The Circle of Faith:Why Faith is NOT a Good Thing

Originally posted by TruthParadox
reply to post by OldThinker

 

There may be some positive effects - but at what cost?
See, it's easy for us to see doctrines and know that they are good or bad.
In such respects, faith is not needed - you either agree or disagree.

I personally see the Bible as a book filled with contradictions and inconsistencies.
Sprinkled on top are a few doctrines which we can all see (without faith) are good (don't kill, don't steal, etc). On the bottom, hidden from view, are all the doctrines which completely contradict the 'sprinkles'.
How many Christians completely ignore the God of the Old Testament and instead go straight for the sprinkles? Think about it.

God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, but apparently he took a break from that in the Old Testament, and instead played the role of the Devil.
Now stick with me.

If someone commited the acts that God did in the Old Testament, what would you honestly think of that person?
1) Commanding that you should kill your child if he/she disobeys
2) Commanding that you should kill all who do not believe in God
3) Commanding that if you see a woman being raped and she doesn't scream loud enough, to kill her.

That is just a small portion of the evils of the Old Testament.
What would you think of a person who commanded those laws (with no faith in them already to ignore such actions)?
You would know that such a person is evil.
What about when God does it? He must of had a reason - that's your first thought.
That is the power of faith - to see evil and agree with it. To brainwash yourself and not even know it. To see a contradiction and ignore it.
That is the cost.

You can absolutely be a good person without believing in a god.

Well-written TP...hey here's a challenge...really a partnership...when you have time, U2U me...or, heck, start a thread on all contradictions, problems you see in the Bible...and give OT a shot at explaining them? What do you say? We can learn together?

I admit I am not up on all of them...MY BAD....I should be, but you know life is busy....I am committing to pull the old head out of the sand and givin' it a shot?

We can also U2U some allies on both sides for the discussion...nj2day, noobfun, ashleyD, clearskies, etc...if OT left some off please forgive me....the second thing to go is the memory,,,,can't remember the 1st...

Originally posted by Clearskies
Yes, if you believe in the supernatural.
G-d can do ANYTHING.
Including talk to you.

Do you beleive in voodoo and vampires as well?
Do you think the stories from the Greek mythologies actualy occurred?
If not why not?
Suspending credulity and the (god given?) critical reasoning facility of your brain just so you can legitamise some fantasticaly tall tales seems to me to be a bit of a cop out (and a convenient way of shoehorning in crediblity).
Of course you are completely entitled to your opnion as I am to mine but if a cult started up beleiving 'The Lord of the rings' was literal how would you regard them?

Maybe these folks were right when they said:

"I do not feel obliged to beleive that the same God who has endowed us with senses,reason and intellect has intended us to forgoe their use".
Galileo Galilei

"Religion seems to have a way of making people abandon logic".
Amanda Baxter

"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes".
James Feibleman, Understanding Philosophy, 1973

"The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next"
Ralph Waldo Emerson.

"Science can destroy religion by ignoring it as well as by disproving its tenets. No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, the non-existence of Zeus or Thor — but they have few followers now".
Arthur C. Clarke

"Most people's religion is what they want to believe, not what they do believe".
Luther Burbank

G-d is NONE of those things!

I'm afraid a cursory reading of the O.T. from an objective viewpoint shows that the biblical god was not the nice chap everyone assumes.

Have a look at this thread;some of the posts have interesting links citing specific examples of his cruel,socipathic and homicidal actions/instructions:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Of course you could just cherry-pick out the nice bits and wilfully ignore all the rest (as many people do) but then that would be defeating the object of informed,balanced,honest discussion wouldn't it?


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

We have so many religious nuts say "JESUS LOVS US" but when you ask why all you get is because hes god... You dont undersatnd the motivations for his love.

many dont think that this understanding can be contained in a man, and so they label him a god.

I love you, becasue i know why you act and say the things you do. It is GOD/causality that has formed your ignorance or enlightnement. This is something you dont see yet and so it makes you live without the "faith" that you can understand these concepts or even see yourself in GOD/causaity and in turn see it in others. remeber the "faith the size of a mustard seed" could lead you into all undertanding.

If a man is to unknowlingly insult you should you always burst out and say "i forgive you"? NO because he would not udnersatnd what it was that he did wrong. Through my understanding of GOD/casuality i have already forgivin this man in his ignorance... but it is him through his growing understanding of GOD/casuality that he may come to see his tresspasses.. This man does not need to ask for forgiveness to any being... he mearly has to understand that he is already forgivin in understanding that he has tresspassed.

It is the nature of repentance... that understaning of your ingorance and why it was wrong..., in that true understanding you will never do it agian.

