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Destiny vs. Free Will

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posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:15 PM
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reply to post by mrwupy
 




Predestiny and free will are actually two perfectly compatible subjects.


the way I look at it is pretty close to what you just said

it's like playing a board game - like monopoly

there's the board - it's full of choices - but limited, set

then the dice - no matter what you get when you roll - it's one choice out of a set amount of possibilities

and the cards - again - different possibilities - but a set number

even if you worked out all the possible outcomes between those three - there's a finite number of possibilities

but whether or not you decide to buy Baltic Avenue or put a house on Park Place - that's up to you




posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:19 PM
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So, are you going along with buddy 3 saying there is more than one 'destiny'? I dont see how that could be a wrong answer, but what you said also could be the same thing, but using a game in place.

rekar



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by rekar
Explain how Randomness doesnt give you Free Will...


Randomness suggests no control at all. People consistently associate this issue with moral responsibility, so lets add randmoness in that domain...

Man: Hello John, how are you?

John: internal monologue: [this is my friend -> say hello back -> (random intervention) -> must kill friend]

John kills friend. Is he morally responsible for such a random neural influence? Was John in control of his ship? Perhaps he should blame Schrodinger's cat for the murder.

Is that the sort of thing you mean by 'free will'?



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by melatonin
Randomness provides no ability for free will. Determinism is suggested to also provide no place for true free will.


Do the tracks free the train, or do the tracks enslave the train? I'd suggest that the tracks merely provide the illusion of freedom, as soon as the train makes a choice to leave the tracks and go in a different direction, the train will see that it is not free at all.

The only way free will can exist is if all possibilities exist. The moment a possibility doesn't exist is the moment free will is gone.

And in the universe, all possibilities DO exist. All there side by side. It is only our limited perception that keeps us from seeing them, but quantum physics is somewhat getting there.

Everytime you make a choice, you are shifting and changing dimensions. Time itself is nothing more than the change of 1 dimension to another. It appears linear only in our perspective, because we experience it in a linear way. But you are constantly changing dimensions. We just see ourselves as being on those tracks.

Right this second, instead of being in the dimension where you are reading my words, you could easily be in the dimension where you are watching TV. 2 possibilities, 2 dimensions. Because these are just thoughts. The only thing that produces something from nothing is conscious thought.

If you look at the linear path you have taken thus far, then it very much can seem as though you can't escape your "fate/destiny". But when you look at the possibilities of what the future may hold, then you can start to see your own free will, and start to change the direction of that linear time. Now, was it fate that you would do so all along? Possibily - all things must be possible. But in reality, it's just a matter of perspection.

I subscribe to free will rather than fate/destiny because I prefer not to take on the role of the victim. Fate and destiny is IMO to play the role of the victim, where as free will puts you in the role of responsibility for your actions - reaping what you have sown.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by melatonin
 


lol now that was class !!

Ah i like it reminds me of my sig xD



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by theresult
reply to post by redled
 


Sorry didnt mean to be rude :| and yes im often called a F***wit


Well at least you can take it as well as give it.


Humanity is so much more complex, it does not have to just mathematically work, it has to work with reality

why? You are not telling me nothing new..


Yes, I am, you look at people who say 'it's mathematically corrrect so it's correct' and market talkers have much blame in this. Actually, what maths is saying, if it doesn't work mathematically then it won't work, not the other way around. It's subtle.


It has to work with reality ? and what is maths based on? reality? lol


Maths is entirely subjective, our most powerful predicitive tool and yet it cannot prove that it will not contradict itself.


Thats why the matrix movie is so good ITs maths! a stupid loop of total nonsens

And you word it very well yourself I was mearly pointing out The is a real code but its not MATHS.. its a level UP.. just becouse its ELOGICAL does not mean its not "just means we dont know the start of the end of the code"

Its like being droped in the middle of a dna strand and working out what dna is.. Pointless..



and yes prove me wrong ..


DNA gives us a form, but I bow to you, when I write on this machine I have to wait two minutes for hard drive priveledge, I have wiped out a previous hard drive and virus scanned it then. If you know my IP you can drop viruses central, my virus software (F-Secure) recognises none of my viruses unless I put it onto backup and reinstall my machine. That is why it has taken so long to reply to you. My anti virus is knocked out, useless and not an advert, but I am political and when I represent myself in UK, my computer seems to shut down.......... Maths is not the answer, but it's a good check, as is the British Labour Party.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:29 PM
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There is no such thing as random. Random does not logically exist. A computer can not generate a random number. Only consciousness/free will has the FREEDOM needed to actually generate a random number. The random numbers computer programs generate are actually predictable - because they rely on the logic and are bound by that logic to generate a number. As it is bound to that logic, it doesn't have the free will to generate something beyond that logic.

