The KEY problem when discussing this conflict is the way people with different views on the situation are classified as either for or against, and this is then taken personally or with prejudice to fuel more debate.

There really are SO many conflicting views on this whole crisis, it is easy to be caught up in the emotion and passion of your feelings for what you feel is true or real. It is extremely difficult, but we all need to think what are the best actions in order to achieve realistic happiness for ALL people in that region. Please don't suggest silly, primitive slogans that sympathise with your Inner-Political views.

Also, a few things that MUST be said:

- NOT all Jews around the world support or condone the actions of the ISRAELI politicians. Thus, it is really stupid to build on anti-Israel and/or anti-Jewish sentiment to push either view. Even the country as a whole is unfair to rally against because it is really the Government that is making and allowing these actions to continue. The Israeli Government should be the target of protests, not the whole country.

- It is grossly unfair to label all Palestinians as terrorists. I see this being done by many to fuel their pro-Israel stance. Palestinians are people and deserve to be treated as such. You CANNOT just throw all Palestinians into the "part of the problem Terrorist" basket, thus "its ok to let their civilians die." REMOVE your strong feelings of allegiance to Israel for a moment - ordinary fathers, mothers, children and whole families are being killed and torn apart. The traumatisation of the survivors is perhaps the most dangerous consequence of this. If your whole family was killed by the Israeli army at a young age and you survive...you know the rest.

- Please stop referring to this situation as Genocide. The Israeli government is NOT attempting to systematically annihilate the Palestinians as a people. (Not defending their block aid/controlling policies, but they actually COULD systematically wipe out all Palestinians if they willed. They have had opportunities to do this and they have not.) They want to stop threats from religious fanatics against their country - yes this situation is destroying the morale of both people. But the policies that the Government is using is resulting in mass civilian casualties (again, this is NOT its intention, but is in reality what is happening as a result of these policies.)

- As many have probably noticed: this whole issue is touching the heart of many around the world. This might be the most delicate issue of our time in terms of global peace and stability; we must think before we act.

In addition, two irrefutable facts remain:

1) For every civilian Palestinian life that is taken, Israel (unfortunately, the country as a WHOLE) is losing the support, patience and sympathy of most people around the world (those not living in the area.) This is not something you can ignore, and Israeli politicians should be much more mindful of this.

2) For every Islamic extremist fanatic that continues to fire rockets and shells into Israeli territory, you ARE also losing sympathy for ALL Palestinians as a whole. If you REALLY care about your family and friends, STOP firing. Doing this intentionally among civilians is not just cowardly but grossly irresponsible for the welfare of your people.

Less violence and more dialogue will result in a more positive outcome.

Very good post Slayer.You've expressed how I've been feeling recently.The thread about the US voting against food being a right was a case in point for me.But I thought about it and it seems that the position that most of us come from ,with some exceptions,are purely intellectual.
We don't what it's like to starve or be bombed on a regular basis or experience alot of the hardships other people in the world.We are very lucky in the grand scheme of things.

Thats not to say we can't discuss things but it seems to me that we need new thinking about the Arab /Isreali conflict-a new start and dynamic to find a way forward.We all hate to see little kids and the eldery injured on any side and want to help but it's frustrating.What can we do?Protest outside an Isreali Embassy?Give money to an aid agency contact our MP's/congress people?That would be a start.

Preaching hate helps no one,thats obvious.Be postive,educate yourself about the history of both sides of the conflict but above all remember they are people like me and you.Like I said good post that speaks common sense.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
... I can see both sides and all I see and hear about mostly are children bieng hurt and killed.

However it does means less people in the future to keep the war going - always look on the positive side of it!

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I hope this really sinks in and maybe God/Allah/Jesus willing...

Well, neither of those three clowns exist so, no help there - it's all down to people to make their own fate.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I am a member of the human race and if there are Aliens or Ghosts or a Great Spirit how do I explain this nightmare?

You won't have to. A) Ghosts don't care, as they're dead anywaze. B) Aliens, would be very advanced, in this case culturally, and would understand that the human race is in its infancy and such strifes and hatred and prejudices are no doubt common in new, developing civilisations.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
My only excuse would be that me and my fellow human beings are
Pathetic!

Well, you might be, but I'm not - I'm perfectly happy to let them blow each other to bits. Eliminate the waste, I say.

I'm rational and a realist. I know that nothing I think or do will make a difference to a bunch of muppets whose lives are dominated by made-up stories of hatred, bigotry and myth. They've been bred to hate each other, sadly. That's just the way it is.

However, if you care so much and it bothers you so much, why not go over there and do some Red Cross/Humanitarian aid work?

I don't and won't simply because I really don't care. Let them kill each other - it's the only way for people of a religious background to understand themselves!




