Why do we have to rule over the world? , page 4
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reply posted on 23-1-2009 @ 07:39 PM by rich23
Oh dear oh dear...

First let's just set the scene with a quotation from George Kennan, one of the most influential of US policymakers of the 20th century. Now Chomsky uses this quotation a lot, and people bang on about how it's always taken out of context. So what I've done is find it in full. There are two paragraphs in particular that bear attention, and there is a sizeable gap between them. If you want to find the whole thing, I'll link it below:

Furthermore, we have about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3% of its population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction.


I've omitted a paragraph that talks about the Far East.

In the face of this situation we would be better off to dispense now with a number of the concepts which have underlined our thinking with regard to the Far East. We should dispense with the aspiration to "be liked" or to be regarded as the repository of a high-minded international altruism. We should stop putting ourselves in the position of being our brothers' keeper and refrain from offering moral and ideological advice. We should cease to talk about vague and -- for the Far East -- unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.


The same year Kennan wrote this, he attended a conference of the OAS and basically laid down the same kind of deal for Latin America, reinforcing the Monroe doctrine.

In case you didn't notice, this means


  • no human rights
  • no decent living standards
  • no democracy


This might explain the prevalence of death squads backed by the US everywhere from Colombia to Chile to Indonesia to Iran and, latterly, since the US invasion, to Iraq.

If you can still believe the US is a beacon of democracy, good luck.

Source for the Kennan quote

Bottom lune: the US has, for over a century (it was going on long before Kennan) using its power to get access to raw materials and cheap labour, and to ensure that, wherever possible, US companies operating outside the US weren't bothered with cumbersome things like having to pay local taxes.

To justify this to the folks at home and to the poor saps out there fighting to maintain US economic supremacy, the usual imperial excuses are trotted out - "we have to subdue the Visigoths or they'll sack Rome!" Of course, after enough attempts, the Visigoths, who hitherto might have cared less, really wanted to sack Rome.

Take the recent illegal invasion of Iraq. Motivated not solely by oil, but so that Monsanto could force Iraqis to use its products, and so that, above all, Iraqi oil would be sold in dollars. If you click on my sig for "the real history of oil", you'll find a funny and instructive lecture about why that's so important. The analogy with Salvador Dali is brilliant.


Originally posted by Frankidealist35
What have we benefited the world with?

Science. The space race. We landed the first man on the moon. We created NASA.


Yup. That's put food on millions of families.

And it wouldn't have happened so quickly without those wacky Nazis that were smuggled over through Operation Paperclip... others, of not such a scientific bent, were brought over to South America to help run puppet governments there. This is all in the books. Not the kind of books you'd have read in school though. I know this because I picked up a school textbook on Latin America when I was in Florida, and it seemed to think the deposition of Allende (on September 11, no less) wasn't done by the CIA. Which, as we know, it was.
We created the FDA. Without the FDA your foods wouldn't probably be as healthy.


Are you NUTS? Sorry, that was a bit rude, but... did you know, for example, that the head of the FDA wanted to ban NutraSweet, I think it was. He got sacked and replaced by a guy who immediately certified it... then went on to take a nice job with the corporation that manufactured it. Likewise, when a scientist in Britain published experimental results that showed that feeding GM food to rats caused brain lesions, Monsanto called Clinton, who called Bliar, who called the Royal Society, who convened a kangaroo court to rubbish the results.

Meanwhile a bunch of schoolkids, in proper scientific style, were duplicating those results and publishing them on the internet.

We in the UK don't have GM food. In the US, I think, you're not allowed to know whether it's in your food or not.

Next!

We gave you CNN.


Is this the best you can do? Corporate News Network? (Known, hilariously, in Texas - of course - as "communist news network".) It is, as Bugs would say, to laugh. We gave the world the BBC but it's not something I'd boast about.

A lot of your products in your culture come from us. Many of your goods that you get from us are exported from our country.


For example: Americans prefer to eat the white meat from chickens. This creates a glut of legs and wings, which are then dumped in places like Jamaica, destroying the local poultry industry completely. Thanks, Uncle Sam! I found that out on the BBC, not CNN.

Good things to come out of the US include jazz, rock and roll, funk, and hip-hop. I don't count blues, not because I don't like it but because it's almost indistinguishable from certain African folk music.

These art forms are actually the product of slavery, which caused a collision between white European cultural forms and black African ones.

Oh yeah, Merrie Melodies/Looney Tunes. Some of the funniest stuff ever, I reckon.

The US is basically an empire though. We have naval superiority. Our navy is basically everywhere.


But what else have we given to the rest of the world?


Cars and aeroplanes, believe it or not, were not invented solely in the US. Neither were movies, although it became a huge industry in the US unlike in other countries. The US is good at selling its myth, both to itself and others.

The US has given the world modern business culture. Whether that's something thw world will survive is for the future.

We have jump started your economies after World War II during the cold war...


Reading more of Kennan, you'll find out that that was done so the US would have markets for its exports. THAT'S why US products have been successful. Europe had to rebuild. America didn't even have to retool, because the military-industrial complex still pumped out many, many weapons during the post-WWII period.

Now, what has the UK done for the world?


The UK was an empire and of course justified its police actions round the world with a lot of patronising guff about exporting British ideas, just as the US is doing now. I'm not interested in justifying that period of UK history, it doesn't seem particularly defensible to me.

