Destiny vs. Free Will, page 3

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reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 05:56 PM by badmedia

Originally posted by redled
If I shuffle cards like I like and you like you like and we take turns, it will end up so chaotic as to make it to the questioner, random.

But they aren't random. They feel where they logically would. It is only our limited perception of not knowing how they would fall that provides the illusion of it being random. These cards still fall into the laws of actions and reactions. If you knew this information and where each card was, then you would be able to know exactly where each card was.

You can take a 52 card deck and they will pretty much be random to me to the end of the deck. Take someone who can count cards, and by the end of the deck they will be able to predict the next card with better accuracy. Entire reason casino's use mulitple decks and shuffle often, so that people can't do this.

Even though they aren't truly random numbers, I generate random numbers all time for computer programs. Sure they are predictable in themselves, but the person using the program won't be able to predict it, so it still works and seems random.

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 05:56 PM by theresult

reply to post by rekar

ok let me help you out on this...

You sir are the choice.. You being here is set in stone.. becouse you are You are my proof..

Now with that said what is destiny? well i can asure you ur going to pass on.. passon were who knows but hey i was born and i will die.. just life a leaf on a tress

there is only now.. stop worrying about the loop.. becouse you wont find it just like neo vs the computer..

neo and the computer are the same thing a loop

You realy need to look into PI and what it realy means..

At yourself into PI ie +1 and it no longer becomes a pi it becomes a path or a road..

You need to step back from the loop to see it kinda thing.. I found this out just using mathamatics and thats why i know its flawed becouse its only a level of unerstanding.. "my prison"..

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 05:57 PM by Spiramirabilis

reply to post by rekar

not sure if you're asking me - but yes, I guess I am

Buddy 3 says there are multiple destinies, each which can be chosen using your Free will as he would call it. Each choice leads to a different Destiny, and there are 100s of different choices.

if we're looking at the board, there are different options - but those options aren't going to change in number, so - fate

our reaction to any one possibility is undecided - free will

but free will will only permit you to choose from existing fates - even that number of possibilities would be finite - but since we can't comprehend the numbers involved - it's going to feel infinite

I guess I believe it's possible to have more than one destiny - and still believe in destiny

I'm pretty sure that there are math people who want to smack me hard in the head right now - I'm not skilled in that area

and there are also people who think there's no free will - still don't get that one

it seems obvious to me

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 05:59 PM by badmedia

Originally posted by theresult
reply to post by redled

do you know how to play cards? its all based on maths.. jeez

Yes i could use the 13 numbers as u pointed out but that gives rise to more posiblitys..

More numbers you have the more outcomes you have ok?

So you dont worry about the 13 whatever.. you worr about the comman lowsert number / outcome..

red or black...

try it the next time you play black jack or just get a deck of cards and guess what the next colour will be.. red or black?

I know my next hand if i can guess what your colour cards are

its a mathamatical real thing.. or did i miss something in class?

I play cards, I have cash accounts on both pokerstars and fulltilt. I know all about playing odds and such. But again, it is only our limited knowledge that makes these things appear random. In reality, they are not.

Part of having free will is the ability to give it away. And you do this when you play cards. What keeps you from knowing the next color of the card? Because you willingly play with it face down, just so you can create the illusion, chance and so on you keep talking about.

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:01 PM by rekar

Im pretty sure everyone here knows how to play cards, and has been to a math class higher than algebra 1, heh. Explain to us this math system you are using to determine Destiny, the universe, and this basic need for playing cards just for the fun of using math. It would be Impractical to be calculating every possible choice in a game of cards, and the one with the highest percentile of success... Thats not very logical, its not a life or death situation to use math to determine the possibilities here....

