true, and in fact can contradict them.

Your sense of "I," your ego, is also a self-defining, self-referencing and self-comparing program that constantly runs in your head, according to AI researcher and Pulitzer prize-wining author Douglas Hofstadter. If any of you saw that recent news thread where researchers showed that the "spiritual" part of the brain is also the part that is self-defining and associated with your ego, it should give you pause. When the part of the brain that defines "you" is quieted, you tend to become more spiritual. For thousands of years spiritual philosophies have been emphasizing the same thing, emphasizing relenting your desires and selfish habits.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Yes, our mathematics is just a tool, and has limitations.

Transcendental numbers still can't be predicted indefinitely by any known algorithms, despite people trying for decades if not centuries. That includes pi.

Even calculus must be either formally incomplete, or inconsistent. This was proven by a famous German mathematician named Godel in the early 1900's.

Calculus, or any formal system that allows recursion, can be forced to assert a statement that defies conventional logic and appears to contradict itself. The theorem basically states "this theorem is not a theorem," unraveling calculus completely simply by playing with self-reference. This is like the "seam" that couldn't be made invisible.

Maths are extremely useful tools, but yes, they are fallible and are simply tools. Not an end-all to explaining the entire universe or anything like that.


Materialists cling hard to maths and like to think of them as always rigorous, consistent, and objective (when used correctly), when we really don't know those things are true, and in fact can contradict them.

Your sense of "I," your ego, is also a self-defining, self-referencing and self-comparing program that constantly runs in your head, according to AI researcher and Pulitzer prize-wining author Douglas Hofstadter. If any of you saw that recent news thread where researchers showed that the "spiritual" part of the brain is also the part that is self-defining and associated with your ego, it should give you pause. When the part of the brain that defines "you" is quieted, you tend to become more spiritual. For thousands of years spiritual philosophies have been emphasizing the same thing, emphasizing relenting your desires and selfish habits.

one thing stuck out my ego... mm now what is my ego?

You see for me my ego is just one number in some snipedup calculation...

why can i say that? becouse we use mathmatics.. I mean its everything right?? lol no its not..

What im pointing out here is that the very question you and i ask is flawed .. not becouse the question is wrong but the tools we use to ask it are!

Think of it this way.. you was ment to ask a stupid question.. to get the real answer.. aka Q physics..

understnad it not question it... for questions loop understanding is a road you follow...

hope that helps

Hello again results,

one thing stuck out my ego... mm now what is my ego?
You see for me my ego is just one number in some snipedup calculation...
why can i say that? becouse we use mathmatics.. I mean its everything right?? lol no its not..

When I read that statement, it became clear that you are confusing two different kinds of physics. What you pertain to here is not a "Maths" problem, it is a "Metaphysical" situation.
Realities are altered with the realization of the inability to change out come and expectation.
Look at it this way results, lets say you have no money, you are starving to death and have no roof over your head. The "Metaphysical" state kicks in and your mind starts to wonder on solutions to your particular dilemmas and you start thinking things like "Rob a store/bank/burglarise, just plain steal to get what you need." After you start "Thinking of things of this nature, you figure you have it all figured out, the problem with your "Decisions" is that you didn't think of the ramifications of such acts, you know "Getting caught, prison, insanasylum or death" and there is where the whole thought process should of taken place, not the other way around. If a person (Don't care who it is) takes the primary thoughts of their minds eye and plays out the out come of the thoughts scenarios, it will become clear that there are many out comes, but at least they did not make "Your" reality different, you allowed yourself "Self Analysis" of a "Not yet reality" thought process. And that is the way a "Good" thinker stays away from drastic realities and regrettable choices.

What im pointing out here is that the very question you and i ask is flawed .. not becouse the question is wrong but the tools we use to ask it are!

My questions are not flawed, they are my inquiries of interpretation of the truths, why? because I don't know without input of the sought after knowledge or questions.
The question you ask above is a perfect example of how the "Correct way of Thinking" comes to it's "Metaphysical" reality with your nonacceptance of something that is "Already" a reality for the rest of the given planet, "Think before you speak, and question yourself before you think."

Think of it this way.. you was ment to ask a stupid question.. to get the real answer.. aka Q physics..