However, because our empire was overt, not commercial, when we left, we left our infrastructure behind. I was also surprised to discover in my travels in the Caribbean that some people there are really glad of the educational system we set up, which survives today (well, 5 years ago at least, haven't been back in a while) rather better than it has done here, where standards have really dropped.

A unionist I met in Belize expressed this to me, to my surprise. He also told me about an instance of genuine altruism about which I had not previously heard: the US-backed government in Guatemala was massing troops on the Belize border and making invasion noises: the Brits moved a couple of warships into place and they thought better of it.

Which of course, really made me wonder how we dropped the ball so completely on the Falklands.

Especially as one of the things I was taught in history, VERY early on, was that if you're ruling a country and you have trouble at home, a foreign war is just what you need to pull the country together right behind you. And God knows that c**t Thatcher was in trouble - rising unemployment, rioting, popularity at an all-time low...

Anyway, I'm really only trying to correct the delusional antics of those Americans who don't quite understand the real nature of America's role in the world. Not ruling it, exactly: just being a massive bully for other kids' lunch money.

Hope that clears things up.

[edit on 23-1-2009 by rich23]

[edit on 23-1-2009 by rich23]


reply posted on 23-1-2009 @ 08:41 PM by rich23
Originally posted by Frankidealist35
Back during the cold war the two most advanced nations in the world were us and the soviet union. We had beaten them during the space race because of our math and our science.


As I pointed out, getting the cream of Nazi rocket scientists gave you a head start... but all you did was get to the moon first.

First satellite; Sputnik.
First man in space: Yuri Gagarin.

The soviets got the first spacewalk, too, but didn't try to get to the moon. They concentrated on trying to get reliable technology and an earth orbit station. But partly because they didn't exploit their empire commercially the way the US did, they didn't have so much money to throw around.

I saw an interview with a very disappointed NASA guy who was really sad that the US hadn't gone back to the moon. He said, we're like a dog that barks at a car until it parks, then pees on it and walks off."

His analogy, not mine. Pretty funny, though.

This is such a charming typo I had to draw attention to it: we all make mistakes, but this one is pretty funny:

We also are the most ethically diverse nation in the world.


Quite possibly.

We allow more immigrants than anyone else in the world.


Well someone's got to do the menial jobs.

We are 3rd in oil exports to other nations.


Er... now I thought this was probably wrong, so I googled "oil exporting countries" and
this was the first link I found...

Official figures showing the amount of oil the US imports. By country. If it weren't a US government website, I wouldn't have believed it, but apparently...

Canada remained the largest exporter of total petroleum in November, exporting 2.528 million barrels per day to the United States, which is a decrease from last month (.059 thousand barrels per day). The second largest exporter of total petroleum was Saudi Arabia with 1.488 million barrels per day.


We have Microsoft...


A little look at their history reveals that Bill Gates' real coup was to realise the value of the DOS operating system, which had already been written. Some sharp practice later and he had MS-DOS, a proprietary product which was the backbone of a commercial empire which is loathed because of its vicous business practices and its hawking a product which has at times been demonstrably inferior to Linux and Apple, and is still full of holes.

There was a brilliant comment from the judge who oversaw a lawsuit between Microsoft and Netscape. Microsoft were insisting that Windows couldn't be run without IE. The judge retired to his chambers with a laptop and a friendly geek, to emerge a short while later with a fully-functioning laptop running Windows without IE. He said something like, (I'm quoting from memory here):

"Tribal wisdom has it that if your horse dies under you, you should get off and walk. Microsoft's lawyers seem to be arguing a) that the horse is cheaper dead; b) that the horse is better and faster, dead; and c) that it's possible to harness together a number of dead horses for increased speed."

We have the best military in the world.


That's how you run an empire. If you didn't have an empire, you wouldn't need one.

Yes, we've intervened in other nations a bit too much, but, we're still first class world citizens here.


A bit too much? Around four million dead in Indo-China? A few million more dead thanks to US-backed coups in Chile, Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Venezuela, Uruguay, Salvador, Nicaragua, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Greece, Guatemala... the list goes on and on.

You really do need to bone up on your country's history. And not the bowdlerised pap your textbooks give you.

[edit on 23-1-2009 by rich23]


reply posted on 23-1-2009 @ 11:59 PM by Frankidealist35
To answer you, I would say that the death squads aren’t the direct cause of us, and we do not support them. The Bush administration seemed to have made you delusioned with the United States of America. One person who says we cannot do what it is that we’ve been doing in the world does not a country make. I do not support us going into foreign nations and conquering just because we can and some of our most recent Presidents have went into other nations because that’s what we felt like we had to do. As far as this goes:

  • no human rights
  • no decent living standards
  • no democracy


  • Originally posted by rich23
    Oh dear oh dear...
    I fail to see how enforcing the monroe doctrine means no Democracy.

    Also, you said this:

    This might explain the prevalence of death squads backed by the US everywhere from Colombia to Chile to Indonesia to Iran and, latterly, since the US invasion, to Iraq.

    I fail to see how enforcing the Monroe doctrine means that we enforce death squads. And I also fail to see what death squads we support, and, I fail to see proof of us supporting these death squads, other than from your hatred of American policies in other nations. We do not support Iran or other terrorist regimes.


    If you can still believe the US is a beacon of democracy, good luck.

    If you still believe all of that anti-American propaganda on the net, good luck.