[edit on 6-1-2009 by noonebutme]

[edit on 6-1-2009 by noonebutme]

Does anyone else think the entirety of war is based on just 2 simple things everytime? Money or religion (religion is the main one, loads of things come under the money category - oil etc.)

Everyone either needs to take more of a British stance being that we just kinda mong out at the sidelines wondering whats going on, or.... we just need some kind of drug that supresses emotions for the masses.. equilibrium if you will.

Interesting..

[edit on 6-1-2009 by ItsallCrazy]

Originally posted by ItsallCrazy
Does anyone else think the entirety of war is based on just 2 simple things everytime? Money or religion (religion is the main one, loads of things come under the money category - oil etc.)

Everyone either needs to take more of a British stance being that we just kinda mong out at the sidelines wondering whats going on, or.... we just need some kind of drug that supresses emotions for the masses.. equilibrium if you will.

Interesting..

[edit on 6-1-2009 by ItsallCrazy]

All wars in the end are waged over

RESOURCE CONTROL

Resources can be: Energy, food (still energy), land, people (slaves), water, etc. Most of the time they never come out and admit that over abundance of people is the same as insufficient resources so a killing field is created and various justifications can be used like religious differences, poor genes, crime, etc.

If you have enough water for 100 people and then realize that of the 150 people you do have, 70 are say green colored while you and the rest are golden colored you make a leap so by hook or crook attempt to dominate the water. You might use religious differences, customs variations, wardrobe, intellect or anything other than the green skin color as the excuse.

In this way it becomes less apparent that your simply intent on extincting the greens so there is enough in this case water to go around! Things like money are a human construct and are used as "motivation" for war but not the actual root of war. For instance the USA has businesses that are known as "DEFENSE CONTRACTORS!" These businesses make weapons that our own government purchases as well as sells weapons to the highest bidder in the global market. This makes the entire process of defending ourselves into a business.

Never mind the preemptive aspect of our current wars (attacks, not defense), if this was true protection for the USA the US Military would produce ans fashion all of their own weapons and directly pay those involved for their time and expertise. They would never, ever, ever share or sell any of these weapons to other nations. With the current setup whoever controls the process can arbitrarily decide that for the greater good the military can be used to "DEAL" with Americans facing a staggering economic depression.

Yes, inevitably diminishing resources will cause those who decide who is expendable to use any of the above excuses and reduce resource demand. In the Great Depression 7 million Americans starved to death. Starving your victims is less resource intensive than shooting them. The remaining population (the more healthy ones) is rounded up (drafted) and sent off to fight in whatever war is going on.



[edit on 6-1-2009 by Alpha_Magnum]

[edit on 6-1-2009 by Alpha_Magnum]

Thanks OP for posting this.

The first half of you your post was exactly in my head a minute before reading yours, you've taken the words out of my mouth on that part.
And for the most i agree.

I just cant almost bare to see so many inocent people suffer any more.
Just as i cant bare people justifying those murders, we can all have our opinions of course, it just makes my stomach turn.

While it is sad to see relationships deteriorate over this, I'm not sure a person defending the actions on either side is a person I would actually want to know anyway.

Thankfully, I don't have such concerns in my family and work life, because all the people I've spoken to here are clear about who is wrong in this situation. I've had no debate or discussion in my life since this began where Israel is even considered to be right in their actions.

It's the same with Homophobia, Racism, etc. I don't want to know a racist, or a bigot.
I don't relate to highly religious people, and I don't accept hateful views in any way. So all of these people are removed from my life as and when. The truly intelligent people remain and become very good friends and colleagues for decades.

I cannot tolerate hatred, especially when it is based on ignorance of reality or lack of effort to understand.
I don't want to know people like that as they have nothing to offer me intellectually, emotionally, spiritually or in any other way really.

Maybe it's just me, but acquaintances come and go, their opinions and affiliations mean little to me from one moment to the next. And the chances are that your real close friends, you already know what their opinions would be, otherwise you probably wouldn't be so close to them in the first place.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
Maybe it's just me, but acquaintances come and go, their opinions and affiliations mean little to me from one moment to the next. And the chances are that your real close friends, you already know what their opinions would be, otherwise you probably wouldn't be so close to them in the first place.

Why in this part of what you wrote above did you choose to jump from talking about yourself (their opinions and affiliations mean little to me) to talking about "YOU" ? Is that "YOU" the OP and if so how do you really know if he is capable of developing enduring friendships? I'm not picking on him by the way or you, but aren't you simply assuming that entire second part based on what your concept of "real friends" and "acquaintances" is?

Another question comes to mind on this matter and I will pose it to you. Presuming you're a heterosexual male and decided to pair bond with a female and get married; Would you consider this person a "real true friend" and if so what happens when she chooses to paint the living room mauve even though she didn't know that you hate that color with a passion? Think on that, then read your statement above.