Random is just yet another illusion provided by the state of limited perception.

Probably the biggest mistake someone can make is thinking they are part of the logic/creation rather than the source that creates it.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:30 PM
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Some people believe they have guardian angels that compels them to make proper choices in some way or another. I think there may be those who have a psychic sense or intuition as part of their free will to either accept it or ignore it. I think some of us learn while we grow what to trust to some degree. Some of us may have dark guardians also.

I recall having had dreams when I was younger of a couple of jobs I would later have. One of which was working in a flooring mill. I didn't recall these childhood dreams until a few years ago. Alternate realities may only be how or if we enjoy the journey.

I wonder about the news stories of people who were said to be in the wrong place and at the wrong time. Is that destiny or karma? idk

Even blessings are said to become a curse.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


So im free to question maths then right?

To question the understanding of it.. yes.. why? i dont know i just do..

I like how you said if there are no reasons then there should be no questions..

we are maths we are what we see and think.. its so complex but simple..


My honest opinion on everything? we are in something alive.. and we are preprogrammed much like the cells in your body... by dna.. we do think we have a choice.. becouse we do! but we dont have a choice in being alive.. and never will.. unless we make it.. "kids" ect..

Its all odd ill give you that much



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by aleon1018
Even blessings are said to become a curse.


I often say the best blessings are the ones that weren't given. Just imagine if all our lives we had been given everything we asked for instead of what we needed. What kind of people would we be? I know I sure am glad that some of the things I asked for weren't given knowing what I know now.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
There is no such thing as random. Random does not logically exist. A computer can not generate a random number. Only consciousness/free will has the FREEDOM needed to actually generate a random number. The random numbers computer programs generate are actually predictable - because they rely on the logic and are bound by that logic to generate a number. As it is bound to that logic, it doesn't have the free will to generate something beyond that logic.

Random is just yet another illusion provided by the state of limited perception.

Probably the biggest mistake someone can make is thinking they are part of the logic/creation rather than the source that creates it.



If I shuffle cards like I like and you like you like and we take turns, it will end up so chaotic as to make it to the questioner, random.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


yes its called mathamatics...

You are saying what infact WE do every single day when we use maths...

A computer? erm yes based on HUMAN logica and UNDERSTANDING.. a computer is based on human logic.. and now you know why they suck


But point is We are a mathamatical eqation.. a result of the universe in all her glory adding up and doing her job and spat you out as a RESULT




posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by redled

Originally posted by badmedia
There is no such thing as random. Random does not logically exist. A computer can not generate a random number. Only consciousness/free will has the FREEDOM needed to actually generate a random number. The random numbers computer programs generate are actually predictable - because they rely on the logic and are bound by that logic to generate a number. As it is bound to that logic, it doesn't have the free will to generate something beyond that logic.

Random is just yet another illusion provided by the state of limited perception.

Probably the biggest mistake someone can make is thinking they are part of the logic/creation rather than the source that creates it.



If I shuffle cards like I like and you like you like and we take turns, it will end up so chaotic as to make it to the questioner, random.



Only 2 colours in a deckof cards.. and btw they are all cards lol

3 things..

+ cards in deck

probiblity thats called have fun !! or watch the movie about the collage geeks who rinsed a casino doing just that



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:40 PM
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This is getting interesting. How can math explain Destiny or Free will? I dont think that making a choice changes your dimension, but changes your universe. How can a 1d object make a decision and then be 3D? it cant be something it cannot perceive, atleast from my understading on the subject.

Math tends to be contradictory, some say its 1+1=2 and also 3, how can this be, it cant possibly be both, but at the same time it could be. Thats like trying to rewrite the laws of physics(which need to be done) in the 1st grade of school, I dont see how a person of that intellectual group can do it, especially without the understanding on the subject required to complete the task.

Randomness isnt part of the Conscious mind in a way we can understand it, we are sitting in the 'box'. We have not evolved far enough just yet to get to the outside of this box we are in. Someone wont just kill there best friend out of the blue during the middle of a conversation, thats a big thought process involved. Everything you do is a thought at one point, the idea of reading this very thread was somewhere down in your mind before you started reading this.

Rekar



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
I subscribe to free will rather than fate/destiny because I prefer not to take on the role of the victim. Fate and destiny is IMO to play the role of the victim, where as free will puts you in the role of responsibility for your actions - reaping what you have sown.


That's cool. I also accept I might well have something we call 'free will'. But it's probably not the same as others might define it to be.