I can see your hell bent on math math math.... Explain how you came to conclusion math is God(no offense). That is almost what it seems like you are trying to get at here, and Im just trying to understand this from your point.

rekar

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:03 PM by redled

Originally posted by theresult
reply to post by redled

Im still new here.. !! but one of the things you said was that im saying maths is correct "nothing over rules maths"

No, it's not that, it's if maths points it a cropper, it's rarely wrong. There are too many examples of an oversimplified model 'proving' maths right, see John Nash asnd the Rand corporation. Hardrvie at work again.... see you in a min.

Im not saying that atlat.. Im trying to prove that maths is just a state of mind.. not a thing

It's a subjective objectivisation that has tremendous predictive power.

Its hard to put into words sometimes.. becouse im crap at english..

I use maths on itself.. I proves that maths is just one level of thinking.. nothing more.. we as humans are not logical to see the next level becouse we still use mathmatics.. "it loops" ie goes NOWHERE.. how can we get to a place we want to be at using a system that gives us NO clear way to getting to the end?

The Germans used maths to prove that the Jews needed to be killed. The maths was perfect. The assumptions were, well, based on hatred? F secure again.

Like a guy said befor its like being on a road.. maths is a ring road..

keep driving.. and you will end up in the same place..

Use a map, they are mathematically derived.

Thats why aliens are wizzing about... there on the motorway ... as we dullets go round and around..

If aliens are bobbing around the place, they understand maths and physics better than us for sure.

I know you are fresh on this, but some people have better bodies of knowledge than you in certain areas and you are better off trying to question them than stick two fingers up at them. I have a top degree in maths, my speciality is infinity which few even in maths dare to take on and this is quite irritating. You need to understand that maths cannot say 'this is true of humanity.' but it can say something is false. The mathematical model is the most simple, so when that falls down there is no model, but maths cannot explain behaviour beyond itself. I cannot relate any more.

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:03 PM by theresult

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by redled
If I shuffle cards like I like and you like you like and we take turns, it will end up so chaotic as to make it to the questioner, random.

But they aren't random. They feel where they logically would. It is only our limited perception of not knowing how they would fall that provides the illusion of it being random. These cards still fall into the laws of actions and reactions. If you knew this information and where each card was, then you would be able to know exactly where each card was.

You can take a 52 card deck and they will pretty much be random to me to the end of the deck. Take someone who can count cards, and by the end of the deck they will be able to predict the next card with better accuracy. Entire reason casino's use mulitple decks and shuffle often, so that people can't do this.

Even though they aren't truly random numbers, I generate random numbers all time for computer programs. Sure they are predictable in themselves, but the person using the program won't be able to predict it, so it still works and seems random.

You hit the nail on the head in many ways.. you make code based on logic that generates odd numbers but the user does not see this becouse the program to them is logical..

What we fail to understand as humans is Logic an elogic are both the same thing..

In a very stupid a simple way let me state this:

Math is our understanding of life "we map it with maths" Maths tells humans we have symmerty "we even see it in life" so ? something has to have a ying to a yang right?

what is maths ying? if maths is yang? ELOGIC... how the hell can we map understand something we dont?

who said we needed to? just +1 into every odd thing we know.. why?

becouse Im here doing it.. now everything makes more sens !

very crazy but even more crazy is i can prove it lol

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:10 PM by theresult

reply to post by redled

The mathematical model is the most simple, so when that falls down there is no model, but maths cannot explain behaviour beyond itself. I cannot relate any more.

Ok lets look at this more... mathamatical model? as in what? what is the model? life?>>

You leave out key things ... FALLS DOWN from what? no model?

but maths cannot explain behaviour beyond itself

This is asking WHO IS GOD WHAT IS GOD

same question ... why? you may be good at maths but you dont UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS...

I can debate you on this in more detail if you so wish.. I can prove what i say using your flawed little tool called maths...

Maths is a mind game.. a mind void of anthing other than loops.. open your mind and ditch maths..something came befor it.. or is above it. thats my level of thinking or shall i leave you with maths while you caluculate loops all day long..

