Originally posted by Curio
I wasn't trying to quantify "bad" with numbers of dead and wounded.
Who would in this instance? I mean if the point isn't defensively why address it when your aim is to blame everything on the basically defenseless
side in this 'conflict'?
The fact is, Hamas are firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel, they send suicide bombers into Israel. That's "bad" no matter how you
look at it.
Well then i suggest we let Iran for once actually sell them more 'presicion weapons' so they can target those they want to? Would that be OK with
you? As for the suicide bomber there really isn't much practical difference for someone or some organization which wishes to attack civilian targets
inside Israel; the odds of the attackers escaping are very, very low any ways and since the whole point is to prove the commitment to the cause of
national liberation it makes a good deal of strategic sense to do this if you can find citizens willing to do this. If you want Hamas and liberation
movements to fight on equal footing i suggest we start funding their military forces so they can spend the many years it takes to train highly
professional soldiers that can stage raids behind 'enemy' lines and fight or steal their way back to safety. Basically i just don't understand what
your asking for when angry Palestinians, Iraqi's, Afghans, Irish ( name a national liberation movement) follow suicidal seeming strategies ,
especially in the press of their oppressors, in the face of overwhelming military force.
Or do you want to get into a silly argument over who is "baddest"?
That's too obvious to bother with; Israel is the only 'side' in this 'conflict' that has the power to broker a true peace , as Israeli's try to
vote for, but the Israeli government has consistently been hijacked by radicals who like their imperial American allies wishes to keep their
imperially gotten goods at any price to the declared enemies as well as casualties amongst the people they claim to be protecting.
And the Jews have had an easy ride? The history books would beg to differ. Any rational person can see that Israel would have fears.
So you then believe that Jews have chosen to perpetrate the same crimes on others as was inflicted on them? Why does opinion polls in Israel
consistently differ with that view? Why do Israeli's want peace and withdrawal from contested areas and why are they so consistently deceived about
the state of affairs by their press and government? A state entity can not have fears and clearly the Israel state institutions reflects this fact by
creating and perpetuating strategies that are consistent with inciting both Jewish and Palestinian racial prejudices.
Does it excuse their excessive use of force? No, but at the same time you can't make out the poor Palestinians are the only ones with a
Then i suggest the Jewish people use their nuclear aresenal against Germany and Eastern Europe where they suffered most recently and most brutally. I
mean if the Jewish were a truly vengeful people i suspect that would make sense or do you believe they take pride in attacking defenseless
Blowing themselves up? Firing rockets into Israel? Again, this isn't a competition. Both sides have done evil. Period.
The Japanese used massed kamikaze attacks involving hundreds of aircraft with bombs and relatively skilled&educated pilots because that strategy
yielded the most effective results. Why is there more 'evil' in accepting that 'defending' ( which doesn't seem to work out well for Palestinians
any ways) your people or seeking revenge will lead to your death than flying high and safe above a populated area and dropping hundreds of Kg's worth
of explosives? I wish someone can explain the difference as i see far more bravery and commitment in sacrificing one's life for a cause than risking
nothing by bombing defenseless people. And no, the same holds true for the ANC members that planted bombs in South-Africa to prove that the government
who claimed to be able to 'defend' whites could not and would never be able to. THAT is what suicide and other bombings are about. To PROVE to the
citizens of a given country that their government can not defend them from the anger and revenge engendered by oppressive and criminal policies
against foreign countries or specific indigenous groups.
That's what I was alluding to.
If so why the claim that both sides are 'bad' when only one has the power to stop the cycle? Why does it look like you expect the Palestinians to
keep throwing themselves at the feet of the Israeli's praying that mercy will be shown this time when it's never been forthcoming no matter how non
violently they behave while trying to maintain some means of self preservation?
I agree. The UN is useless.
The UN is not useless in that it firmly favors western economic imperialist policies. While the UN sometimes condemns Israel it does very little to
reign in either physical or economic western aggression. I might agree that the UN is practically useless in protecting the victims but that's as far
as i will go.
But admitting that people very infrequently exercise the type of control as oft believed in the West how can so many argue that the entire Palestinian
society should be started or bombed to kill or capture the bombers and rocket makers? Would Americans stand for Germany bombing Washington DC because
of the alleged ties to terrorist bombers in Germany? Why is this condoned when Israel and Western powers bomb poor people ( who would much prefer to
have aircraft and similar means to fight with) but not when they strike back against the disproportionate violence visited on them? Who has the most
to lose by perpetuating the violence? The starving/terrorized suicide bomber or the Israeli school children who can hide in basement school shelters?
The answer is so obvious that everything must be done by those with all the guns to paint who they wish to exploit as mindless savages who just want
to kill everyone in sight; it's killing the American Indians/Australian aborigines all over again.
Just because it's true doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
Supposing that your not one of those starving due to all of this it might seem that way.
Oh well, that makes it OK then.
Sure, absolutely. The Iranian people should be allowed to develop nuclear power and if they then choose to build nuclear weaponry so be it. What we
should focus on is where all the Iranian reform movements and leaders went or perhaps we don't have to ask if we actually read some history ( Hint:
Guess who was involved?) and understand that the Iranian regime can get away with this vast expenditure of resources because it can legitimately claim
that energy independence is important ( Western blockades against Iraq) or even that nuclear deterrence is the only true defense that might discourage
( North Korea, Russia etc ) the imperialist effectively.
So now you're making excuses for the Russians?
Absolutely. The Russians were never the problem and were legitimately doing their best to discourage further central European ( Germany, etc ) and
later Western European and American interventions. Furthermore the Russians did not vote the communist into power any more than Americans actually
voted Bush into power or Germans Hitler. Isn't it strange that despite the best efforts of tyrants and established power they almost always have to
resort to cheating the systems the people create to protect them from such abuses? So yes, i am making the same excuses for the Russians as i am for
the rest of the worlds citizens who are doing what they think best to get their voices heard.
In conclusion, I am very sympathetic to the Palestinian people - as I am to the Israeli people.
Why spare sympathy ( beside the very personal) for state entities who are oppressing others without the support of their citizens?
On the other hand, you seem totally anti-Israel and extremely anti-West/Europe.
Which is what reality is; you must be one of those people who don't believe in the existence of objectives truths? Is it all 'relative'?
Your attitude is very much that the poor Palestinians are totally blameless and the evil American-backed Jews are the cause of all the
problems in the world.
That's a quite simplistic summary but as summaries goes ,yes, that's pretty much the reality i have seen uncovered by people far better qualified
than myself. Why include the part about Jews running the world? Talk about tarring and featering? Do YOU think the 'jews' who run Israel are very
jewish in their approach? Maybe you even believe George Bush is Christian?