WORLD: Fanatical Muslims vs. The Free World

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posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 10:46 PM
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reply to post by Blaine91555
 


But most moderate Muslims are from and in secular societies. I think it has more do to with the middle eastern culture and its interpretation of Islam. I wonder if there would be a significant change if the middle east was catholic and the west was Muslim.




posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 10:57 PM
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reply to post by Founding
 


Some muslims are radical and some are not.How about this thread, it was made at a time when a conflict is taking place, would that be fair? Why do people tend to take focus out of the conflict and divert it in another place.



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 11:02 PM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


Why do you always repeat what I have answered? In my above post I addressed the non-radical and radical question.

Also, I have posted a reply to a comment you have made about the "holocaust card." Are you going to answer or hide?



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


This thread is not even about the conflict going on right now. You have misread what the OP posted somehow? It is more likely that you want this thread to be about the current conflict for some reason?

[edit on 1/5/2009 by Blaine91555]



posted on Jan, 5 2009 @ 11:13 PM
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reply to post by Founding
 


That would be an impossible scenario to envision, but if by that you mean that the Muslims advanced to the point of a Western Society and Democracy while the Christians and Jews remained in countries ruled by their religions?

I think the system of governance we live under has far more effect on who we are than the religion of our Fathers.

Edited to say:
I know the above is a tortured answer and I hope you get my real meaning.

[edit on 1/5/2009 by Blaine91555]



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 12:02 AM
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I'll post this again..



Seems like killer Muslims is a problem wherever there are Muslims.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 12:07 AM
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Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by Founding
 


That would be an impossible scenario to envision, but if by that you mean that the Muslims advanced to the point of a Western Society and Democracy while the Christians and Jews remained in countries ruled by their religions?

I think the system of governance we live under has far more effect on who we are than the religion of our Fathers.

Edited to say:
I know the above is a tortured answer and I hope you get my real meaning.

[edit on 1/5/2009 by Blaine91555]



[Vince Edit: My original answer was too harsh in responding, My intention here is to give some background as to where the American concept of rights came from because a lot of people dont know it. I am not saying the person I replied doesn't know it. I'm just saying in general]

You have it the opposite.. it was our religion that formed the system of govt we have.

It was because we recognized that God gave all humans dignity that we said our Govt doesn't give us rights... God did. The Govt job is to protect them.

But our founders said that the system they were establishing, while it itself was secular, it would only work for a people who had the spiritual piety to restrain their impulses.

We're now a few generations past the point where we stopped teaching virtue to children. And so we seeing the Founder's theory about what happens to a society that forsakes its religion right before our eyes.







[edit on 6-1-2009 by VinceP1974]



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 04:00 AM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Well...if we're talking statistics.

I think this is more relevant.

How the world shapes up on Military Spending



And this is how it shapes up on War Deaths



From 2007, but intriguing, don't you think?

Who's suffering the most, and spending the least? And where do all the arms come from?

How the world really shapes up


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.




[edit on 6/1/09 by neformore]



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 04:17 AM
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Originally posted by worldwatcher
reply to post by VinceP1974
 


I ask again how many Muslims were polled or asked how they felt? Have you ever been to a Mosque, sat down to eat or just talk with Muslim? Have you spoken to Muslims from other parts of the world and not just watch them on TV? You're all viewing a very one sided view of Islam, same way some of them have a very one sided view of let's says Americans, or Jews, or Hindus. Painting an entire culture and religion and it doesn't matter which one it is with one singular brush is very wrong but it's being done on both sides and it's being done here on ATS with words that people choose to use. We are all guilty of this, example this thread alone should serve that purpose. Yet we know, that if we really knew each other on a personal level, no matter or religion or beliefs we have, we wouldn't and we couldn't kill or hurt each other the way those who instigate this religious war wants us to.

[edit on 1-5-2009 by worldwatcher]


This isn't a matter of how many nominal Muslims I know. Because nominal Muslims have no effect on pious violent Muslims.

You are obligating the wrong people. I am under no obligation to try to figure out which Muslims are the nice ones and which ones are the demented death worshipers.

I wish I didn't know half the things I know about this mad religion. I wish I didn't know about the vile and sickening methods the Muslims have used to destroy a people they conquered.

I wish I didn't have to work through all the lies and deceptions that surround the history of Islam.

And now you ask me how many Muslims I know , have I been to Mosque....


Don't question me. You dont have to worry about me suddenly snapping and getting in my car and just run over random people because I want to avenge some Palestinian who sacrificed his son to his god.

What are you doing about your religion? How many Wahabbis do you know? Have you told them they're wrong? How many Twelvers doyou know? Did you tell them it's wrong if they think they can cause the Mahdi to come quicker?

How many Deobandi s do you know? Have you told them they're hijacking Islam?

