Israel-If This Thread Doesn't Open You're Eyes,Then Nothing Will.

reply to post by pinch

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how many times must i say this to people on this web site, hamas is a legaly and democraticaly elected body, the americans are invading terrorists by your argument, so lets hope that some afgan or iraqi bombs land on some american terrorists, i am allways suprised at how some americans can be so intelligent and aware of the world around them and then there are americans like you who breed hatred toward your people globally, wise up, its not clever to be such a hate filled muppet

reply to post by pinch

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Based on the child death toll each year, it is more likely that those shells ended up on the head of some little kid.

reply to post by wheazy

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Palestinians really don't get boycotted... I wonder why that is... Oh that's right... they've been caged in between walls without sufficent money, food, medical aid, jobs, land, homes, education... and the list goes on.

They're not permitted to import nor export. When they build a home a bulldozer goes through it, on their way to school the school gets blown up and when they need aid it's blocked from entering or the UN building storing it gets shelled.

So when you boycott Israel... Maybe, eventually, the Palestinians will have something worth boycotting too.

There is nothing random about it unless you believe in random violence ( cause and effect not having featured in your education) as human trait. IF such a thing were to happen i am sure the American national security state ( or most other governments ) could find some 'lone gunmen' to blame or some nation state to hold responsible depending on their original goals.



That happened to native people's in many countries so clearly it's not that hard to find enough psychopaths, with or without a great deal of propaganda, in any given nation to create a genocide.



If you mean to kill them all i suppose not but if you can't get away with killing them all killing any more than you absolutely have to ( organizers, leaders etc) will perpetuate the struggle and probably raise the intensity.



That isn't true. Most people when seriously pressed for survival leaves the area and that's what the majority with means have done. It's not human nature to fight a lost cause and especially not so when you have alternatives.



With whom should they form alliances? Which nations in the region is willing to take in more refugees and really wishes for a conflict with Israel? The Palestinians may get plenty of moral support from the west but when it comes to physical support from the nominal 'friends' in area it's the type of help that doesn't really.



Luckily not even Israeli propaganda is good enough to hide or commit crimes on a much larger scale than the one's they so far is. As seems obvious they have realised that they best way forward is to slowly starve Palestinians into oblivion these attacks then being merely a way to intensify the economic violence while destroying more life sustaining infrastructure and killing those who are creating resistance to this slow Israeli staged genocide.



But what there were no allies who were willing to risk their necks in truly helping you against a well armed enemy? You don't think Israel's neighbours have by now learnt that conventional weaponry and military force isn't sufficient to end the Zionist entity that is Israel?

Again i must wonder why you think the oppressed needs to do anything to encourage his enemy? What did the South-Americans or North American native people's do to the European invaders/colonist that necessitated their destruction?

Can't you begin to consider the possibility that imperialist needs no motivation other than land and resources to come up with the solution of genocide? Doesn't the mere existence of Palestinians create a situation whereby the Zionist can't get what they want in the region? What would you do if your mere existence where 'impractical' or offensive to someone with the economic and military power to completely annihilate you?

Stellar

This thread hasn't opened my eyes. Anybody with an ounce of sense can see that both sides are as bad as each other. I can see the conflict from both perspectives - both the Israelis and Palestinians have much to be angry about, much to fear. Both sides have done unspeakable things to each other.

What IS obvious is that this conflict is not going to end any time soon and it will NEVER end unless a serious effort is made. A serious effort doesn't mean a token UN force and a bunch of half-hearted cease-fires that everybody knows will never hold up.

Why does the whole world look on in horror but do NOTHING? The U.N. has the ability to send a million troops down there; separate them as if they were bickering toddlers, send them to their rooms, and tell them they're not coming out until they learn how to behave.

Think about how ridiculous it would seem to a watching alien; one of the members of the U.N. security council.....the council in charge of security on planet Earth.....is openly giving Israel billions in aid and a bunch of weapons. Another member is openly supplying Iran (and therefor Hamas) with weapons. Nothing can be decided by the security council if either of these members vetos a motion. I can't think of a more ineffective, corrupt and downright ridiculous system. I mean, COME ON!

Talking about Palestinians here but i suppose the distinction may be lost on someone who don' realise that the 'original' Jewish people were a Semitic ( Arab) people too. By your logic it's animals killing animals so perhaps you can just find a discussion that doesn't involve animals?