    Bottom lune: the US has, for over a century (it was going on long before Kennan) using its power to get access to raw materials and cheap labour, and to ensure that, wherever possible, US companies operating outside the US weren't bothered with cumbersome things like having to pay local taxes.

    To justify this to the folks at home and to the poor saps out there fighting to maintain US economic supremacy, the usual imperial excuses are trotted out - "we have to subdue the Visigoths or they'll sack Rome!" Of course, after enough attempts, the Visigoths, who hitherto might have cared less, really wanted to sack Rome.

    I don’t agree with outsourcing myself. But, these multinational corporations have been outside the regulation of our government for far too long, being able to do what they want. They argue that they can send jobs overseas for cheap labor and that’s why they do that. I imagine that other governments are no different.


    Take the recent illegal invasion of Iraq. Motivated not solely by oil, but so that Monsanto could force Iraqis to use its products, and so that, above all, Iraqi oil would be sold in dollars. If you click on my sig for “the real history of oil”, you’ll find a funny and instructive lecture about why that’s so important. The analogy with Salvador Dali is brilliant.

    I don’t agree with the war on Iraq. That doesn’t make it illegal though. If that’s illegal than any war is illegal. You just have a double standard because it’s the United States that did it. Look, I don’t agree with it, and I don’t agree with Bush, that doesn’t mean I support it, but, if the Iraq war was about oil, why weren’t oil prices lower for the time that we invaded Iraq, etc?

    What have we benefited the world with?

    Science. The space race. We landed the first man on the moon. We created NASA.


    Yup. That’s put food on millions of families.
    Without our advancements in science there would be no way of knowing that your food is safe or not. Science has helped the world. IT has advanced your computers, making them run faster, you can do what you want, without getting poisoned. You know what medicine is okay or not. There are a lot of medications you can take for sicknesses. I don’t see how you could deny the benefits we’ve made to the world with science.


    And it wouldn't have happened so quickly without those wacky Nazis that were smuggled over through Operation Paperclip... others, of not such a scientific bent, were brought over to South America to help run puppet governments there. This is all in the books. Not the kind of books you'd have read in school though. I know this because I picked up a school textbook on Latin America when I was in Florida, and it seemed to think the deposition of Allende (on September 11, no less) wasn't done by the CIA. Which, as we know, it was.

    I have to ask. Do you have any proof of this? Other than ramblings from crazy conspiracy theorists that hate America?

    We created the FDA. Without the FDA your foods wouldn’t probably be as healthy.


    Are you NUTS? Sorry, that was a bit rude, but… did you know, for example, that the head of the FDA wanted to ban NutraSweet, I think it was. He got sacked and replaced by a guy who immediately certified it… then went on to take a nice job with the corporation that manufactured it. Likewise, when a scientist in Britain published experimental results that showed that feeding GM food to rats caused brain lesions, Monsanto called Clinton, who called Bliar, who called the Royal Society, who convened a kangaroo court to rubbish the results.
    I am aware of the recent corruption in the FDA. However, I think it can be as good as it always have been. The good that it has done outweighs the bad that it has done in the world.

    Meanwhile a bunch of schoolkids, in proper scientific style, were duplicating those results and publishing them on the internet.

    Okay?

    We in the UK don't have GM food. In the US, I think, you're not allowed to know whether it's in your food or not.

    Then how do you know if your food is healthy or not?

    Is this the best you can do? Corporate News Network? (Known, hilariously, in Texas - of course - as "communist news network".) It is, as Bugs would say, to laugh. We gave the world the BBC but it's not something I'd boast about.

    Okay, then without being specific, I would argue that we’ve given the world thousands of journalist of which they can access news that is critical of our country, and critical of other countries. We’ve given you AP news, we’ve given you the drudge report, fox news, NBC, and we’ve advanced the freedom of the press in many ways where other nations would deem the press to be oppressive.

    For example: Americans prefer to eat the white meat from chickens. This creates a glut of legs and wings, which are then dumped in places like Jamaica, destroying the local poultry industry completely. Thanks, Uncle Sam! I found that out on the BBC, not CNN.

    Do you have proof? And we have developed a lot of innovations in the world but apparently your anti-American colored glasses have kept you from seeing that.


    Good things to come out of the US include jazz, rock and roll, funk, and hip-hop. I don't count blues, not because I don't like it but because it's almost indistinguishable from certain African folk music.

    Jazz came from us as a spinoff of the blues, Rock and Roll got popular here, are you sure Hip hop came from the British?

    These art forms are actually the product of slavery, which caused a collision between white European cultural forms and black African ones.

    I know that.
    The US is basically an empire though. We have naval superiority. Our navy is basically everywhere.



    Cars and aeroplanes, believe it or not, were not invented solely in the US. Neither were movies, although it became a huge industry in the US unlike in other countries. The US is good at selling its myth, both to itself and others.

    Actually, the first airplane was invented in the USA.
    The Airplane was invented by the Wright brothers Orville and Wilbur after a series of tests and trials; the first officially recorded flight of their airplane was on December 23, 1903 in North Carolina in the United States. The plane named as the Wright Flyer flew for 12 seconds and traversed a distance of 120 feet; it was built of wood and had an engine of 12 horsepower.

    www.blurtit.com...

