So, are you going along with buddy 3 saying there is more than one 'destiny'? I dont see how that could be a wrong answer, but what you said also could be the same thing, but using a game in place.

rekar

Originally posted by rekar
Explain how Randomness doesnt give you Free Will...

Randomness suggests no control at all. People consistently associate this issue with moral responsibility, so lets add randmoness in that domain...

Man: Hello John, how are you?

John: internal monologue: [this is my friend -> say hello back -> (random intervention) -> must kill friend]

John kills friend. Is he morally responsible for such a random neural influence? Was John in control of his ship? Perhaps he should blame Schrodinger's cat for the murder.

Is that the sort of thing you mean by 'free will'?

Originally posted by melatonin
Randomness provides no ability for free will. Determinism is suggested to also provide no place for true free will.

Do the tracks free the train, or do the tracks enslave the train? I'd suggest that the tracks merely provide the illusion of freedom, as soon as the train makes a choice to leave the tracks and go in a different direction, the train will see that it is not free at all.

The only way free will can exist is if all possibilities exist. The moment a possibility doesn't exist is the moment free will is gone.

And in the universe, all possibilities DO exist. All there side by side. It is only our limited perception that keeps us from seeing them, but quantum physics is somewhat getting there.

Everytime you make a choice, you are shifting and changing dimensions. Time itself is nothing more than the change of 1 dimension to another. It appears linear only in our perspective, because we experience it in a linear way. But you are constantly changing dimensions. We just see ourselves as being on those tracks.

Right this second, instead of being in the dimension where you are reading my words, you could easily be in the dimension where you are watching TV. 2 possibilities, 2 dimensions. Because these are just thoughts. The only thing that produces something from nothing is conscious thought.

If you look at the linear path you have taken thus far, then it very much can seem as though you can't escape your "fate/destiny". But when you look at the possibilities of what the future may hold, then you can start to see your own free will, and start to change the direction of that linear time. Now, was it fate that you would do so all along? Possibily - all things must be possible. But in reality, it's just a matter of perspection.

I subscribe to free will rather than fate/destiny because I prefer not to take on the role of the victim. Fate and destiny is IMO to play the role of the victim, where as free will puts you in the role of responsibility for your actions - reaping what you have sown.

There is no such thing as random. Random does not logically exist. A computer can not generate a random number. Only consciousness/free will has the FREEDOM needed to actually generate a random number. The random numbers computer programs generate are actually predictable - because they rely on the logic and are bound by that logic to generate a number. As it is bound to that logic, it doesn't have the free will to generate something beyond that logic.

Random is just yet another illusion provided by the state of limited perception.

Probably the biggest mistake someone can make is thinking they are part of the logic/creation rather than the source that creates it.

Some people believe they have guardian angels that compels them to make proper choices in some way or another. I think there may be those who have a psychic sense or intuition as part of their free will to either accept it or ignore it. I think some of us learn while we grow what to trust to some degree. Some of us may have dark guardians also.

I recall having had dreams when I was younger of a couple of jobs I would later have. One of which was working in a flooring mill. I didn't recall these childhood dreams until a few years ago. Alternate realities may only be how or if we enjoy the journey.

I wonder about the news stories of people who were said to be in the wrong place and at the wrong time. Is that destiny or karma? idk

Even blessings are said to become a curse.

Originally posted by aleon1018
Even blessings are said to become a curse.

I often say the best blessings are the ones that weren't given. Just imagine if all our lives we had been given everything we asked for instead of what we needed. What kind of people would we be? I know I sure am glad that some of the things I asked for weren't given knowing what I know now.

Originally posted by badmedia
There is no such thing as random. Random does not logically exist. A computer can not generate a random number. Only consciousness/free will has the FREEDOM needed to actually generate a random number. The random numbers computer programs generate are actually predictable - because they rely on the logic and are bound by that logic to generate a number. As it is bound to that logic, it doesn't have the free will to generate something beyond that logic.

Random is just yet another illusion provided by the state of limited perception.

Probably the biggest mistake someone can make is thinking they are part of the logic/creation rather than the source that creates it.

If I shuffle cards like I like and you like you like and we take turns, it will end up so chaotic as to make it to the questioner, random.

Originally posted by redled

Originally posted by badmedia
There is no such thing as random. Random does not logically exist. A computer can not generate a random number. Only consciousness/free will has the FREEDOM needed to actually generate a random number. The random numbers computer programs generate are actually predictable - because they rely on the logic and are bound by that logic to generate a number. As it is bound to that logic, it doesn't have the free will to generate something beyond that logic.

Random is just yet another illusion provided by the state of limited perception.

Probably the biggest mistake someone can make is thinking they are part of the logic/creation rather than the source that creates it.

If I shuffle cards like I like and you like you like and we take turns, it will end up so chaotic as to make it to the questioner, random.

Only 2 colours in a deckof cards.. and btw they are all cards lol

3 things..