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:13 PM by rekar

reply to post by theresult

Wait, how can we be logical and Illogical at the same time, I dont see how this would work out. Even Mathematically I dont see this one being possible. Understand your logic..

Destiny can be seen as a Point that has been defined that WILL happen no matter what you do, and cant be changed. Free Will is a place with no pre-defined ending, meaning every choice you make gets you a different ending.

Explain how math would be intertwined in this model, I dont see where we can throw it in, unless we get very sophisticated, and Im not up to going into very much detail at 4 in the morning, hehe.

rekar

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:15 PM by theresult

reply to post by badmedia

we play cards becouse we love to guess..

and win!

Its all maths do i care when i play cards? Nope i lose or i win its the FUN of the game..

Lets not think this card game is not logical or could not be worked out in maths becous it can.. why? becoue we have paramaters. that are set already

they are called cards.. we know the answer to the question we just dont bother understanding what it is telling you / me

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:21 PM by redled

Originally posted by theresult
reply to post by redled

The mathematical model is the most simple, so when that falls down there is no model, but maths cannot explain behaviour beyond itself. I cannot relate any more.

Ok lets look at this more... mathamatical model? as in what? what is the model? life?>>

You leave out key things ... FALLS DOWN from what? no model?

but maths cannot explain behaviour beyond itself

This is asking WHO IS GOD WHAT IS GOD

same question ... why? you may be good at maths but you dont UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS...

I can debate you on this in more detail if you so wish.. I can prove what i say using your flawed little tool called maths...

Maths is a mind game.. a mind void of anthing other than loops.. open your mind and ditch maths..something came befor it.. or is above it. thats my level of thinking or shall i leave you with maths while you caluculate loops all day long..

Yeah, good semantics. But we tend to need to equate hours, money, you know stuff. Get a decent grounding in this before you come at me with your wierd little trips. Most forms of action require parity. Yes, it is subjective as said before but it is more objective than your spouting crap.

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:22 PM by theresult

reply to post by rekar

ok this is silly..

maths is a system of thought / understanding... its a reflection of what we know..

how can we be both? well you asked the question didnt you?

It gave arise to the paramaters of it.. "the universe" Gave You the reason to ask what you do...

ask it what? were did i come from? who made me?? all POINTLESS

maths is and will be our level of understanding for a long time ... war is maths

we are at war with our own Bleeping question....

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:24 PM by theresult

reply to post by redled

spout crap? what crap am i spouting?

Do you not like the fact i prove others wrong using stupid maths?

sorry to offend you sir

the world is flat keep walking im sure you will fall off...

do you see what im saying here?

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:28 PM by theresult

Originally posted by rekar
reply to post by theresult

Wait, how can we be logical and Illogical at the same time, I dont see how this would work out. Even Mathematically I dont see this one being possible. Understand your logic..

Destiny can be seen as a Point that has been defined that WILL happen no matter what you do, and cant be changed. Free Will is a place with no pre-defined ending, meaning every choice you make gets you a different ending.

Explain how math would be intertwined in this model, I dont see where we can throw it in, unless we get very sophisticated, and Im not up to going into very much detail at 4 in the morning, hehe.

rekar

Wait, how can we be logical and Illogical at the same time,

why are you here? same question...

does life make sens? or you going to totaly blow my mind here and tell me it does..

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:31 PM by rekar

Ok, I see you are getting angry. Please dont drive from the subject at hand. We are just asking to explain your logic. Its a simple question really. we dont understand how you are saying everything is math. You arent giving any evidence or providing any theories with any type of backing to it. That may be why we are lost in thought right now when we are looking at your posts.

Im not trying to be silly, just logical. Im asking how you can come to the conclusion math is God(again, no offense). A=b, and b=c, then a=the Almighty? i dont see how C is the almighty one.... really I dont....