And when did American and European women get the vote and or sufficient economic power to allow themselves not to have to put up with getting beaten? So some parts of the Arab world are a few decades behind the 'west' ( who's btw bombing/starving them; so much for a good example) in terms of gender equality, big deal.



Again since when are western society such a striking example of a good history with gender equality? Why , pray tell, has the west for all intense and purposes destroyed Iraq that was just about the most progressive nation in the middle east when it comes gender equality? Why does the US national security state support Saudi Arabia and such hell holes where women have precious few rights independent of family( read male) honor?



Unheard of outrageous in the west! Your a funny guy....



Well i haven't found a religion that make sense yet so i can at least agree that they are missing the point about as much as the rest of the monotheist.



I suspect it has something to do with their commitment to their religion. I suspect Christianty would lose half of it's card carrying members if it was as demanding...



Historians seem to think that handshaking came into use in England , some hundred years ago, to show that one did not carry weapons or concealed some in your sleeves ( hence the shaking) so perhaps this may be a indication that the people of this region did not have similarly hostile meetings?

If you are referring to the rather limp handshakes that are generally in use in Arabian culture these days perhaps they don't have as much to prove as American/European males with their overpowering/firm handshakes?



Words from the mouth of someone who are not familiar with modern weaponry and their capabilities. Where are Palestinians supposed to fight when Israel has stolen most of what isn't densely built up or intensely farmed? Would you fight on your farming lands when your starving already? Isn't it funny that these 'terrorist' with a 'death wish' are choosing to fight in places where their chances for survival ( and inflicting casualties on Israeli soldiers invading Gaza) is highest? These are the actions of people who want to survive to see better times, not those of mindless terrorist with death wishes...



You have every right to believe in fairy tales but why would god have changed his mind? I mean why not just set jews in their promised lands and protect them there? I wish you people could at least come up with internally consistent fairly tales!



What else would it give Arabs? I mean how did the Jewish people lose that area if they had god on their side in the first place? Did he perhaps banish them for their sins? Why can't god make up his mind and stop messing around with us?

The citizens of Israel has a right to self protection and this would be best facilitated by leaving the land that their government have so far stolen. In fact it might be best to move back to the countries they came from in the first place and to see if they could make peace with the people there. Why Jewish people who couldn't make peace with he citizens of Europe where they lived for centuries expected that they could steal land in the middle -east and do better is beyond me.

Perhaps it's obvious with who the problem lies? Maybe people really can not outrun their actions or inaction to become part of the societies they wish to call home?

Stellar

Could you agree that the one side is a hundred times better armed and armored as shown by casualty exchange of 13 dead against 1300 dead and thousands more wounded?



You clearly can not as you believe that both sides have similar resources to affect a peaceable outcome when that's very, very far from the truth. The Palestinians have plenty to be angry about ( their stolen land, lost political and civil rights and the hundreds of thousands of excess deaths that have been caused by Israeli economic terrorism over the last few decades.



What unspeakable acts have Palestinians committed that rivals the overwhelming means of the Zionist entity to cause pain and destruction?



The conflict will never end as long as Israel has all the power and the tactic support in inaction that the western governments give. Palestinians have made very many serious efforts but what power do they have to back their proposals when world governments consistently backs Israeli's ever higher demands?



The UN is not on the side of Palestinians any more than it was on the side of the 500 000 Iraqi' children it helped killed by it's western backed sanctions regime. The UN is NOT on the side of the oppressed and it's toothless resolutions shows that talk is cheap and Palestinian lives even cheaper.



Because the people of the world don't often control their government sufficiently well enough to guarantee even their own welfare and security? Why expect that Britons, Australians , or the rest to be able to help Palestinians when they can't stop their governments from supporting American aggression against Iraq? It's not that the people of the world's isn't doing anything or not trying to but that they simply lack the power to get their wishes enacted even at home.



The UN does not have that type of resources and it most certainly does not have the mandate given how the the US government will veto such a plan. Why do you expect Israel will give heed to such a resolution when American forces in Iraq have assassinated dozens of Iraqi and foreign journalist? If UN forces are sent they will just take over Israeli policing duties thus continuing the economic terrorism against what remains of the Palestinian people.



It's not ridiculous, just true.



Iran is trying to keep itself from becoming the target of the next American foreign escapade and it's not supplying Hamas with anything in it's official capacity. Having said that national liberation movements have always had allies if not just people and entities willing to sell them guns. When it comes are arms trading the Us and Europe certainly sets a great example.