    As for films, it is arguable who invented them first, but we invented the first motion pictures…
    The first machine patented in the United States that showed animated pictures or movies was a device called the "wheel of life" or "zoopraxiscope". Patented in 1867 by William Lincoln, moving drawings or photographs were watched through a slit in the zoopraxiscope. However, this was a far cry from motion pictures as we know them today. Modern motion picture making began with the invention of the motion picture camera.
    The Frenchman Louis Lumiere is often credited as inventing the first motion picture camera in 1895. But in truth, several others had made similar inventions around the same time as Lumiere. What Lumiere invented was a portable motion-picture camera, film processing unit and projector called the Cinematographe, three functions covered in one invention.
    inventors.about.com...

    The US has given the world modern business culture. Whether that's something thw world will survive is for the future.

    We have jump started your economies after World War II during the cold war...


    Reading more of Kennan, you'll find out that that was done so the US would have markets for its exports. THAT'S why US products have been successful. Europe had to rebuild. America didn't even have to retool, because the military-industrial complex still pumped out many, many weapons during the post-WWII period.

    Europe wouldn’t have been able to rebuild without the Marshall Plan.

    continued



    reply posted on 24-1-2009 @ 12:08 AM by Frankidealist35
    Originally posted by rich23
    Originally posted by Frankidealist35
    Back during the cold war the two most advanced nations in the world were us and the soviet union. We had beaten them during the space race because of our math and our science.


    As I pointed out, getting the cream of Nazi rocket scientists gave you a head start... but all you did was get to the moon first.

    Do you have proof? And we've done more than that. We've mapped out the Universe and we've helped with the international space program and we've done much more.


    First satellite; Sputnik.
    First man in space: Yuri Gagarin.

    First man to the moon? Was one of ours. Who ultimately won the space race in the end? We did.


    The soviets got the first spacewalk, too, but didn't try to get to the moon. They concentrated on trying to get reliable technology and an earth orbit station. But partly because they didn't exploit their empire commercially the way the US did, they didn't have so much money to throw around.

    I don't see your point. So are you a communist sympathizer or something? We clearly made a lot of advancements during the space race not limited to space travel. Actually, we launched the first person to space. Here is a non propgandized history of the space race:
    www.newseum.org...

    I saw an interview with a very disappointed NASA guy who was really sad that the US hadn't gone back to the moon. He said, we're like a dog that barks at a car until it parks, then pees on it and walks off."




    We allow more immigrants than anyone else in the world.


    Well someone's got to do the menial jobs.
    I dislike how I say something and you respond with something anti-American.

    We are 3rd in oil exports to other nations.


    Er... now I thought this was probably wrong, so I googled "oil exporting countries" and this was the first link I found...
    Wait, you're right. We're the third highest oil producing country in the world. My mistake.
    The Daily Report, produced by the Hoover Institution Office of Public Affairs, is a collection of online news articles by or about Hoover scholars. This report updates you on the ideas and activities generated by our scholars that are covered by the media.

    www.hoover.org...

    Canada remained the largest exporter of total petroleum in November, exporting 2.528 million barrels per day to the United States, which is a decrease from last month (.059 thousand barrels per day). The second largest exporter of total petroleum was Saudi Arabia with 1.488 million barrels per day.


    We have Microsoft...

    My mistake.


    A little look at their history reveals that Bill Gates' real coup was to realise the value of the DOS operating system, which had already been written. Some sharp practice later and he had MS-DOS, a proprietary product which was the backbone of a commercial empire which is loathed because of its vicous business practices and its hawking a product which has at times been demonstrably inferior to Linux and Apple, and is still full of holes.

    There was a brilliant comment from the judge who oversaw a lawsuit between Microsoft and Netscape. Microsoft were insisting that Windows couldn't be run without IE. The judge retired to his chambers with a laptop and a friendly geek, to emerge a short while later with a fully-functioning laptop running Windows without IE. He said something like, (I'm quoting from memory here):

    Yes, we all know how Microsoft got this far, however, they still dominate the market for some reason. Despite their inconvenience and their buggy software. But, I can't argue that they haven't made contributions.


    We have the best military in the world.


    That's how you run an empire. If you didn't have an empire, you wouldn't need one.

    Just saying.

    Yes, we've intervened in other nations a bit too much, but, we're still first class world citizens here.


    A bit too much? Around four million dead in Indo-China? A few million more dead thanks to US-backed coups in Chile, Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Venezuela, Uruguay, Salvador, Nicaragua, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Greece, Guatemala... the list goes on and on.
    I think there is an awakening going on here and lots of people here are realizing that we can't just go in and interfere with other nations. Also, keep in mind that a lot of our interfering in the past was due to the cold war, and we were fighting the Soviets at the time.

    You really do need to bone up on your country's history. And not the bowdlerised pap your textbooks give you.

    [edit on 23-1-2009 by rich23]
    I didn't make this into a thread where I bash all other countries because I think America is the best. I just wanted to ask why we think we need to rule other nations. I don't need this anti-American BS in this thread.


    reply posted on 24-1-2009 @ 01:37 AM by rich23
    Originally posted by Frankidealist35To answer you, I would say that the death squads aren’t the direct cause of us, and we do not support them. The Bush administration seemed to have made you delusioned with the United States of America.


    You have no idea. You actually think it started with Bush!