What are you doing other than making a whitewash?



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 04:20 AM
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Originally posted by neformore

Well...if we're talking statistics.

I think this is more relevant.


Actually it's completely irrelevant to the topic. Let me guess. you're college educated?



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 04:36 AM
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reply to post by worldwatcher
 


I actually have been to Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Qatar and talked to many average people there. Sat with them in Cafes. Argued with them. Shared laughs with them. As mentioned earlier, I have taken on the Muslim POV. Do you think they'd ever consider the Jewish/Israeli POV? Not a chance.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 04:37 AM
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reply to post by neformore
 


Those maps show that the U.S./Israel do more military spending. Yes, I admit it.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 04:41 AM
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reply to post by VinceP1974
 


...while your maps prove the point of religiously-motivated attacks on non-believers being a major issue today.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 04:49 AM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.




Actually it's completely irrelevant to the topic. Let me guess. you're college educated?


How I'm educated is irrelevant to the topic.

Who exports the weapons, who uses them, and where and how they are used is particularly relevant to the topic, because thats the root of the worlds problems, not any particular religion.

Or let me put it another way, how much ordnance has the "West" expended in the middle east in recent years, either directly or by proxy in arms sales to "favoured nations" and allies?

And when that ordance has been used, how much of it was expended out of "fanaticism", be it religious or otherwise?

Wasn't the "crusade" to remove WMD's from Iraq "fanatical" in the sense that the Neocons pursued the issue with particularly excessive zeal? I think the wargasm induced by the TV coverage of that conflict proved that to be the case. Don't the Israelis respond to fanaticism with fanaticism of their own? It certainly seems that way.

Labelling one side of a debate is pointless. It take two people/sides to have conflict, not just one, and in this case neither the "free world" or the "fanatics" are innocent one little bit.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 04:59 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by worldwatcher
 


I actually have been to Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Qatar and talked to many average people there. Sat with them in Cafes. Argued with them. Shared laughs with them. As mentioned earlier, I have taken on the Muslim POV. Do you think they'd ever consider the Jewish/Israeli POV? Not a chance.


You were pretty marred by that experience though weren't you? Both sides in this conflict are conflicting, as in it takes two to tango and two armies to wage a war. As I recall you stayed in Bethlehem during that visit, on the Palestinian side and were amazed at the contrast between the 'forward thinking' clean and advanced Israeli side by comparison. That culture, Israeli culture was imported from Europe, it doesn't or didn't belong there, it suited you because it was more along the lines that you were used to. It is similar, I imagine to visiting the US and staying on an Indian Reservation, poor example but I hope I give the gist. The people of Palestine have been driven to extremism, they weren't born that way. When all hope of a peaceful solution is lost, when you continue to be pushed into a smaller and smaller hole, when all means to forge a life and living is removed from you, tell me what do you do? Do you die or do you fight for your survival?

Islamic radicalism only exists because Islam has been radicalised by circumstances and it had also been supported in the same way as Christian and Jewish radicalism has been. The Madrassa system was funded by the Saudis, right from the word go. If you study the rise of Islam, from the early 1800s you will see a clear and distinct path. When the Anglican church launched their own Jihad at the turn of that century, because of concerns that the British Empire would be usurped by free-trade, the British forces systematically hunted down all muslim intellectuals and in doing so removed the beauty from that religion and replaced it with hatred. It now serves a purpose, divisions keep the military-industrial complex in profits. The fanatics, christian, jewish, muslim, whatever, keep wars going, so the warmongers keep the fanatics going.

It is important to remember to try on everyones shoes, whether they fit or not, even if they stink, you cannot possibly understand the world today until you have at least attempted to see it from every conceiveable angle.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 05:04 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by worldwatcher
 

Do you think they'd ever consider the Jewish/Israeli POV? Not a chance.


How would you expect someone to consider zionist POV when their terrorist existance in that area is illegal in first place.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 05:18 AM
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Originally posted by neformore



Actually it's completely irrelevant to the topic. Let me guess. you're college educated?


How I'm educated is irrelevant to the topic.


Maybe .. maybe not. It's been my experience that the longer one has stayed in one those places (unless to be a Doctor or something like that) , the more unable they are to handle information that is counter to their view, the more they subscribe to the typical cliche Leftwing Cultural Marxism nonsense their long-obsolete professors have reinforced.

So that is why I ask.. to know if that is the case or not. Because it's a big problem in this country.




Who exports the weapons, who uses them, and where and how they are used is particularly relevant to the topic, because thats the root of the worlds problems, not any particular religion.

Or let me put it another way, how much ordnance has the "West" expended in the middle east in recent years, either directly or by proxy in arms sales to "favoured nations" and allies?

And when that ordance has been used, how much of it was expended out of "fanaticism", be it religious or otherwise?