+ cards in deck

probiblity thats called have fun !! or watch the movie about the collage geeks who rinsed a casino doing just that

This is getting interesting. How can math explain Destiny or Free will? I dont think that making a choice changes your dimension, but changes your universe. How can a 1d object make a decision and then be 3D? it cant be something it cannot perceive, atleast from my understading on the subject.

Math tends to be contradictory, some say its 1+1=2 and also 3, how can this be, it cant possibly be both, but at the same time it could be. Thats like trying to rewrite the laws of physics(which need to be done) in the 1st grade of school, I dont see how a person of that intellectual group can do it, especially without the understanding on the subject required to complete the task.

Randomness isnt part of the Conscious mind in a way we can understand it, we are sitting in the 'box'. We have not evolved far enough just yet to get to the outside of this box we are in. Someone wont just kill there best friend out of the blue during the middle of a conversation, thats a big thought process involved. Everything you do is a thought at one point, the idea of reading this very thread was somewhere down in your mind before you started reading this.

Rekar

Originally posted by badmedia
I subscribe to free will rather than fate/destiny because I prefer not to take on the role of the victim. Fate and destiny is IMO to play the role of the victim, where as free will puts you in the role of responsibility for your actions - reaping what you have sown.

That's cool. I also accept I might well have something we call 'free will'. But it's probably not the same as others might define it to be.

I don't consider myself a victim. I make my choices. I am the sum of all my experiences, motivations/emotions, and biology (internal) and I react to the environment (external). No victim.

Originally posted by theresult

Originally posted by redled

Originally posted by badmedia
There is no such thing as random. Random does not logically exist. A computer can not generate a random number. Only consciousness/free will has the FREEDOM needed to actually generate a random number. The random numbers computer programs generate are actually predictable - because they rely on the logic and are bound by that logic to generate a number. As it is bound to that logic, it doesn't have the free will to generate something beyond that logic.

Random is just yet another illusion provided by the state of limited perception.

Probably the biggest mistake someone can make is thinking they are part of the logic/creation rather than the source that creates it.

If I shuffle cards like I like and you like you like and we take turns, it will end up so chaotic as to make it to the questioner, random.

Only 2 colours in a deckof cards.. and btw they are all cards lol

3 things..

+ cards in deck

probiblity thats called have fun !! or watch the movie about the collage geeks who rinsed a casino doing just that

Yeah, but even red and black can be random. You could have said there were only thirteen numbers. Like that makes a material difference.

Originally posted by theresult
So im free to question maths then right?

To question the understanding of it.. yes.. why? i dont know i just do..

I like how you said if there are no reasons then there should be no questions..

we are maths we are what we see and think.. its so complex but simple..


My honest opinion on everything? we are in something alive.. and we are preprogrammed much like the cells in your body... by dna.. we do think we have a choice.. becouse we do! but we dont have a choice in being alive.. and never will.. unless we make it.. "kids" ect..

Its all odd ill give you that much

Math is logic. Logic can bring you to understanding, but one must realize that the logic is the foundation of creation and not the creator itself. The only way logic is formed is from conscious thought. There is no real free will in logic. I make my living based on logic I am able to come up with(I'm a programmer), and the entire reason it "works" is because the program has no free will to do otherwise. If it did have free will to do otherwise, then the program wouldn't "work", it would just do things that seemed "random" to me.

Math and Science are both on the levels of action and reaction. These levels are important and can explain alot. But you will never find free will, consciousness or anything beyond that logic in it. If you want to lock yourself into such a box, I can't stop you. But I am pointing out that you would be locking yourself into a box.

Consciousness is sometimes called the state of being aware. To understand this fact, one must first be aware that they are aware. And to be aware that you are aware goes beyond logic. And in that you can find free will, and in that is where you get it.

This is not really new either. This has always been known. In the bible, the genesis story talks about this - although not in the same way. Where it talks about how your body is from the earth etc. Your body is from the creation, the vessel. But it also talks about how the spirit of god comes upon the earth, and fills it. And that is the consciousness which fills the vessel, aka - what is really YOU.

You are not "in something that is alive", but rather you are alive in something which is not. This is also why the bible says the kingdom of god is within.

So science/math/logic = action and reaction.
consciousness/god = reason, understanding and choice.

You are from that which creates logic, not that which is a part of the logic. When people look at science, they often forget it takes the scientist to understand it.

The problem is that it isnt random at all. It is one choice of many, that doesnt make it random. Random would be of the different types of cards there are, like the spade, the 2, the 3, all the sudden out of no where in the deck, a 32 shows up, And maybe even then, it could also be considered a possibility of having happen, but that doesnt make it a random chance. Random is saying of all these choice that are pre-defined, a new, and undefined one shows up and goes into action as soon as it is created. That isnt perceivable by us, everything we create is Logical, and random is not logical. Computers, using a binary language, even cant generate a random event, because it was built by a logical, sentient life form, being us.

rekar