    Learn some history. The death squads have a long and inglorious history. Iran in the fifties - Kermit Roosevelt, scion of the family, OSS operative and big in the newly formed CIA, overthrew the democratically elected government of Mossadegh because he wanted to kick out the multinationals and use Iran's oil wealth to benefit its people. Kermit imposed the Shah as the head of a puppet regime (!) which was backed by SAVAK, a CIA-trained secret police that made the KGB look like fluffy bunnies.

    When the CIA again orchestrated a coup in Indonesia, they circulated lists of people to be executed. Teachers, unionists, opposition leaders.

    When the CIA put Pinochet in "to save the Chileans from themselves" people were rounded up in football stadia and massacred.

    Death squads were trained in the School of the Americas in Fort Benning Georgia. The place got such a bad name that in the seventies it was renamed the Western Hemispheric Institute for Security and Co-operation, but the same methods of torture and execution are taught under the euphemism of "counter-insurgency".

    When United Fruit wanted the Guatemalan government overthrown, the US Government engineered that. No wonder. The major shareholders all held posts in the cabinet of the day. Again, death squads.

    Go look it up. But be sure you get the full picture. Guatemala, for example. US histories tend to miss out the fact that when its government imposed compulsory purchase orders on United Fruit for land so that peasants could farm it and feed themselves, they offered to pay UF the value of the land that UF itself had declared. UF then ran whining to the CIA saying it was undervalued.

    Well, it was. It had been undervalued, by United Fruit itself, to get out of paying taxes.

    I fail to see how enforcing the monroe doctrine means no Democracy.


    Democracy, in South America, means that US companies who own most of the countries' infrastructure and land, won't be so profitable. That's why the US doesn't want anyone else interfering with "their little corner of the world".

    I fail to see how enforcing the Monroe doctrine means that we enforce death squads. And I also fail to see what death squads we support, and, I fail to see proof of us supporting these death squads, other than from your hatred of American policies in other nations. We do not support Iran or other terrorist regimes.


    You fail to see a great deal because your knowledge of history is pitiful. The US turned Iran from a modernising democracy in the fifties to a mediaeval theocracy in the eighties. The oppression of democracy imposed by the CIA caused people to turn to the mullahs. When they overthrew the Shah, the US embassy was overrun because they all knew that's who was propping him up. They called it "the nest of spies".

    If you still believe all of that anti-American propaganda on the net, good luck.


    Your ignroance knows no bounds. I suspect - indeed I hope - you're quite young. If you're older than sixteen you have no excuse. you think it's to do with outsourcing and you think the multinationals are "out of control". Duh. Most of the time, they are intimately connected with the US Government. It's not just Cheney and Halliburton, you know. It goes back much farther than that.

    I don’t agree with the war on Iraq. That doesn’t make it illegal though.


    No, that's down to the Geneva Convention, which makes wars of aggression - you know, unprovoked wars - illegal, and indeed the worst of all war crimes, because they contain the seeds of all others. That's why, in the UK, for example, Bliar had to pressure our Attorney-General to come up with a legal justification. Our military didn't want to go in because they knew it was illegal. The fact that you can get a tame lawyer to make a flimsy argument doesn't make it legal.

    It's just a sad fact that the winners never get done for war crimes.

    if the Iraq war was about oil, why weren’t oil prices lower for the time that we invaded Iraq, etc?


    I've already given other reasons. It wasn't just about oil. Did you watch the real history of oil? Like I said? Go away and watch it. Rob Newman's no kinder to British history.

    Wake up. It's about profit for a few people. The oil companies like when oil prices rise. More money for them!

    Without our advancements in science there would be no way of knowing that your food is safe or not.


    Can you possibly back that statement up? It seems very general and in fact almost meaningless to me.

    ...you can do what you want, without getting poisoned. You know what medicine is okay or not. There are a lot of medications you can take for sicknesses. I don’t see how you could deny the benefits we’ve made to the world with science.


    And ALL of that is down to the good old USA. Listen to yourself. Ludicrous. No other country does any science. Pathetic insularity. What you perceive as anti-Americanism is simply a better knowledge of US foreign policy combined with an unwillingness to allow sweeping and ignorant statements like this to go unchallenged.

    I have to ask. Do you have any proof of this? Other than ramblings from crazy conspiracy theorists that hate America?


    Go and find out all you can about Operation Paperclip. Why should i post any sources for you if you've already damned them as "conspiracy theorists".

    You know, I could go through and provide sources for all of this stuff. But you'd only say it was "crazy conspiracy theorists that hate America". People like Noam Chomsky. People who write books. Only a few years ago the New York Times finally admitted that the CIA overthrew Allende. You could also try finding The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence, which in the original edition I've got is heavily censored. Don't brag about freedom of the press. You don't even notice what a supine

    We created the FDA. Without the FDA your foods wouldn’t probably be as healthy.


    Also, do you really think that because your FDA exists, my food is safer? Ludicrous. Again, your insularity and arrogance shows.

    I am aware of the recent corruption in the FDA.


    That's nice, because the example I quoted is almost thirty years old. Good to see little has changed.

    The good that it has done outweighs the bad that it has done in the world.


    If you want to back up that statement, perhaps you could produce a list of good v. bad things the FDA has done. You might start by explaining how your FDA makes my world safer. As I've explained, YOU don't know when you're eating GM food: WE know we're not.

    And you might want to follow it up by examining the pros and cons of Bovine Growth Hormone and the role of Monsanto in pushing it.