Just saying explain yourself thoroughly here. I provided a good subject of conversation, trying to spice up the forums, not have a peeing contest, or to infringe on another beliefs and bring them down.

rekar

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:36 PM by redled

Originally posted by theresult
reply to post by redled

spout crap? what crap am i spouting?

Do you not like the fact i prove others wrong using stupid maths?

sorry to offend you sir

the world is flat keep walking im sure you will fall off...

do you see what im saying here?

Yeah, I'll keep on walking until I curl round the globe of the world. You think maths is stupid, I look at practitioners like you. I'm not offended any more I was a few posts back, but you sure will never end up in the final reckoning, unless it is your judgement.

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:37 PM by rekar

reply to post by theresult

Why am I here, well its a simple answer really.... cell division. Osmosis, Mitosis, and all those other nice cellular functions required to develop in the human body. Im here in this physical body to provide the Earth with something it didnt have before, as the same are you. We are here to learn. That is why we are here.

That is logical, there is a point behind being here.

rekar

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:40 PM by theresult

Originally posted by rekar
Ok, I see you are getting angry. Please dont drive from the subject at hand. We are just asking to explain your logic. Its a simple question really. we dont understand how you are saying everything is math. You arent giving any evidence or providing any theories with any type of backing to it. That may be why we are lost in thought right now when we are looking at your posts.

Im not trying to be silly, just logical. Im asking how you can come to the conclusion math is God(again, no offense). A=b, and b=c, then a=the Almighty? i dont see how C is the almighty one.... really I dont....

Just saying explain yourself thoroughly here. I provided a good subject of conversation, trying to spice up the forums, not have a peeing contest, or to infringe on another beliefs and bring them down.

rekar

You are correct im angry and i do say sorry

its very hard for my poor brain to put all this into context "i do try".. in a civil manner..

without a flame or anything.. Here is my logic and understanding of life.. or what the topic is about "fate ect"

I look at the matrix film just like we all did "great film"

But when i was a kid "about seven" I looked up at the stars "goofy" and wanted to understand wtf was i doing here.. as we all do..

so how could i seek my question? how could i understand me? I used maths.. why? well everything i knew "read in books" was maths.. I seen it in nature.. i see it all over the place..

one thing struck me tho.. why do i use maths as my tool to understand the universe.. so i began to question maths istelf as an enterty... it being "something" rather than me using it unwittinglingy..

If you apply mathmathics to mathmatics ie logic its says Im not logical...

It tells you itself.. maths tells you Hey im a loop great you found me move along..But humans dont move along.. they keep asking stupid things

Via maths..

Im not god i dont know it all but i know what maths is and its a thought a reason a road water finding its own way..

we are stuck on maths becouse thats our nature..

The universe is more odd than we can think infact the oddness is more than we can..

i put my spin on that

Bounded by the limits of ones understanding... ie Maths..

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:45 PM by theresult

Originally posted by redled

Originally posted by theresult
reply to post by redled

spout crap? what crap am i spouting?

Do you not like the fact i prove others wrong using stupid maths?

sorry to offend you sir

the world is flat keep walking im sure you will fall off...

do you see what im saying here?

Yeah, I'll keep on walking until I curl round the globe of the world. You think maths is stupid, I look at practitioners like you. I'm not offended any more I was a few posts back, but you sure will never end up in the final reckoning, unless it is your judgement.

I know maths is stupid becouse we still ask stupid questions...

You prove im right not me.. Im just showing you the proof..

its not my fault one can not accept he is flawed.. based on maths.. that is flawed..

How can you ask a question you do not know you you are asking??

Thats the question here.. with maths you have paramaters like i said befor.. and if you can prove me wrong instead of going in loops then im happy to debate you

reply posted on 5-1-2009 @ 06:48 PM by theresult

reply to post by rekar

Please feel free to look up my cell theroy on ats>...

You see maths is the key to understanding the next level but it wont tell you what it is... becouse thats nots maths job

Think of maths more of a guid then you get the idea..

DNA vs maths...