Israel-If This Thread Doesn't Open You're Eyes,Then Nothing Will.

first post feels like BIOSHOCk.

Hey Magic!!! I can see how you would come to that conclusion, however that doesn't make the others saints either. Both sides have said incredibly mean things and both wish to wipe each other out. I'm not taking a side here either.
I guess what bothers me the most is when people are decieved into taking a side in this battle. To me both sides have done evil things and done horrible things. To say one is any better than the other is incorrect in my view.
My needle slightly sways from the middle towards Israel ONLY because God promised them that land and it is my belief that they are supposed to get it. I just wish they could do it in a better manner and that all these different people could somehow live together.
Listen folks... say what you will, but I have been to Israel. I used to drive a mail van from Haifa to Tel Aviv everyday. I met many people and heard both good and bad from both sides. NO ONE is a saint in this conflict and sometimes it seems like some ATS members are trying to show one side as good or bad.
I'm sorry... there is no good or bad in this conflict...there only IS.

reply to post by DantesLost

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I take my hat of to you sir for that is a fine op.
That pic of the kids signing shells makes my heart sink

Hey Magic!!! I can see how you would come to that conclusion, however that doesn't make the others saints either. Both sides have said incredibly mean things and both wish to wipe each other out. I'm not taking a side here either.
I guess what bothers me the most is when people are decieved into taking a side in this battle. To me both sides have done evil things and done horrible things. To say one is any better than the other is incorrect in my view.
My needle slightly sways from the middle towards Israel ONLY because God promised them that land and it is my belief that they are supposed to get it. I just wish they could do it in a better manner and that all these different people could somehow live together.

Your comments are ridiculous- Hitler also stated that the "gods" prompted his actions. I cannot agree with your "sway towards Israel" because of words in a book. If the all Holy Being promised them the land, why did they have to be given it in '48? Also, why would the all Holy "Benevolent" ONE not assist with some diplomatic strategic support? You cite words that are sacred to only one group, yet neglect the words of the other-- NOT FAIR.

Already talked about this very same information back on the 1st, the problem is my Topic wasn't catchy enough for most on ATS.


www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 6-1-2009 by mazzroth]

reply to post by smhart

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Please remember that isreali intelligence, the mossad created and funded hamaas as a buffer to Arrafats plo, please also remember that isreal broke the truce by assassinating key hamaas officials, also remember that the possibility exists that the rocket attacks on isreal are being done by people paid by isreal to do so, note that the isreali death toll from said sugar powered home made rockets is only four deaths not 500+, unlike the isreali retaliation with one ton bunker busting bombs supplied by the usa to drop on civilian houses, isreal has absolutely no moral high ground in this struggle, and yes! hopefully someone will wipe them off the face of this earth for this atrocity, these systematic, planned crimes against the people of Gaza (humanity), did they learn nothing by what was done to them? obviously not, people forget so easily many of the isreali leaders were terroists themselves as was Shirom aka , the butcher of beruit. I am appalled, give me a rocket launcher with real rockets. I appall violence in any form, but what they are doing must stop because the long term consequences are unthinkable.

This thread really shows who is brained washed. Nice post topic creator. (I am serious)

Maby you will mention a few examples to back up you're statement, instead of making a one liner

justamomma



Yes,it is a topic that is rarely discussed.Which is a shame because it is so interesting.Attempting to force the hand of God is a whole new level of megalomania.




to everyone

I just want to give a big thank you to everyone who has posted,even those who I do not agree with.Its much appreciated.

Over the last two decades, I have been a lead negotiator on matters of defense and intelligence for the US Govm't. When unsuccessful as a negoiator, I make recommendations to upper echaleons of the US Govm't. Usually, the next steps are militarily/covert.

I have spent years studying the conflict and psyche of Arab and Jew. I have concluded a few simple truths on the nature of things and would like to share with the board. All arguments are emotionally charges and we all have personal bias like religion, political affiliation, etc. I have removed these and conclude this about the Arabs and Israelis. No matter which "side" you are on, I think most will agree on these when the emotion is taken out:

1. Nothing in life is inalienable. After meeting Arafat, I recall him always invoking the "inalienable rights of the Palestinian people." Couple this with the idea of "self-determination" and we see the creation of a myth. This is applicable for just about everything from you job to the sovereignty of the nation-state.

2. To gain that which you call inalienable, you must
a. win it through militarily force
b. negotiate for it
c. be lucky and have it given to you.