    We in the UK don't have GM food. In the US, I think, you're not allowed to know whether it's in your food or not.


    Then how do you know if your food is healthy or not?


    It might surprise you to learn that the US is not the only country in the world with food regulation. But of course, no other country would develop such a radical notion! Do other countries have electricity or flush toilets, or sit on chairs?

    Okay, then without being specific...


    No. Don't be specific. That might bring you out of the airy-fairy world of generality into the unforgiving world of cold fact. You actually think Fox News is a boon to the world? Owned and run by an Australian. US citizen now, of course...

    I remember when I was living in the US during the illegal invasion of Iraq, the coverage on CNN had a banner across the bottom of the screen, "America strikes back". Strikes back? No, your media's not controlled by the corporations, not at all. I had a Polish friend who said, "it's like a slicker version of how the Russians used to propagandise when they wanted to invade Afghanistan or Czechoslovakia". He knew propaganda when he saw it.

    Good things to come out of the US include jazz, rock and roll, funk, and hip-hop. I don't count blues, not because I don't like it but because it's almost indistinguishable from certain African folk music.


    Jazz came from us as a spinoff of the blues, Rock and Roll got popular here, are you sure Hip hop came from the British?


    Where did I say that? I leave my quotation in so you can see I didn't. All those musics were created by black people. Jazzers heard a lot of European avant-garde music and incorporated the dissonance into what they did. That's an oversimplification, but it is nonetheless true. Willie "The Lion" Smith and Duke Ellington, for example, both liked Stravinsky. Your knowledge of musical history is as patchy as your knowledge of US foreign policy. And as a musician I've studied the history of the music I love.

    Cars and aeroplanes, believe it or not, were not invented solely in the US. Neither were movies...


    Read what I said again. Flying machines and movies, television, all sorts of things, tend to be independently invented around the same time by different people. There were people working on aeroplanes in Europe at the same time as the Wright brothers. If you knew anything about the history of science, you'd know it's not as clear cut as you make out.

    And the US used the Marshall Plan negotiations to dismantle UK trading relations.


    reply posted on 24-1-2009 @ 01:49 AM by rich23
    Originally posted by Frankidealist35
    Now, what has the UK done for the world?


    The UK was an empire and of course justified its police actions round the world with a lot of patronising guff about exporting British ideas, just as the US is doing now. I'm not interested in justifying that period of UK history, it doesn't seem particularly defensible to me.

    So you’re saying it’s okay that the UK was an empire and not the US? Sounds biased to me.

    Here's where I stop bothering to reply to your posts. Why?

    Because you can't read!

    This is not the first time you've got completely the wrong end of the stick. Any rational person reading what I wrote would recognise that I'm NOT saying it's OK that the UK was an empire. Quite the reverse.

    I said - read it again:

    I'm not interested in justifying that period of UK history, it doesn't seem particularly defensible to me.


    You either can't read or can't understand plain English.

    Because I'm not puffed up with nationalist pride, I don't see it as the UK being better than everyone else. I'm not even attacking the US, particularly. I'm just trying to deny ignorance and suggest to you that not all is as you think. You really need to read some more, and put more effort into making sure you understand it.

    This isn't a game of tit-for-tat. You asked why do we have to rule over the world, and I'm answering that the root of it is money and greed. That's how it works with all empires, the British Empire NOT excepted. I gave a couple of examples of benefits of British rule, but only because you asked. I don't think it justifies slavery, or the massacres in India, or any of that rubbish. But you asked, so I supplied.

    But I gave concrete examples drawn from personal experience, not vague posturings of sheer wind.

    There's no point in debating someone who can't read what I've written.


    reply posted on 24-1-2009 @ 02:23 AM by Frankidealist35
    Originally posted by rich23
    Originally posted by Frankidealist35To answer you, I would say that the death squads aren’t the direct cause of us, and we do not support them. The Bush administration seemed to have made you delusioned with the United States of America.
    Originally posted by rich23
    Originally posted by Frankidealist35To answer you, I would say that the death squads aren’t the direct cause of us, and we do not support them. The Bush administration seemed to have made you delusioned with the United States of America.


    You have no idea. You actually think it started with Bush!

    No…


    Learn some history. The death squads have a long and inglorious history. Iran in the fifties - Kermit Roosevelt, scion of the family, OSS operative and big in the newly formed CIA, overthrew the democratically elected government of Mossadegh because he wanted to kick out the multinationals and use Iran's oil wealth to benefit its people. Kermit imposed the Shah as the head of a puppet regime (!) which was backed by SAVAK, a CIA-trained secret police that made the KGB look like fluffy bunnies.

    And we don’t support Iran anymore. Welcome to modern history.

    When the CIA again orchestrated a coup in Indonesia, they circulated lists of people to be executed. Teachers, unionists, opposition leaders.

    When the CIA put Pinochet in "to save the Chileans from themselves" people were rounded up in football stadia and massacred.

    Yes… the CIA has had a dark secretive history.

    Death squads were trained in the School of the Americas in Fort Benning Georgia. The place got such a bad name that in the seventies it was renamed the Western Hemispheric Institute for Security and Co-operation, but the same methods of torture and execution are taught under the euphemism of "counter-insurgency".

    I do not deny this. However, it would be more accurate to blame the people at the top for it. I just disagree with you trying to bash the whole country from what the small few people did at the top.