There are "NO" stupid questions, there are only questions that need answers.
Your analogy of the Q Physics may be practical for life as we know it, but it is impractical to think you have a "Higher than light" answer to waver what is most persons reality this very day.
"Do you know what date it is today?, Do you know what your watch reads right now?, Do you think you can tell the future?" You can't even assume any of those things without the inevitable power of "MATH", and you are going to have to change your theory, as a fellow ATSer, it would be in your best interest for seeking truth in this knowledge.

understnad it not question it... for questions loop understanding is a road you follow...
hope that helps

I will most definitely question your "Hair brained Theory", why? "Because you are undeniably wrong! As I said above, "You can't tell what the future holds, but you can deal with it as it comes. Correctly and rationally."
And for the road I fallow? well, it is the road I have to create for it to be a nice smooth ride or a really rocky one, and you have a real big step a head of you to allow yourself the attitude that "You Are Wrong" with your self absorbed explanations of what mathematics really is and means for our species.

And you can't help anybody else results, because you seem to be unable to even help yourself correctly and "Realistically" , you are stuck in a "Train Of Thought" and it is only yours, with the ludacris thought that you could bring anything "Awe-Inspiring" to a conversation would allow me to believe that you are borderline, (If not already) Narcissistic.

Better start thinking of "Consequence's" before firing those mental "Synapse's" of the brain, and by the way , "Doctors have equated them as well!!"

reply to post by theresult


i read, and try to understand every word that you have written on ATS, and it is impossible. You have never given any proof of anything bieng real, only that you claim it to be real, dont you see that it doesnt make sense? I ask you how you came about to this conclusion of 1+1=3, you dont even attempt to explain it, you just say "it is truth! cant you see?" and by you saying 1+1= 3 after you add yourself, you realize that by adding your self you throw another 1 into the equation right? so 1+1+1=3. It is frustrating beyond compare to ask for an explanation, then to be treated like a dog, not worthy of an explanation. You have yet to explain anything you have said, only that it is the truth, and you wont tell us how you come to this conclusion. I'm not flaming you for being on here, I dont care if your on ats or not, Im merely aggravated by wanted answers and being made to feel that I am lesser than you. I beleive we are all equal, but result, I know in my heart of hearts, that you are just messing with the community on ATS, if you typed bad, you wouldnt have the horrible grammer, you wouldnt have the insane spelling errors. You would just type slower, that is all. I feel the need to know you, to know how your mind works, because right now, I cant tell if your a mental deficiant or a genius.

You can't tell what the future holds, but you can deal with it as it comes. Correctly and rationally."


Did i say this? No u assumed it.. I do not confuse 2 types of phisics becouse there is only one.. lol

I knew i was going to be flamed alot for what i say and its all good but let me point out afew things..

One I do use maths..
Two I do not say I am right I say read maths books and study nature and science just as the rest do..

I Cant tell the future Nore do i care about it or god or whatever..

I do not impose my Thoughts of mathmatics on others i mearly put my thoughts Of it "mathmatics" for others to think about..

Its called a theory.. based on what? MATHMATHICS

Just like string theory "or is that being narccistic aswell?

Or maybe M therory is that being crazy?

Or maybe who cares what i think about anything as you stated

Im totaly wrong and you are totaly right correct?

reply to post by iwishicould


you never read

You ask me how did i get 1+1=3 and i have told you MANY TIMES...

i added me.. why would i add me??? Becouse I am the one doing the mathmatics... and i was thinking outside that dumbo box like many do...

So sue me? lol

Why did i add me into mathmatics? becouse no one has done this befor with mathmatics.. only used it to view OTHER THINGS we never use it on ourselfs much.. well other than measurments.. ect

I used it to add me into the equation of understanding life.. and like the chap above you says i confuse the 2..

HOW? how can i confuse maths with being alive? there BOTH one of the same thing..

In order to use maths one needs to be alive first... how simple does it get?

theresults,

"Show me your theory as an "Example" of your "Personal" beliefs. And please explain what you are perpetuating at this "Redundant" stage of conversation."

yeah hopefully they will have maths books when i do get locked up

or burnt on a stake ....