Originally posted by Alpha_Magnum

Originally posted by detachedindividual
Maybe it's just me, but acquaintances come and go, their opinions and affiliations mean little to me from one moment to the next. And the chances are that your real close friends, you already know what their opinions would be, otherwise you probably wouldn't be so close to them in the first place.

Why in this part of what you wrote above did you choose to jump from talking about yourself (their opinions and affiliations mean little to me) to talking about "YOU" ? Is that "YOU" the OP and if so how do you really know if he is capable of developing enduring friendships? I'm not picking on him by the way or you, but aren't you simply assuming that entire second part based on what your concept of "real friends" and "acquaintances" is?

Another question comes to mind on this matter and I will pose it to you. Presuming you're a heterosexual male and decided to pair bond with a female and get married; Would you consider this person a "real true friend" and if so what happens when she chooses to paint the living room mauve even though she didn't know that you hate that color with a passion? Think on that, then read your statement above.

Huh?

I meant "you" as in the "royal you", generally, a person.
Please don't over-think this. I was merely pointing out that I have little reason to fear disagreement with close friends on issues like this because we are so close and we think along the same lines, otherwise we probably wouldn't have been friends for long and developed such a close bond.

As for painting the living room a certain colour, I don't get hung up on ridiculous things like this.
My partner could paint the room any colour they want, regardless of my opinion, it's just a room.

Material objects, and especially decorating decisions, are of absolutely no consequence to me. I honestly don't understand why anyone would have a disagreement with their partner over the colour of a wall. If a relationship is hinged on such stupid things, then the relationship is probably an extremely shallow one.

Edit:
My theoretical MALE partner (I can legally marry in the UK, we are not backward in this regard), could decorate however he wants (and it would be FABULOUS!)
And yes, he would be a "real true friend", otherwise I wouldn't have married him.

[edit on 6-1-2009 by detachedindividual]

S&F for a brilliant thread.
Whatever your point of on the war, I think we an all agree that the innocent on both sides will suffer the most, not the people who started it.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
I meant "you" as in the "royal you", generally, a person.
Please don't over-think this. I was merely pointing out that I have little reason to fear disagreement with close friends on issues like this because we are so close and we think along the same lines, otherwise we probably wouldn't have been friends for long and developed such a close bond.

As for painting the living room a certain colour, I don't get hung up on ridiculous things like this.
My partner could paint the room any colour they want, regardless of my opinion, it's just a room.

Material objects, and especially decorating decisions, are of absolutely no consequence to me. I honestly don't understand why anyone would have a disagreement with their partner over the colour of a wall. If a relationship is hinged on such stupid things, then the relationship is probably an extremely shallow one.

Edit:
My theoretical MALE partner (I can legally marry in the UK, we are not backward in this regard), could decorate however he wants (and it would be FABULOUS!)
And yes, he would be a "real true friend", otherwise I wouldn't have married him.

A few things:
What you said was...

Maybe it's just me, but acquaintances come and go, their opinions and affiliations mean little to me from one moment to the next. And the chances are that your real close friends, you already know what their opinions would be, otherwise you probably wouldn't be so close to them in the first place.

Broken down you first state that since acquaintances are not friends you discount them entirely unless there is something in it for you. I realize you didn't say those words however you admit that these acquaintances do in fact come and go and from time to time offer opinions and state their affiliations. When you elevate someone from the status of an acquaintance to that of a "true friend" then their opinions mean something to you based on what you stated. Here I can construe that since you judge the level of involvement that there is something in it for you.

Next you move to the "chances are that" area that implies that your experiences with relationships represent the norm. This is when I asked that we assume for a moment that you had a wife and she painted a room some color you didn't fancy. The wife at some point could change her mind, take a stand, get a religion, want to explore her sexuality or any other of a million possible variables can develop over the course of a relationship. Here I was asking you what it is that truly determines what a "real friend" is since based on what you said, "you already know what their opinions would be, otherwise you probably wouldn't be so close to them in the first place."

So, if I were your wife and on this occasion I stated that I felt compelled to help the Palestinian refugees by issuing a check from our bank (painting the room mauve) and you had another opinion like the Israelis were perfectly justified along with the USA in imprisoning this terrorist race of Palestinians and shooting them like fish in a pot (insert your color here) would that put me back on the acquaintance list? Could a potential divorce arise over a different viewpoint?

Now, I had no idea about your sex, status or sexuality so this is why I asked to assume that you were in a typical m-f marriage. I would imagine that homosexuals are a bit different since men tend to relate differently than men and woman do. Women are maternal after all and without them humanity would go extinct. In posing that question I attempted to demonstrate how nothing is so simple regarding relationships.