    When United Fruit wanted the Guatemalan government overthrown, the US Government engineered that. No wonder. The major shareholders all held posts in the cabinet of the day. Again, death squads.

    Go look it up. But be sure you get the full picture. Guatemala, for example. US histories tend to miss out the fact that when its government imposed compulsory purchase orders on United Fruit for land so that peasants could farm it and feed themselves, they offered to pay UF the value of the land that UF itself had declared. UF then ran whining to the CIA saying it was undervalued.

    I do not like the military. I’m not a crazy right winged person. It just seems like you’re dodging the argument that I made that the USA has advanced liberal arts and technology by attacking the actions of our military.

    Democracy, in South America, means that US companies who own most of the countries' infrastructure and land, won't be so profitable. That's why the US doesn't want anyone else interfering with "their little corner of the world".

    Again, I do not like the military and what they do.

    You fail to see a great deal because your knowledge of history is pitiful. The US turned Iran from a modernising democracy in the fifties to a mediaeval theocracy in the eighties. The oppression of democracy imposed by the CIA caused people to turn to the mullahs. When they overthrew the Shah, the US embassy was overrun because they all knew that's who was propping him up. They called it "the nest of spies".

    I do not like the military.

    Your ignroance knows no bounds. I suspect - indeed I hope - you're quite young. If you're older than sixteen you have no excuse. you think it's to do with outsourcing and you think the multinationals are "out of control". Duh. Most of the time, they are intimately connected with the US Government. It's not just Cheney and Halliburton, you know. It goes back much farther than that.

    You seem to hate the nation because of our military. You’re ignorance of what the citizens of the nation are capable of astounds me. It seems to me like you are trying to paint America as a war mongering nation but there are an equal amount of anti-war people like myself who dislike the military for what they have done.

    I don’t agree with the war on Iraq. That doesn’t make it illegal though.


    No, that's down to the Geneva Convention, which makes wars of aggression - you know, unprovoked wars - illegal, and indeed the worst of all war crimes, because they contain the seeds of all others. That's why, in the UK, for example, Bliar had to pressure our Attorney-General to come up with a legal justification. Our military didn't want to go in because they knew it was illegal. The fact that you can get a tame lawyer to make a flimsy argument doesn't make it legal.

    You’re just preaching to the quire. I disagree with the Iraq war, but, I think the reason why Bush and co went to war with them was due to an intelligence failure. I’ve read some differentiating accounts on what happened with the Iraq war and why we went there and I think it was because of an intelligence failure—we may still have gone to war anyways—but I don’t know.
    if the Iraq war was about oil, why weren’t oil prices lower for the time that we invaded Iraq, etc?


    Wake up. It's about profit for a few people. The oil companies like when oil prices rise. More money for them!

    You’re just preaching to the quire.

    Can you possibly back that statement up? It seems very general and in fact almost meaningless to me.
    Yes I could. I know it’s a government website but it’s on key.

    esearch sponsored by the Office of Science has produced many key scientific breakthroughs and contributed to this Nation’s well-being:
    Enabling World-Class R&D
    Helping to Develop the Internet
    Computing for Science’s Sake
    Improving the Science of Climate Change Research
    Pioneering the Human Genome Project
    Enhancing National Security
    Improving Energy Security
    Advancing Nuclear Medicine
    Detecting and Diagnosing Medical Conditions
    Treating Blindness - and Other Neurological Disorders
    Expanding the Frontiers of Discovery
    p/quote]
    www.er.doe.gov...

    Also, here’s a website devoted to NASA’s 40 year history: american..._almanac.tripod.com/nasabirt.htm


    And ALL of that is down to the good old USA. Listen to yourself. Ludicrous. No other country does any science. Pathetic insularity. What you perceive as anti-Americanism is simply a better knowledge of US foreign policy combined with an unwillingness to allow sweeping and ignorant statements like this to go unchallenged.

    Listen to yourself. You’re denying that the USA has contributed anything to the world with regards to science. You’ve asked for me to provide links proving that we have contributed to science. Saying that we have done nothing is also equally ignorant.

    Go and find out all you can about Operation Paperclip. Why should i post any sources for you if you've already damned them as "conspiracy theorists".

    I used to be interested in that stuff but now I’ve come to realize that it’s propaganda to get people to hate America. I think there are more important conspiracy theorists to know about.

    You know, I could go through and provide sources for all of this stuff. But you'd only say it was "crazy conspiracy theorists that hate America". People like Noam Chomsky. People who write books. Only a few years ago the New York Times finally admitted that the CIA overthrew Allende. You could also try finding The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence, which in the original edition I've got is heavily censored. Don't brag about freedom of the press. You don't even notice what a supine

    We have plenty of freedom of the press here. There are a few cases where the press isn’t allowed to be critical of the government but I don’t think that happens often here.

    We created the FDA. Without the FDA your foods wouldn’t probably be as healthy.


    Also, do you really think that because your FDA exists, my food is safer? Ludicrous. Again, your insularity and arrogance shows.

    I think without the FDA a lot of food would be unsafe. It may have not done anything lately but the FDA has helped the world, at least, in my opinion.

    The good that it has done outweighs the bad that it has done in the world.


    If you want to back up that statement, perhaps you could produce a list of good v. bad things the FDA has done. You might start by explaining how your FDA makes my world safer. As I've explained, YOU don't know when you're eating GM food: WE know we're not.
    Here is a good article of what the FDA has done in 2005.

    www.globalregulatory.com...