Wasn't the "crusade" to remove WMD's from Iraq "fanatical" in the sense that the Neocons pursued the issue with particularly excessive zeal? I think the wargasm induced by the TV coverage of that conflict proved that to be the case. Don't the Israelis respond to fanaticism with fanaticism of their own? It certainly seems that way.

Labelling one side of a debate is pointless. It take two people/sides to have conflict, not just one, and in this case neither the "free world" or the "fanatics" are innocent one little bit.


I'm looking at the topic and it says "Muslims vs Free World"...

I can tell you're college educated because you are unable to address this real-world problem so instead you deflect to something you can blame America for.


So tell me.. are you in or were you in a college? You don't have to tell me which one or if you have a degree.. I'm just curious if my theory is holding up. You dont have to answer , of course,, but if you do, please be honest.



[edit on 6-1-2009 by VinceP1974]



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 05:40 AM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by worldwatcher
 


I actually have been to Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Qatar and talked to many average people there. Sat with them in Cafes. Argued with them. Shared laughs with them. As mentioned earlier, I have taken on the Muslim POV. Do you think they'd ever consider the Jewish/Israeli POV? Not a chance.


You were pretty marred by that experience though weren't you? Both sides in this conflict are conflicting, as in it takes two to tango and two armies to wage a war.


It only takes one side. Ask the people in the World Trade Center how many sides you need to obliterate them.



As I recall you stayed in Bethlehem during that visit, on the Palestinian side and were amazed at the contrast between the 'forward thinking' clean and advanced Israeli side by comparison. That culture, Israeli culture was imported from Europe, it doesn't or didn't belong there, it suited you because it was more along the lines that you were used to.


Actually, I have right next to me a book that was written at least 400 years before an Arab did his Jihadist duty by conquering Bethlehem. And that book is full of stories about Jews in that very town.

I've been there to , btw... It's clear which side actually gives a darn about the country and which side can't be bothered.

No matter.. because the Muslim Palestinians are quite busy exterminating the Christian Palestinians... so pretty soon it will be incredibly hostile for any Non Muslim to go there. Not that you care. Whatever the Muslims do is a-ok with you. The Jewish / Christian culture of industry has no place in a Muslim dominated area.. you are correct.. unless one is self-sacrificing and doesn't mind paying the jizya.





It is similar, I imagine to visiting the US and staying on an Indian Reservation, poor example but I hope I give the gist. The people of Palestine have been driven to extremism, they weren't born that way.


They weren't born that way. EXCELLENT insight! Wow.. where do you get your schooling I wish i could have been exposed to such clever insight.

This is where the Extermism comes from



and this is what they do to their kids



They have been doing this sort of jihadist education since the beginning of the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinians have no interest in peace. They are raising all their people to be Islamic killers.



When all hope of a peaceful solution is lost, when you continue to be pushed into a smaller and smaller hole, when all means to forge a life and living is removed from you, tell me what do you do? Do you die or do you fight for your survival?


Please you bought their propaganda , which is quite pathetic, becuase they people aren't going to stop with Israel. Israel is the Little Satan. They're going after the Great Satan too.

Every encroachment on their areas has been a direct result from their own barbarism and terrorism.

You do believe in cause and effect don't you?



Islamic radicalism only exists because Islam has been radicalised by circumstances and it had also been supported in the same way as Christian and Jewish radicalism has been. The Madrassa system was funded by the Saudis, right from the word go. If you study the rise of Islam, from the early 1800s you will see a clear and distinct path. When the Anglican church launched their own Jihad at the turn of that century, because of concerns that the British Empire would be usurped by free-trade, the British forces systematically hunted down all muslim intellectuals and in doing so removed the beauty from that religion and replaced it with hatred. It now serves a purpose, divisions keep the military-industrial complex in profits. The fanatics, christian, jewish, muslim, whatever, keep wars going, so the warmongers keep the fanatics going.


Totally wrong answer. I'm sure it fits some people, but there is universe of other causes as well.

The Palestinians are the Islamic vanguard of Jihad to eliminate the Jews.




It is important to remember to try on everyones shoes, whether they fit or not, even if they stink, you cannot possibly understand the world today until you have at least attempted to see it from every conceiveable angle.


You should take your own advice and actually listen to what these people say to one another. It's no secret. That is how I know what I know.

Everything I've said is from reading about it from their mouths.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 06:02 AM
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pieman, you got it absolutly spot on.



posted on Jan, 6 2009 @ 06:02 AM
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Originally posted by VinceP1974
And so we seeing the Founder's theory about what happens to a society that forsakes its religion right before our eyes.


But weren't the founding fathers of the opinion that organised religion,particularly christianity,has a terrible effect on society and should in no way be afforded any authority or place in US government?





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