Few have "faith" that doing anything beyond parroting words will do them any good... so they go to church and sing and listen to the retards of the class- preachers, ministers, popes. Tell them what to belive based on words from a book. They say have FAITH that this is true, but do not explore any deeper than this ignoarnce. that is the wrog use of faith... he would implay that your sitting their reamining ignorant is going to be the point of your salvation.

reply to post by OldThinker


Sounds like fun . Maybe someday I'll start a thread like that, though it would take a while to research it all.




reply to post by karl 12


Very well said.
When faith is applied to something which is foreign to us (Zeus for example), it seems silly - we can see the flaws of faith.
However, when faith is applied to something which is accepted by society (Christianity), all the flaws are hidden.
But when you step away from it, you can see the neverending circle of faith which can only be broken by unbiased logic and reason.

reply to post by TruthParadox



I'll start at my end, keep you up to date...

OT

PS: Man, maybe we are on to something?

Faith makes people ignore chances and probabilities.

It can also be interpreted as allowing people to be irresponsible with no consequences, or to just believe that something will happen without working towards it.

It's definitely not a good thing. It's kind of like a drug, or an anti-depressant, only most of the world does it.

Note- not having faith does not mean you are a pessimist, it means you are a realist.

I really think the problem you're having is with dogmatism, not faith.

And I think that you're allowing dogmatists who inaccurately claim that faith can't be questioned to convince you to reject spiritual experience altogether.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


Mighty fine post

The very cheeky Derren Brown makes a good point about faith in this clip:

Originally posted by TruthParadox
Faith is, quite simply, a belief which is void of evidence - sight, sound, smell, feel, or taste.

Therefore using your belief in the reality of those things we can sense or measure,

You must therefore also accept that the only reality that exists, the only true concrete truth that exists, is one of electrical currents between nerves in brains?

The chemical reactions, and exchanges of ions across synapses are the universe and all that is real?

For that is the reality of what you can measure, see, taste, hear, smell and touch.

I have mentioned the following before but it is soo important to think about for all, those with faith and those materialists.

If it is daylight where you are, or it is night time, and you are seeing, experiencing things out there, outside of your body, those truths that you can see and say it is real....

Well how does the light you experience now, that lets you see this computer screen, how does it get into your brain/awareness/experience?

Is there windows in your head?

If you think it goes to your experience from your eyes read up on biology.....

WE CREATE THAT LIGHT IN OUR CONSCIOUSNESS.

It is an projection, a self and internally generated experience.

For the materialists what you measure is as much an illusion and lacking in the inherent actual truthness of the thing, as you see "Faith" or "UFO's".

Your evidence of truth is itself a total lie and not real.

Just think on the fact that ALL LIGHT you see is actually cretaed in your brain/Mind.

Love and LIGHT to you all

Elf

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
Faith makes people ignore chances and probabilities.

It MAY...

Doesn't have to...

chances and probabilities? have you considered an 'alternative' to your null hypothesis?

reply to post by OldThinker


Not to but in but I would also like to join in on that topic. I think it will be very helpfull to people of all "faiths" to learn this.

reply to post by MischeviousElf


We receive data through our 5 senses. That and logic are all we really have to go by.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
For the materialists what you measure is as much an illusion and lacking in the inherent actual truthness of the thing, as you see "Faith" or "UFO's".

That's not true. It's not an illusion if it's there. We determine if it's there or not through the 5 senses. Emotion is NOT one of those senses - it's extremely fallible.
I wouldn't lump UFOs with faith, personally. We do have evidence that there are ufos - we just don't have hard evidence of who's flying them.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Just think on the fact that ALL LIGHT you see is actually cretaed in your brain/Mind.

The light isn't created in the mind, the light is seen by the eyes and the data is transferred to the mind.

Originally posted by One4truth
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Not to but in but I would also like to join in on that topic. I think it will be very helpfull to people of all "faiths" to learn this.

she went off-line....


OT will check back tomorrow...OK?


night........

Originally posted by TruthParadox
The light isn't created in the mind, the light is seen by the eyes and the data is transferred to the mind.

Exactly, data

But the light you see around you, are reading by, that lights your way from a torch so you dont fall over in the dark,

is entirely made in your mind/brain from electrical stimulus.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for actual light to get into your brain, well the part of it we see our world with.

What you see and measure out there, is just a projection and hologram, that is actually UPSIDE down from how it comes into your senses.

All the "PROOF" is just electrical impulses, that are turned upside down in the back of your head, where then your Mind creates the illusion of this solid and truthful reality we all rely on.

But it is soo important to realise that where we see and experience this shadow here, that candle there, the light of the screen, is totally dark, pitch black at the back of your head.

Your mind/consciousness creates this illusion from the chemical reactions and imaginations of the brain.

We DO CREATE the light we experience as seeing out there, as mentioned above.

It is an illusion and not the Truthfull nature of what the energy of light really is, just our projected illusion of it.

Do we see waves of the reality of photons lol?

From the darkness in the brain a whole world of light senses - NOT Emotions, is created.