    (will continue the next post)


    reply posted on 24-1-2009 @ 02:23 AM by Frankidealist35

    It might surprise you to learn that the US is not the only country in the world with food regulation. But of course, no other country would develop such a radical notion! Do other countries have electricity or flush toilets, or sit on chairs?

    No, but my argument was that without the FDA, I question whether those agencies would have gotten where they are. The FDA I argue could have been the start of something like that.

    No. Don't be specific. That might bring you out of the airy-fairy world of generality into the unforgiving world of cold fact. You actually think Fox News is a boon to the world? Owned and run by an Australian. US citizen now, of course...

    He’s a US citizen nonetheless. We need news agencies critical of the other side. They may lie about being fair and balanced. However, I think that most news agencies are somewhat left leaning, this agency is somewhat right leaning, I think it’s okay on that basis. You actually think that BBC is a boon to the world? It’s just another British government propaganda news agency… you don’t think you guys do it as well?

    I remember when I was living in the US during the illegal invasion of Iraq, the coverage on CNN had a banner across the bottom of the screen, "America strikes back". Strikes back? No, your media's not controlled by the corporations, not at all. I had a Polish friend who said, "it's like a slicker version of how the Russians used to propagandise when they wanted to invade Afghanistan or Czechoslovakia". He knew propaganda when he saw it.

    At the time of the invasion of Iraq it was unpatriotic to criticize it. Again, your interpretation of the Iraq war being illegal, does not mean that it is. All of the people in the media were just trying to rally people to the cause. It was just after 9-11 or so. No one wanted to speak out.


    Where did I say that? I leave my quotation in so you can see I didn't. All those musics were created by black people.

    So now you’re racist?

    Jazzers heard a lot of European avant-garde music and incorporated the dissonance into what they did. That's an oversimplification, but it is nonetheless true. Willie "The Lion" Smith and Duke Ellington, for example, both liked Stravinsky. Your knowledge of musical history is as patchy as your knowledge of US foreign policy. And as a musician I've studied the history of the music I love.

    Uhh, again, you just seem to hate America for no reason. Elvis made rock and roll popular here. And yes, I believe that Jazz was created as a result of the blues, which was made popular by the African Americans here, and the songs were about slavery and the like. And what difference does it make if The Lion and Duke Ellington both liked Stravinsky?

    Cars and aeroplanes, believe it or not, were not invented solely in the US. Neither were movies...


    Read what I said again. Flying machines and movies, television, all sorts of things, tend to be independently invented around the same time by different people. There were people working on aeroplanes in Europe at the same time as the Wright brothers. If you knew anything about the history of science, you'd know it's not as clear cut as you make out.
    I know that, but you’re denying that the USA has ever contributed anything to the world. I was just proving you wrong.

    And the US used the Marshall Plan negotiations to dismantle UK trading relations.

    It was your fault for not being more tougher with the negotiations against the people at the top then.


    [edit on 24-1-2009 by Frankidealist35]


    reply posted on 24-1-2009 @ 02:28 AM by Frankidealist35
    Originally posted by rich23
    Originally posted by Frankidealist35
    Now, what has the UK done for the world?


    The UK was an empire and of course justified its police actions round the world with a lot of patronising guff about exporting British ideas, just as the US is doing now. I'm not interested in justifying that period of UK history, it doesn't seem particularly defensible to me.

    So you’re saying it’s okay that the UK was an empire and not the US? Sounds biased to me.


    Here's where I stop bothering to reply to your posts. Why?

    Because you can't read!
    Ah, so just because I accuse you of having a bias against the US, and you accuse me of having a bias towards the US, I can't read??

    This is not the first time you've got completely the wrong end of the stick. Any rational person reading what I wrote would recognise that I'm NOT saying it's OK that the UK was an empire. Quite the reverse.


    I said - read it again:

    I'm not interested in justifying that period of UK history, it doesn't seem particularly defensible to me.


    You either can't read or can't understand plain English.

    No, I read it, I just would argue that the USA is not doing things like the British were doing as you've suggested. I would rather suspend judgment of what the military has been doing lately and then decide whether we're just doing this for our "empire" or whether it's really for national security.


    Because I'm not puffed up with nationalist pride, I don't see it as the UK being better than everyone else. I'm not even attacking the US, particularly. I'm just trying to deny ignorance and suggest to you that not all is as you think. You really need to read some more, and put more effort into making sure you understand it.

    I don't like the military. You just seemed to have taken this as an opportunity to bash America, when, in reality I was just asking why we feel like we have the right to rule the world. You assumed that I was asserting that we had the right, but, that's not the point of this thread. You are being off topic. You can't read. Can you?


    This isn't a game of tit-for-tat. You asked why do we have to rule over the world, and I'm answering that the root of it is money and greed. That's how it works with all empires, the British Empire NOT excepted. I gave a couple of examples of benefits of British rule, but only because you asked. I don't think it justifies slavery, or the massacres in India, or any of that rubbish. But you asked, so I supplied.

    But I gave concrete examples drawn from personal experience, not vague posturings of sheer wind.

    There's no point in debating someone who can't read what I've written.

    Dude, you're totally missing the point of the thread. I asked about why we felt we had the right-- I didn't say we were the best at everything.
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