3. The Palestinians are:
a. unable to win these "rights" through militarily force
b. unwilling to negotiate for it until recently. Fatah has shown much willingness to negotiate. Hamas has not. End of story.
c. unlucky people because
1. the Holocaust happened
2. American Jews have money and media to support the cause of Israel
3. their own demise - they used poor strategies to portray themselves in the West, ie. Munich, Hijackings, suicide bombings

It is my conclusion, that for a fact, Israelis are European and have a strong notion of nation-state. They know how to survive. Arabs are communal and will never unify the calphate - Sunni and #e which they need to do to defeat Israel from a military point.

Obviously, this balance keeps us from an "ultimate Jihad." Hamas will be defeated (no Hamas moderate, which is why Israel has no choice but to preempt).

Hezbollah will not be defeated. Justice and proportionality matters not. Tel Aviv will be nuked, eventually. Most likely by 2030. Palestinians will continue to die by Israelis and their own swords with peak and trough low intensity warfare.

Be safe and be thankful for the US

Here is what I believe is a "RUB" in your post...
Arafat essentially quoted the Declaration of Independence that says...



He seems to have believed that the Founding Fathers of the USA were quite brilliant. The US Constitution has a "Bill of Rights" and the Declaration of Independence has 3 more. All of these RIGHTS are unalienable, meaning that these RIGHTS are inherent in all men who are all equal and thus no government can take them away. The government does not grant these RIGHTS since our CREATOR granted them.

Even if the Revolutionary War failed the RIGHTS would still remain UNALIENABLE. Even if GW froze in Valley Forge they would still remain. Hence FREEDOM and FREEDOM from TYRANNY. Naturally Arafat didn't have a leg to stand on since that is not the USA but given the reality that you were part of the peace process surely you know what unalienable means.

Washington himself warned us over and over about entanglements and taking sides but consequently you folks did take sides and still insist on taking sides. The USA has endlessly supported Israel and as Arafat let you know that he studied American history you let him know that he had to comply. Naturally these Palestinians do not have resources as has been assured by Israel and the USA but if Arafat believed that their God Given Rights were like ours since all men were created equal well things could be different today.

Thanks for share you're experiences, in a "get to the point way". Clear short facts, that even i can understand
Now you're also aware of the future. With you're status and as you point out, no emotions are involved. May i ask if you're ready to explain the future a little bit further ?

[edit on 6-1-2009 by flymetothemoon]

This may be true in how *you* view it, but it is not true from my perspective. In fact, Judaism is more practical and realistic than most realize. It does not seek to define G.d because G.d can not be defined and therefore, one cannot be controlled through it. The so called "rituals" are ways of incorporating the idea of the divine in to even the smallest matters for the individual. It is a connection that one makes to acknowledge the reason we are here. It is a beautiful expression between man and G.d and to the person who *understands* the depth of it, there is no way one can be controlled by it for it teaches a person that G.d is found in more than just one man... He *is* the Life Force.

And as for the other religions that don't limit G.d to a *thing* or *man* but understand that G.d can NOT be defined or limited within the confines of any one thing within our physical world gets *it* and they can not be controlled or deceived either.

Zionist may say they subscribe to Judiasm, but they do not.. they worship money. Christians that worship Jesus, a man, as G.d do not subscribe to true christianity. Muslims who worship a rock and/or their hatred also do not practice Islam as it was meant to be practiced. Those who truly understands that G.d is the Life Force that moves every living thing, no matter the expression they choose, they can not be accused to be part of the herd for their's is an expression that comes from within.

[edit on 6-1-2009 by justamomma]

Once again, I'm in awe due to people recently being so shocked by the current massacres of innocence in Palestine.

This isn't news.

For years, I've been watching videos, viewing photos and reading stories from Israel and Palestine and it's just horrific to know what happens between the two. Suicide bombings in Israel, bombs being dropped in Palestine, parties and restaurants being blown to hell in Israel slaughtering FAMILIES, Palestinian CHILDREN being taught to kill Jews and hate the west. Israeli children being taught Palestine is the root of all evil.

Folks, I'm sorry to say but after years of observance, I have to say Palestine are the ones here who are more extreme than Israel.

Imagine if Canadians came across the border blowing crap up murdering our citizens, what would we do? Probably do the same as Israel. Take action.

However, the Jews did come in and kick the Palestinians out, so, who knows.

All I know is: This isn't groundbreaking. I'm not one bit stunned by what's going on. Civilians killed in Palestine? Oh geez, really? Like that hasn't happened before....

I'm ANXIOUSLY waiting for a suicide bombing to occur in Israel that'll cost the lives of many innocent citizens. What will everyone think? Will they jump for joy and say FINALLY Palestine struck back? Who knows,

I have NO idea why the most recent attacks in Palestine gained so much attention than ever before.


And of course, once again, Chechnya is left in the dark.

reply to post by DantesLost

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At least you are not conceited... Thinking one post is going to change everyones minds. I am sure no Arabs or Palestinians in particular have ever said anything negative about Israel's existence.