I don't consider myself a victim. I make my choices. I am the sum of all my experiences, motivations/emotions, and biology (internal) and I react to the environment (external). No victim.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by theresult

Originally posted by redled

Originally posted by badmedia
There is no such thing as random. Random does not logically exist. A computer can not generate a random number. Only consciousness/free will has the FREEDOM needed to actually generate a random number. The random numbers computer programs generate are actually predictable - because they rely on the logic and are bound by that logic to generate a number. As it is bound to that logic, it doesn't have the free will to generate something beyond that logic.

Random is just yet another illusion provided by the state of limited perception.

Probably the biggest mistake someone can make is thinking they are part of the logic/creation rather than the source that creates it.



If I shuffle cards like I like and you like you like and we take turns, it will end up so chaotic as to make it to the questioner, random.



Only 2 colours in a deckof cards.. and btw they are all cards lol

3 things..

+ cards in deck

probiblity thats called have fun !! or watch the movie about the collage geeks who rinsed a casino doing just that


Yeah, but even red and black can be random. You could have said there were only thirteen numbers. Like that makes a material difference.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by redled
 


Im still new here.. !! but one of the things you said was that im saying maths is correct "nothing over rules maths"

Im not saying that atlat.. Im trying to prove that maths is just a state of mind.. not a thing

Its hard to put into words sometimes.. becouse im crap at english..

I use maths on itself.. I proves that maths is just one level of thinking.. nothing more.. we as humans are not logical to see the next level becouse we still use mathmatics.. "it loops" ie goes NOWHERE.. how can we get to a place we want to be at using a system that gives us NO clear way to getting to the end?

Like a guy said befor its like being on a road.. maths is a ring road..

keep driving.. and you will end up in the same place..

Thats why aliens are wizzing about... there on the motorway ... as we dullets go round and around..





posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by theresult
So im free to question maths then right?

To question the understanding of it.. yes.. why? i dont know i just do..

I like how you said if there are no reasons then there should be no questions..

we are maths we are what we see and think.. its so complex but simple..


My honest opinion on everything? we are in something alive.. and we are preprogrammed much like the cells in your body... by dna.. we do think we have a choice.. becouse we do! but we dont have a choice in being alive.. and never will.. unless we make it.. "kids" ect..

Its all odd ill give you that much


Math is logic. Logic can bring you to understanding, but one must realize that the logic is the foundation of creation and not the creator itself. The only way logic is formed is from conscious thought. There is no real free will in logic. I make my living based on logic I am able to come up with(I'm a programmer), and the entire reason it "works" is because the program has no free will to do otherwise. If it did have free will to do otherwise, then the program wouldn't "work", it would just do things that seemed "random" to me.

Math and Science are both on the levels of action and reaction. These levels are important and can explain alot. But you will never find free will, consciousness or anything beyond that logic in it. If you want to lock yourself into such a box, I can't stop you. But I am pointing out that you would be locking yourself into a box.

Consciousness is sometimes called the state of being aware. To understand this fact, one must first be aware that they are aware. And to be aware that you are aware goes beyond logic. And in that you can find free will, and in that is where you get it.

This is not really new either. This has always been known. In the bible, the genesis story talks about this - although not in the same way. Where it talks about how your body is from the earth etc. Your body is from the creation, the vessel. But it also talks about how the spirit of god comes upon the earth, and fills it. And that is the consciousness which fills the vessel, aka - what is really YOU.

You are not "in something that is alive", but rather you are alive in something which is not. This is also why the bible says the kingdom of god is within.

So science/math/logic = action and reaction.
consciousness/god = reason, understanding and choice.

You are from that which creates logic, not that which is a part of the logic. When people look at science, they often forget it takes the scientist to understand it.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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The problem is that it isnt random at all. It is one choice of many, that doesnt make it random. Random would be of the different types of cards there are, like the spade, the 2, the 3, all the sudden out of no where in the deck, a 32 shows up, And maybe even then, it could also be considered a possibility of having happen, but that doesnt make it a random chance. Random is saying of all these choice that are pre-defined, a new, and undefined one shows up and goes into action as soon as it is created. That isnt perceivable by us, everything we create is Logical, and random is not logical. Computers, using a binary language, even cant generate a random event, because it was built by a logical, sentient life form, being us.

rekar



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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reply to post by redled
 


do you know how to play cards? its all based on maths.. jeez

Yes i could use the 13 numbers as u pointed out but that gives rise to more posiblitys..


More numbers you have the more outcomes you have ok?

So you dont worry about the 13 whatever.. you worr about the comman lowsert number / outcome..

red or black...

try it the next time you play black jack or just get a deck of cards and guess what the next colour will be.. red or black?

I know my next hand if i can guess what your colour cards are

its a mathamatical real thing.. or did i miss something in class?





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