I don't buy this whole thing about 'Jews' being 'a people' - Judaism is a religion and last time I checked the rules say you can convert to it without being born of a certain race - thus how can all this 'god's chosen people' bull hold any water anyway.

'Jews' are people belonging to a religion - religions don't warrant their own state. Palestinians on the other hand - and I'm not trying to be provocative I'm just stating a fact - are a people with common ancestry.

Most of the people in Israel today would struggle massively to show any lineage back to the time when 'god's chosen people' inhabited Israel. Jewish people forming Israel heralded from all around the world where they for the most part had lived for the best part of the last 1000 years. Are you telling me they didn't in this time marry/sex into local population / local converts?

So please cut all this 'god's chosen people' bull. If the 'jews' can have a state, then I say set aside some land and make an official Muslim homeland, Hindu homeland, Jehovah's Wintess homeland and move on out anyone who happens to be inhabiting said land before hand. Then maybe fence them up in a tiny area and deny them food and medicine.

Hell they might even get sick of it and - I dunno - react and fight back????

Palestinians on Gaza beaches have been shot at, shelled and bombed by the Israeli navy.

I can confirm this - I remember seeing a particulary disturbing news report that saw me - a robust twenty something young man - reduced to tears in front of my colleagues at work.

I think it was of a father who's daughter got blasted literally to pieces as he stood and watched feet away - by an Israeli shell on the beach. Israel said something like 'the shell fell short of it's intended military target which was several hundred meters inland' - yeah right...

This isn't the first or most latest time that young Israeli troops have fired upon civilians in Gaza totally unprovoked. I can imagine there is a real atmosphere of hate there, but it's not an excuse - it's called murder.

I also remember the case of the UK photographer who was shot from the border by an Israeli sniper when he was in Gaza - again - for no apparent reason. Obviously they didn't bank on him being British and the fall out hat followed. The family were subject to hate mail, and public insult by Israelis and also were treated with contempt by the Israeli government who did everything they could to prevent a full investigation.

People in Gaza have been treated like dogs. Maybe one good thing about this conflict is that it brings all this into the spotlight and hopefully people will demand concessions from Israel. The ideal situation would be that the US removes it's support and adopts a neutral standpoint. That way Israel would be forced to answer the UN resolutions which have clearly stated its actions are wrong - and if they don't act, then they will face embargoes.

I gave up buying any Israeli products several years ago - I'd advise anyone to do the same.

Originally posted by masonwatcher

Horrible source on the OP Masonwatcher. Viewing an issue based on propoganda from one side is pretty meaningless overall.

1) Hamas was lawfully, elected in an election insisted up on Israel and the Quartet. At the time Israel pushed for the election to undermine Fatah and to create divisions between physically separated Palestinians.

Were the voters fully informed on who they were voting for and was fear of reprisal for not voting for Hamas a factor? If the voters only information was propoganda and if they felt threatened the election had little meaning. We just saw a video of Hamas actually appearing to celebrate blowing up its own citizens during a parade and not even administering first aid to its own people.

2) Gaza has been under Israeli control every since the evacuation of illegal Israeli settlements; at a substantial compensation cost to the US taxpayer. Land, sea, air and borders have been under total Israeli control until arrangements were made to transfer the control of Rafa to Egypt. Again at a massive financial cost to the US taxpayer.

Would the situation there be any worse or better if we had zero involvement. I think our involvement and Israels loyalty to us bought with US taxpayer money is having a possitive impact to the level that is possible when dealing with a people ruled by a Terrorist organization. Were we to turn our backs on it altogether, I believe that Israel would be left with no choice other than to resort to all out war. Hundreds of thousands would be dead rather than the relatively small numbers we see now. The lesser of two evils is not necessarily an avoidable state of affairs.

3) Israel habitually conducted infrastructure demolitions, raids assassinations, blockades and built a wall around Gaza even during the cease fire.
4) The recent 6 months cease fire was not observed by Israel and had conducted 35 hits amongst Hamas party official using Kidon operatives.

Hamas launched thousands of missiles and grenades indiscriminately during the cease fire. The guilt is equally shared is it not. Both sides were wrong.

5) Palestinians on Gaza beaches have been shot at, shelled and bombed by the Israeli navy.

The fact is that Israel has been on the backs of the Gazans for as long as it has existed. That is the default position of Israel and this current conflict is a shift from terrible to horrendous.

Hamas launched a missile into a pre-school just within the last few hours. Do you suppose they felt threatened by the students?

The point I'm trying to make is that for every atrocity you can ascribe to Israel an equally disgusting act can be attributed to Hamas and the Palestinians. To have an honest discussion one must first admit that there are no innocent parties involved. To pick one side over the other requires a person to put the blinders on.

To get an idea who exactly you are defending or not defending, you have to lay the current conflict aside and look at the people ruling both sides independant of the current action.

Some of the the things I look for are:

Do they kill their own when they don't agree with the stance of the leaders?

Do they celebrate death and destruction our mourn its victims?

Do they aim their weapons at combatants or civilians?

Do they fight out in the open in uniform or hide behind civilians and children?

Do they protect their children and innocents or use them as weapons?

If one of their own changes religions or loyalties do they allow it or do they kill or jail them for their ideas or beliefs?

Do they allow free speech?

Do they have a free press?

Are their people able to join any religion they choose and practice it openly without fear?

What I see here is that we have two sides, equally wrong but for different reasons.

The Israeli Government is driven by a myopic view that includes only its people and does not consider the views of the other parties. The Palestinians are guilty of the same.

The Israeli people go to bed every night wondering if an Iranian made missile will land in one of their children's bedrooms during the night. The Palestinian people go to bed wondering when Israel will decide to take out the weapons cache under the mosque next door and will the weapon miss and hit them.

When Israeli Parents drop off their kids at school they have to wonder if a missile launched by the Palestinians will land in their childs class today. When the Palestinians drop their children at school they have to wonder will Israel discover the cache of weapons in the schools basement. Even though the situations are different the worries of the innocents are very much the same.

There is a fundamental difference between the two however and to ignore that is an indicator of bias. Israel just wants to survive as a nation and have an identity. Hamas wants every Jewish man, woman and child dead and eliminated from the face of the earth. Like it or not the Palestinians elected Hamas which means a majority of them agree with that ideology. Palestinians are not saints by any stretch nor are they completely innocent. Too support terrorist activities is to be a terrorist. Whether an enabler or a practitioner does not matter and the guilt is shared equally between the two.

At the same time the influence by the Zionists, which I admit are no better than the Nazi's were, is clearly making the situation worse and the citizens of Israel share in the shame for allowing these hate groups to exist among them.

For those questioning the source,simply type 'Shimon Fargion and Riccardo Pacifici' into google.Click the translate link on the Italian news stories and you will find the same information.

I have tried to add some here but the http addy is too big.

Its not difficult people,research before you reply.




[edit on 5-1-2009 by DantesLost]