Kind Regards,

Elf

reply to post by One4truth


lol...and judeo-christianity doesn't have holes throughout??? get real

i will never understand how people can seriously swallow the fairytale and actually think to themselves "yeah, that makes complete sense. a jealous god created us and then created his own son to be a sacrifice to himself (to me the most insanely hilarious part of christianity lol) so we can all deny ourselves the basic pleasures of life (supposed sins) so we can then die and go sit around worshiping this god forever"

yeah, sounds like a blast. if this is the truth, then i'll gladly burn in your hell instead of enduring that kind of lame eternity lol

also, evolution is not a theory because it has been proven over time because we have witnessed it in anthropological findings as well as through current observation

bottom line is the dominant religions are a bunch of ancient stories made up by civilizations that could not explain the phenomena around them. with scientific advancement we can now explain these things which makes religion an absolute moot point

now to the point that religion (not faith necessarily) is harmful. yes, it absolutely is because it allows people to deny accountability. because they can now simply say yes it made sense to slaughter thousands upon thousands of "non-believers" in the name of their god(s). they can now blame misfortune on a "higher power" and not look to themselves for why they fail

it is an absolute cop-out and it has held back our evolution of thought for too long. i believe that religion is in its waning phase as future generations become more aware and all of you weak people that need religion to have a sense of purpose in life because you're too feeble minded will just die out and humanity will continue to evolve in a logical manner without the distraction of hordes of ridiculous religious freaks getting in the way

done

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


Wow you got me. Oh wait, I am too feeble minded to grasp your insult, sorry. Well I guess you can go ahead and keep using your electrically charged goo made into brains and I will keep using my feeble mind that was created by my jealous god.
Btw-did you know that there was a scientific experiment done on carbon dating that found a LIVE snail to be dead for millions of years. And, no, evolution is still just a theory from a man that later in life denounced his theory based on his study of the human eye. "done".

Ps -dont be so angry

Originally posted by One4truth
And, no, evolution is still just a theory from a man that later in life denounced his theory based on his study of the human eye. "done".

No, Darwin never "denounced" his theory. You're taking one quote that he made completely out of context.
And Evolution is a scientific theory now which is backed up by a mountain of evidence.

But thanks for proving the point of this thread for me .

reply to post by TruthParadox


The evidence is purely circumstancial and not the smoking gun. Otherwise it would not be a theory.
And how exactly did I prove your point? If it is because evolution needs the kind of faith, as you define it, to be believed, then your right; It is bad to have faith in evolution, as it distracts the creation from its creator. It is a dangerous theology to have considering it leads a person to believe there is no God and we are all just a pile of sea poop that got hit by lightning and not special in the eyes of God. That is what ultimately influenced Hitler in wanting a superior race.
I have more but I have to go and make sure my kids are indoctrinated in my "bad" faith in God.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by One4truth

 

lol...and judeo-christianity doesn't have holes throughout??? get real

i will never understand how people can seriously swallow the fairytale and actually think to themselves "yeah, that makes complete sense. a jealous god created us and then created his own son to be a sacrifice to himself (to me the most insanely hilarious part of christianity lol) so we can all deny ourselves the basic pleasures of life (supposed sins) so we can then die and go sit around worshiping this god forever"

I do agree with your thrust about the interpretation done by mankind, to make himself powerful over others and be worshipped himself, like head Rabbi's, Popes etc.

But that is a skewed part of the message, of the truth... It leads us to:

Angry at what you have created, angry at the mirror?

If a God exists, clearly, logically we are not separate, "Us" and "Him/God" for all that god made created, is made of God stuff, is within God and is a part of God.

We are all parts of the same thing observing itself from differant points of view...

Judeo tradition:
Psalm 82 V6

I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.

In the standard translation,

In wesleys Notes it reads probably more correctly too as no Nicea as follows:

Have said - I have given you my name and power to rule your people in my stead. All - Not only the rulers of Israel, but of all other nations.
Children - Representing my person, and bearing both my name and authority.

Christianity Jesus:

John Ch 10 V 34:

Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '?

Before anyone gets angry at a God out there, they should try and come closer to home, and awaken the one within, and reading and learning both Gnostisism (the original and intended way of christianity), The Yod/tree of Life and Kabalah, and certainly for the materialists and all the proff of unified reality and "oneness" found in Quantum Mechanics.

An musician my not like the way his vibrations sound, and the music it creates, but how foolish to get angry at the Guitar, or the Air the sound travels through eh?

Kind Regards,

Elf

Originally posted by One4truth
The evidence is purely circumstancial and not the smoking gun. Otherwise it would not be a theory.

It's a scientific theory which is different than your average theory.
Ever hear of the theory of gravity?

Originally posted by One4truth
And how exactly did I prove your point?

You proved my point by attacking something you have no understanding of. I pointed this out as an effect of faith in my first post.

Originally posted by One4truth
If it is because evolution needs the kind of faith, as you define it, to be believed, then your right; It is bad to have faith in evolution, as it distracts the creation from its creator.

No, it does not require faith (belief without evidence), as there IS evidence.

Originally posted by One4truth
It is a dangerous theology to have considering it leads a person to believe there is no God and we are all just a pile of sea poop that got hit by lightning and not special in the eyes of God.

There are Christians who believe in evolution...
Personally, I saw the flaws in the Bible before I accepted evolution. I was an atheist who thought evolution was silly for a few months because I had been brainwashed my entire life to believe it was something that it's not.