Originally posted by ExamineAllViews
The KEY problem when discussing this conflict is the way people with different views on the situation are classified as either for or against, and this is then taken personally or with prejudice to fuel more debate.

There really are SO many conflicting views on this whole crisis, it is easy to be caught up in the emotion and passion of your feelings for what you feel is true or real. It is extremely difficult, but we all need to think what are the best actions in order to achieve realistic happiness for ALL people in that region. Please don't suggest silly, primitive slogans that sympathise with your Inner-Political views.

Less violence and more dialogue will result in a more positive outcome.

Right on.

I think you got a pretty good grip of the situation. I couldn’t agree more, both sides seem do not want to talk and just want their own agenda to be pushed into the global public view and both sides want the world to see them as the victims.

They both see it as if they can appear to be the victims then they are justified in their actions which leads not to winning or victories but more death and destruction and who is are the real victims?

Originally posted by detachedindividual
While it is sad to see relationships deteriorate over this, I'm not sure a person defending the actions on either side is a person I would actually want to know anyway.

That is a fair question, and I tried to address that in later posts maybe you might have glanced over them. We became friends here at ATS similar likes and dislikes and as I said when the war started they started spewing all kinds of racial and religious garbage which went completely against my grain.


I guess I was raised differently where a person’s religion is his own business and mine is mine and to respect somebody else’s beliefs even if runs contrary to mine, They are human beings after all. But to cross the line and to start making blanked statements on everybody and I would not support them on this so it ended.

Sadly, some people think the way to Peace is by fighting a war, and then others join in and support their 'team'.

There are always opposing views which can often be stated in a hot blooded manner.

All ATS members are my brothers and sisters, all Arabs and Jews are also my brothers and sisters, and we should be kind to them all, even at the most difficult times in our human family.

If you can't be nice or helpful to family members who have opposing views, then it's best to keep quiet.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by ExamineAllViews
The KEY problem when discussing this conflict is the way people with different views on the situation are classified as either for or against, and this is then taken personally or with prejudice to fuel more debate.

There really are SO many conflicting views on this whole crisis, it is easy to be caught up in the emotion and passion of your feelings for what you feel is true or real. It is extremely difficult, but we all need to think what are the best actions in order to achieve realistic happiness for ALL people in that region. Please don't suggest silly, primitive slogans that sympathise with your Inner-Political views.

Less violence and more dialogue will result in a more positive outcome.

Right on.

I think you got a pretty good grip of the situation. I couldn’t agree more, both sides seem do not want to talk and just want their own agenda to be pushed into the global public view and both sides want the world to see them as the victims.

They both see it as if they can appear to be the victims then they are justified in their actions which leads not to winning or victories but more death and destruction and who is are the real victims?

So, now I'm following along with this thread and it dawns on me as to what the message is...

You appear to have a better understanding of the global situation and want posters to behave as you see fit. You have stated as the OP that you are "ASHAMED OF YOUR FELLOW ATS MEMBERS" and that is a problem since it makes you selfish.

When people talk like you or exemplify you or reward you for your great post or patronize you or agree with you then all is well and you say, "Right On!" When people here express diverging opinions, support a particular view point or don't agree with you or don't cave into you then you are "ASHAMED" of them. You claim that you are tired of war. To that I say, "Sew Buttons!" Simply skip the threads that have any of the key words in the title?

We (as in all posters) can and will go back and fourth on current events as part of normal discourse. I believe that if you have issues with the other posters you should just ignore them but wanting people to post according to your particular wishes is pretty rediclous.

However it does means less people in the future to keep the war going - always look on the positive side of it!

Are you saying that it’s ok to let them kill innocent women and children?

Originally posted by SLAYER69
My only excuse would be that me and my fellow human beings are
Pathetic!

Well, you might be, but I'm not - I'm perfectly happy to let them blow each other to bits. Eliminate the waste, I say.

I don’t care if grown men want to kill each other either, but I’m worried about the innocent they always pay the highest price.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Are you saying that it’s ok to let them kill innocent women and children?

Yes. It is to me because I don't care about their children. It makes no difference to me.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I don’t care if grown men want to kill each other either, but I’m worried about the innocent they always pay the highest price.

Ok, that's fine and that's your right and your decision. I personally don't feel that way.

It's not my problem if those two societies are so backward, draconian and childish that their only way to solve issues is to hide behind the blanket of religious righteousness.

I'm not fussed it makes no different to me if children or "innocents" are dying -- every minute of every day people are dying for teh wrong reasons and I don't think about it. It makes no difference. To me, anywaze.

Life isn't fair, fact. No God will make it right. Only people will and only when they want to. And obviously... people don't.


[edit on 6-1-2009 by noonebutme]