Well that's the way it was intended to work in a unipolar world where the US national security state does what it can get away with while the USSR did it's best to survive the capitalist onslaught. The security council was always meant to reinforce and defend western interest and the USSR were mostly let into this arrangement because it were at the time just a bit too significant to ignore. In my thinking the USSR were relieved to get as much relative power as they did and proved that they knew their place , and how easily they could possibly lose this power, by using it very sparingly.

In conclusion you are at least right in stating that nothing will get resolved in favorable way for the generally oppressed hence proving the effectiveness of this organization in carrying out it's original role as agent and protector of western capitalist interest.

Stellar

I wasn't trying to quantify "bad" with numbers of dead and wounded. The fact is, Hamas are firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel, they send suicide bombers into Israel. That's "bad" no matter how you look at it. Or do you want to get into a silly argument over who is "baddest"?



And the Jews have had an easy ride? The history books would beg to differ. Any rational person can see that Israel would have fears. Does it excuse their excessive use of force? No, but at the same time you can't make out the poor Palestinians are the only ones with a "grudge."



Blowing themselves up? Firing rockets into Israel? Again, this isn't a competition. Both sides have done evil. Period.



That's what I was alluding to.



I agree. The UN is useless.



Indeed.



I was speaking idealistically. Of course that would never happen.



Just because it's true doesn't make it any less ridiculous.



Oh well, that makes it OK then.



So now you're making excuses for the Russians?



In conclusion, I am very sympathetic to the Palestinian people - as I am to the Israeli people. On the other hand, you seem totally anti-Israel and extremely anti-West/Europe. Your attitude is very much that the poor Palestinians are totally blameless and the evil American-backed Jews are the cause of all the problems in the world. That, of course, just isn't true. I don't care if Israel is "x" amount more to blame that the Palestinians, or that Israel killed "x" amount of people compared to "y" amount of people. Your mindset is very much part of the problem, not the solution.

Hello,

After reading most of this tread I would like to make a complaint here
about the general use of comparing or calling Palestinians or another people race with "animals". Animals today are much more respectable than humans, they cannot even nearly do so much evil as a human can. So don´t please try to put animals on the same footing as humans.

So in the name of the "league of the Surviving Animals that are Strugling to Survive the General Human Assault" I post here my biggest complaint
and outtrage.

So " leave the animals out of our idiotic carnages"

Animals are much more noble and holy that humans nowadays.

God must be thinking seriously how to deal with its problematic creation by now.

As for the Israeli attack to Gaza I can only said that it was the utmost
treacherous , coward and in-human act that I ever saw.
I used to think Hitler was a real bad vilain, but now Israelis kinda justified Hitlers actions. He might be thinking somewhere in hell ( or heaven ? ")
" Now they will understand me "

I never would expect that from Israel, and now my opinion about the
state of Israel changed drastically.

Dont´take me wrong I have many friends israelis and jews.

BUt this attack in Gaza was a big big mistake and will cause the end of the state of Israel as it is today.

God will not let this genocide and injustice pass like nothing had happened.

As a matter of fact the energy on the air in Isreal is so toxic and heavy with hatred and fanaticism that a friend o mine went there 3 months ago to visit some relatives, she couldn´t stay there for more than a week
She came back to Brazil and told me that it was umbeareable to stay there. She told me that many years of apartheid and hatred made people even more fabatuic in each side and the overall level of humanity is really low. people got very insensitive to the human life there. After she came back she was so badly impressed by what she saw there that she is sick to this day, She´s got a very serious disease, and she thinks it was the contact with the impressions on Israel. I believe so too.

Unfortunally the Israelis made the whole thing since the beggining totally
in the wrong way. They could easily have created a free state multi ethnic
permitting all the religions and some percentage of peoples to govern that small piece of land of theirs together with their brothers. Was that so difficult?

"It´s cheaper to make friends with thy neighbour than constructing a wall."

They forgot all this.

Now for you Pro Israel that will promptly hate what I post here:

( And I must say also that the zionist state has a great team of people paid to protect the "image" of Israel in foruns like this, if you all don´t know this is true also )

Please just don´t try to justify the unjustifiable !

For Israel have shown their face to the World. And it was not a nice face.

What I mean by that is that many things came out of this war ( I cant even call this a war , it was an open all out genocide ). that really made me lose my patience, and also the rest of the world. to name a few:

1- Use of many illegal weapons

2- Use of new weapons to "test" on people. ( hmmm didn´t the nazis do something similar on their camps? funny he? very funny indeed!)

