messages within pi or maybe dna

The recent thread on infinite numbers set me to thinking and reminded me of contact where they were looking for messages within pi. if you were a superior race monitoring a lesser race as it progressed a good way to keep track would be to put a phone home message in something they could only figure out when they would be ready.

Based on a quick check around the net it looks like people have been delving into this:

www.nature.com...

This has some noodlings on pi, one key problem with it thought is that is pre-supposes the code is in english
users.aol.com...

Some interesting pictures obtained by converting pi to binary:
www.befria.nu...

k. Now on to dna. DNA would also seem to be a good choice of a place to hide a secret message. It looks like we as humans are already able to do it to a degree:
www.wired.com...

what do you think??

The problem with that thought would be that aliens would have had to create the circle if they wanted to communicate to us through pi. It's simply the ratio of diameter to circumference in a circle. Now if there were a foreign object which landed here, who's ratio between lengths of the sides of the thing were to form an infinite non repeating decimal...Then we might have something.

Just a quick thought.

Infinite can really have no beginning, because if it did, it would have an end.

So, how can numbers, which have a beginning, be counted for infinity? Know what i'm saying?

Isn't that kind of a paradox?...

Ahh, but numbers don't have a beginning. They have an origin, 0, which isn't really a number, but a placeholder. They go on infinitly positive and negative.

Ahh yeah. Thanks for clearing that up for me...

Also, it has never been proven that PI NEVER repeats. There have been representations of PI out to 10,000 or more digits. Maybe it starts repeating at 1,000,000,000 digits. We may bever know.

As soon as IBM releases their quantum computer, I think we'll at least know if it repeats or not at 1,000,000 decimal places.

if there is a message whos to say its not starting right there in the first say 10 digits...it could all be dependent on how you would decipher it

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
Just a quick thought.

Infinite can really have no beginning, because if it did, it would have an end.

So, how can numbers, which have a beginning, be counted for infinity? Know what i'm saying?

Isn't that kind of a paradox?...

Yes, you are correct in your thinking. Infinity doesn't have a Mathematical Real Number Value. Within various cultures throughout history it is common to find both "Zero & Infinity" having the same 'value or meaning' also. The number scale that we use has been designed by us for the most practical use but it is not without certain 'limits' in some cases. Numbers don't exactly have a starting point either. 'Zero' is said to be the Start, but that is only for certain applications. If 'Zero' was the True Begining of Numbers Negative Values would not be possible for example. Another problem is the fact that 'Zero' has No Value, so in a sense it doesn't exist. Since it doesn't exist, it makes for a difficult starting point.

The traditional view derives from Aristotle:
"... it is always possible to think of a larger number: for the number of times a magnitude can be bisected is infinite. Hence the infinite is potential, never actual; the number of parts that can be taken always surpasses any assigned number." [Physics 207b8]

Infinity has been a topic of discussion since it's conseptual birth and has various definitions depending on where you look. It's been both a problem, solution, pleasure and pain for philosophers & mathematicians since it was introduced, and will most likely continue that way.

I'm rubbish at maths, but I've heard it said many a time that some infinities are bigger than others. How can that be? Does that not mean than some infinities have a disernable end?

There are orders of infinity, that's all I know, and that's getting in to far too much computation for my poor little left brain to handle.

The only problem I see with the placement of messages within Pi, though, is the fact that we discovered it quite some time ago. If I were an alien civilization, I wouldn't equate competency in intergalactic diplomacy with a rudimentary understanding of geometry.

Did any of you see the movie Pi? If I remember correctly, the main character is looking for stock trends by using Pi and his subsequent loss of sanity thereafter. Please someone correct me if I am wrong.

Originally posted by nyarlathotep
Did any of you see the movie Pi? If I remember correctly, the main character is looking for stock trends by using Pi and his subsequent loss of sanity thereafter. Please someone correct me if I am wrong.

Yup. Though I am not sure he was actually using PI. But it was a reference. He was trying to find patterns in the chaos that is the stock market.

Originally posted by kegs
I'm rubbish at maths, but I've heard it said many a time that some infinities are bigger than others. How can that be? Does that not mean than some infinities have a disernable end?

You're probably talking about something called 'Sets'. 'Sets' are used both in Math and Logic and can be used when talking about 'Sets' of Infinities. For example:
You might say there are Infinite Stars (including planets in this case for simplicity) within the Universe. At the same time, using 'Sets' of Infinities, you could also say there are Infinite Stars of a certain Set, as well as Infinite Stars of other 'Set' that don't belong to the first 'Set'. In that sense, you would have 'Sets of Infinities' where One Infinite Amount is different than another Infinite Amount. However, this can once again become a United Infinity when thinking of 'The Set of all Sets'. Each 'Set' being Infinite within themselves, and at the same time having an Infinite 'Set' of Infinite 'Sets'.

Infinity poses similar Paradoxes like those found in Zero or Nothing. 'Something' is given some value with respect to 'Nothing' as a comparative value. However Nothing cannot have a Value, therefore making such a comparison illogical. For this reason '0' in the number scale is not a Real Number but a Place Holder for a Number. In fact depending on who you ask and why, '0' is said to be a Value or Not a Value, and sometimes you may even get a more confusing definition than you ever thought possible.

Originally posted by crayon
Also, it has never been proven that PI NEVER repeats. There have been representations of PI out to 10,000 or more digits. Maybe it starts repeating at 1,000,000,000 digits. We may bever know.

Kanada calculated 204 000 000 000 decimals of pi. No repetition. Actually pi is proven irrational and transcendental. It will never repeat.

Modern day techniques like the Gauss-Salamin-Brent method, the formulas of Ramanujan-Chudnovsky or the formula of Simon Plouffe can calculate pi really fast. The amount of current decimals in the Gauss-Salamin-Brent increases 9 times every interation. The Ramanujan-Chudnovsky formula's get about 17 good decimals per term and the formula of Simon Plouffe can calculate a binary digit of pi without knowing the digits that came before it.

I fail to see how anyone can code information in a mathematical constant. Wouldn't the information be the same for civilisation?

You should probably also add to that that when using a counting system different from our decimal system the decimals will be different everytime, so good look figuring out in which counting system they are given.

Plus that pi is of course just a natural constant which is defined by ourselves, but in case that is forgotten, the above argument should do the trick.

You see my sig down there? That does include math also. Once you step out of the math bubble you run into problems because it only has limited uses outside of it's own little world.

That makes math so much easier if people just understand it's a man made system and it has gapping holes in it's foundation.

Thanks Mojom, that pretty much explained it. Been wondering about that for a while.

Amantine hit that # dead on:

Pi is proven irrational and will never (ever) repeat, ever.

This basically means that you could find any and every message within Pi, since Pi contains an infinite number of random integers, every relationship is contained within the stream of integers. Picture a million monkey typing a million years, that sort of thing.

And also, just because something is infinite, doesnt mean it cant have a beginning.

Let me explain:

Lets say our infinite bar does have a beginning. We pick a point any finite distance from this beginning, say 100,000,000 light years away. Now, from this point, if we go "left", we will, after 100M light years, reach the end of the bar. If we go "right", we can continue on to infinite. Now if instead of picking a finite point to begin at, we pick an infinite one, we can proceed "left" forever without reaching the beginning, and it is nonsensical to proceed "right". This is how a "bar" can be both infinite, and partially bounded.

Example: Pi

We know it begins with 3. The next number is 1. Then 4, then 1, then 5, then 9, etc. We can start 100,000,000 numbers away, in which case we can still only count back 100M numbers till we terminate. This is the beginning again. If we proceed from the 100M to the infinith digit, we will never arrive. Do you see?