3- Blocking the media, and interfering with coverage, killing of journalists.

4- Bombing of schools

5- Bombing UN, Red Cross Cars on duty

6- killing cicilians , children indiscriminately

7- Killing doctors and offcials from the Red Cross, Doctors without Frontiers UN people etc.

8- Using their control over the Bush puppet administartion to try to Veto
UN decisions (And some people here have the nerve to question if the Zionists International and Sons control or not the USA !!! )

9- Guess What now!, We discovered in amazement that Israel , that so technically and advanced Country doesn´t reconize the Hague Court!
hmm! really convenient ahh?

reply to post by mrgiller

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Unfortunately, as always all the carnage continues to be justified and people continue to buy into the lies. If it was any other country the world would have been onto it a long long time ago.

There has been no peace since Israel came to exist and there will be no peace until either they or the rest of the middle-east is exterminated. That is the sad truth of the situation.

Humanity is far from humane and civilisation has yet to become civilised. Israel have enough nukes to wipe out the whole region, the outlook is a very sad and scary thought.

Both sides??

you mean the crying women and all the dead children?

oh wait you mean Hamas (or any other)...

but they dont care about the palestinian's neither.. then who does?

maybe we should speak of not 2 sides but 3 sides then?

Yes Yes,

Every one should read this article about Israel controlling USA. This is really serious :

www.globalresearch.ca...

READ IT and Get know the HArd Facts about ISRAEL and USA.

Israel Sucks people..
SAD truth!

Who would in this instance? I mean if the point isn't defensively why address it when your aim is to blame everything on the basically defenseless side in this 'conflict'?



Well then i suggest we let Iran for once actually sell them more 'presicion weapons' so they can target those they want to? Would that be OK with you? As for the suicide bomber there really isn't much practical difference for someone or some organization which wishes to attack civilian targets inside Israel; the odds of the attackers escaping are very, very low any ways and since the whole point is to prove the commitment to the cause of national liberation it makes a good deal of strategic sense to do this if you can find citizens willing to do this. If you want Hamas and liberation movements to fight on equal footing i suggest we start funding their military forces so they can spend the many years it takes to train highly professional soldiers that can stage raids behind 'enemy' lines and fight or steal their way back to safety. Basically i just don't understand what your asking for when angry Palestinians, Iraqi's, Afghans, Irish ( name a national liberation movement) follow suicidal seeming strategies , especially in the press of their oppressors, in the face of overwhelming military force.



That's too obvious to bother with; Israel is the only 'side' in this 'conflict' that has the power to broker a true peace , as Israeli's try to vote for, but the Israeli government has consistently been hijacked by radicals who like their imperial American allies wishes to keep their imperially gotten goods at any price to the declared enemies as well as casualties amongst the people they claim to be protecting.



So you then believe that Jews have chosen to perpetrate the same crimes on others as was inflicted on them? Why does opinion polls in Israel consistently differ with that view? Why do Israeli's want peace and withdrawal from contested areas and why are they so consistently deceived about the state of affairs by their press and government? A state entity can not have fears and clearly the Israel state institutions reflects this fact by creating and perpetuating strategies that are consistent with inciting both Jewish and Palestinian racial prejudices.



Then i suggest the Jewish people use their nuclear aresenal against Germany and Eastern Europe where they suffered most recently and most brutally. I mean if the Jewish were a truly vengeful people i suspect that would make sense or do you believe they take pride in attacking defenseless palestinians?



The Japanese used massed kamikaze attacks involving hundreds of aircraft with bombs and relatively skilled&educated pilots because that strategy yielded the most effective results. Why is there more 'evil' in accepting that 'defending' ( which doesn't seem to work out well for Palestinians any ways) your people or seeking revenge will lead to your death than flying high and safe above a populated area and dropping hundreds of Kg's worth of explosives? I wish someone can explain the difference as i see far more bravery and commitment in sacrificing one's life for a cause than risking nothing by bombing defenseless people. And no, the same holds true for the ANC members that planted bombs in South-Africa to prove that the government who claimed to be able to 'defend' whites could not and would never be able to. THAT is what suicide and other bombings are about. To PROVE to the citizens of a given country that their government can not defend them from the anger and revenge engendered by oppressive and criminal policies against foreign countries or specific indigenous groups.



If so why the claim that both sides are 'bad' when only one has the power to stop the cycle? Why does it look like you expect the Palestinians to keep throwing themselves at the feet of the Israeli's praying that mercy will be shown this time when it's never been forthcoming no matter how non violently they behave while trying to maintain some means of self preservation?



The UN is not useless in that it firmly favors western economic imperialist policies. While the UN sometimes condemns Israel it does very little to reign in either physical or economic western aggression. I might agree that the UN is practically useless in protecting the victims but that's as far as i will go.



But admitting that people very infrequently exercise the type of control as oft believed in the West how can so many argue that the entire Palestinian society should be started or bombed to kill or capture the bombers and rocket makers? Would Americans stand for Germany bombing Washington DC because of the alleged ties to terrorist bombers in Germany? Why is this condoned when Israel and Western powers bomb poor people ( who would much prefer to have aircraft and similar means to fight with) but not when they strike back against the disproportionate violence visited on them? Who has the most to lose by perpetuating the violence? The starving/terrorized suicide bomber or the Israeli school children who can hide in basement school shelters? The answer is so obvious that everything must be done by those with all the guns to paint who they wish to exploit as mindless savages who just want to kill everyone in sight; it's killing the American Indians/Australian aborigines all over again.




Supposing that your not one of those starving due to all of this it might seem that way.



Sure, absolutely. The Iranian people should be allowed to develop nuclear power and if they then choose to build nuclear weaponry so be it. What we should focus on is where all the Iranian reform movements and leaders went or perhaps we don't have to ask if we actually read some history ( Hint: Guess who was involved?) and understand that the Iranian regime can get away with this vast expenditure of resources because it can legitimately claim that energy independence is important ( Western blockades against Iraq) or even that nuclear deterrence is the only true defense that might discourage ( North Korea, Russia etc ) the imperialist effectively.



Absolutely. The Russians were never the problem and were legitimately doing their best to discourage further central European ( Germany, etc ) and later Western European and American interventions. Furthermore the Russians did not vote the communist into power any more than Americans actually voted Bush into power or Germans Hitler. Isn't it strange that despite the best efforts of tyrants and established power they almost always have to resort to cheating the systems the people create to protect them from such abuses? So yes, i am making the same excuses for the Russians as i am for the rest of the worlds citizens who are doing what they think best to get their voices heard.



Why spare sympathy ( beside the very personal) for state entities who are oppressing others without the support of their citizens?



Which is what reality is; you must be one of those people who don't believe in the existence of objectives truths? Is it all 'relative'?



That's a quite simplistic summary but as summaries goes ,yes, that's pretty much the reality i have seen uncovered by people far better qualified than myself. Why include the part about Jews running the world? Talk about tarring and featering? Do YOU think the 'jews' who run Israel are very jewish in their approach? Maybe you even believe George Bush is Christian?

Continued

So if a Palestinian kid throws a rock, because his house got bombed killing his entire family, that somehow manages to shatter the visor of a Israeli riot policemen ( because the visor was made in China to bad standards that US corporations believe they can get away with,as US aid packages directs) and blinding him permanently the Israeli's can bomb ten more houses because they ,according to you, can't be 'more bad' than Palestinians thus deserving more outrage? Do you think you would like to live in Palestinian shoes under this same 'Christian' 'all sins are equal' type nonsensical logic where the powerful can keep control of the world because any response from the oppressed would make them just as bad?

Isn't this the opinion of a child who has absolutely no context and where in fact born yesterday?



Any mindset, according the oppressor at least, that allows the victims to legitimately fight back is obviously part of the aggressors problem, sure. I can understand while all this sympathy for the victims is so upsetting to those who believe that they are in fact benefiting ( security, economically) from the oppression of others. I suspect i might make some progress if i could at least convince people that only very tiny minorities are gaining a great deal by the wars and poverty we see in the world.

Stellar

reply to post by StellarX

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A Sophist and a Utilitarian, now that's irony!

Why don't you look up non-violent resistance and come back to this thread.

reply to post by Founding

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The exclusive recourse to non-violence ( What do you define as violence; how provocative will your 'movement' be?) has not in my reading ever 'worked' but if you can help me believe that it might soon start i would be all for less violence and more 'discussion'.

I will go with the classical interpretation of a sophist and just deny the accusation of me being some kind of utilatarian when i don't believe in such ridiculous reductionist logic. Either way i can tell you have much more to add so do go right ahead.

Stellar



[edit on 2-3-2009 by StellarX]