if you clone someone do they have a soul?

I think I like Delta's take on it the best. It's pretty simple and doesn't confict with the observable facts.

The soul itself ceases to exist (not ceases to exist but is absorbed or transformed into other energies) as the body does. A soul does survive physical death, but slowly that soul "dies" also and what remains is a spirit.

As for there being a surce for everything and this being what people call God.

The whole concept of a God or creator is that he/she created everything out of nothing. Energy and matter does not form out of nothing, energies were there before which when combined form different manifestations of being.

What is matter but the physical manifestation of energy? and what are sentient beings but energy which is aware of itself and everything around it?



[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Muaddib]

every living thing on this planet or the next has a soul......... just my opinion....

The souls begin to form after the human being starts having experiences and makes choices from those experiences. The soul is not the spirit, but the soul is dependant of the spirit and the body.

The soul is the energy where all our emotions are stored and manifest, once a physical body dies the soul continues to exist for a while, but slowly, becuase there is no physical body and we don't continue to experience the physical, the soul begins to be absorbed into potential energy.

While the spirit continues to exist. The spirit also does remember what it has experienced through each soul and each incarnation.

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
People have this strange idea that in order for the spiritual to exist or for a person to be spiritual they have to believe in a creator.

Well, i don't believe in a creator which created things out of nothing, but I am a spiritual person.

You don't see evidence of some underlying organization to things? Now, I'm not Religious at all, but even looking at things in a scientific light I can't imagine that there is a not a first cause or first movement (since it really is all defined by movement, isn't it?), some first casual effect that triggered everything else. Ugh, going off topic.

Well to me it seems like most of us have reached a consensus. Clones get to have souls if they want to.

This has been an interesting discussion. Thanks.

God is nothing other than a Super Collective Cosciousness, not only prevading space and time, but remaining in its confine.
Our Souls/Consciousness are simply a part of this consciousness experiencing life through via physical manifests.

This is the all prevading " God " energy ours souls vehemently yearn to reattach themselves with.

Deep

Ambient, you did not anwser my question.

You say that the brain is the seat of conciousness.

I asked you when you have a very strong emotion, like breaking up with someone you have been with for a long time, where does the first feeling you have occurs?

To me is not in the brain. The first response comes from the gut area, actually two inches above the navel, but its not a pain like that of a stomach ache.

As for your question, if there was only organization in everything then yes, but chaos also exists.

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Muaddib]

I'd say it occurs in my mind. I think all else is the body reacting to impulse from the brain. I think "mind" is a combination of the brain and the soul/spirit working in unison to produce the "I".

but remaining in its own confine...well said zero deep

in the world but not of the world.

the finite in the end cannot describe which is infinite or understand that which has no end or beggining only the experience of self realization or liberation or what ever you want to call it will give you that answer to what can not be understood and then only you will know for it cannot be put into words for those to understand who are still only living in phantasmagoria for the inexorable cannot be defined

every living thing on this planet or the next has a soul......... just my opinion....

I hope that is not true. I just mass murdered about a thousand ants in my basement with a can of Raid. ahhh Springtime...

Originally posted by Muaddib
As for your question, if there was only organization in everything then yes, but chaos also exists.

The fact that order is created out of chaos on many levels is the very thing that makes me think there is a design (which does imply designer) of some kind. It's almost too elegant. We see the same structures in the macro and the micro with levels of chaos in between somehow building order out of itself.

The fact that order is created out of chaos on many levels is the very thing that makes me think there is a design (which does imply designer) of some kind. It's almost too elegant. We see the same structures in the macro and the micro with levels of chaos in between somehow building order out of itself.

True, there is to much control and order in this reality, and universe to say that order concieved itself on its own.

Every law/rule has a law maker.

Deep

For the most part, the arguments against cloning are a result of basic primordial human fears.

- Clones are not born the same way. Different is always bad.
- If a baby does not come out of a women�s vagina then it will not have a soul.

Unfortunately, religious beliefs are often the scapegoat for mankind�s fear of the dark. In the past, as in the present, religion has been the tool for many delays in desperately needed medical advancements.

Many people cannot accept blood transfusions based on religious beliefs. If they take blood from someone else then that other person�s evil will invade their body.

Lawsuits and injunctions, based on religions and immoral grounds, were brought against the first doctors to perform heart and organ transplants. There are also religious beliefs that keep people from going to a doctor to get common treatments, this attitude goes so far as to deny children basic medical care because everything should be left in God�s hands.

Organ Donation is still not fully accepted in many religions. Organ donation should be seen as the ultimate act of charity.

Inoculation against smallpox was opposed on religious grounds. Ministers joined in a manifesto proclaiming that vaccination against smallpox was "endeavoring to baffle Divine judgment."

The first anesthesia administered to women while giving birth was opposed to on religious grounds.

The list goes on and on�Basically, every medical advancement that mankind as ever made was delayed by someone with a religious belief against it. We can see the same battles being played out today with Stem Cell research and cloning. People always look to religion to help justify their primitive fears.

We see the same structures in the macro and the micro with levels of chaos in between somehow building order out of itself.

This could be explained as they both exist because of energy manifest itself in "everything" Energy in its simplest forms is neither good or evil, it is potential energy. It can be used for good or evil.

As for a creator, if something has a beginning out of nothing, it is impossible for it to continue for eternity, because eternity has no beginning or end.

Even the oldest religions saw this eternity as having no beginning or end. It is only in the last 2,000 years, or about that humans began to think on the idea of "creatio ex nilo", or creation out of nothing.

Just because every cause has an effect doesn't mean there is an old man with a stick making sure everything is happening as he wishes.

Not sure I believe in infinity except as a useful mathmatical abstract

Originally posted by Muaddib
Just because every cause has an effect doesn't mean there is an old man with a stick making sure everything is happening as he wishes.

That would be about the last thing I would imagine, I assure you.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Not sure I believe in infinity except as a useful mathmatical abstract

What would be the anwser for science saying, that nothing can be created or destroyed that there is a convertion from one manifestation into another?

Something cannot come out of nothing. A baby doesn't just appear out of nothing, half of the universe has some form of order because half of the universe is chaos, it is the duality of everything that manifests.

Energy in itself is neutral, or potential. It can be used for order or chaos.

Originally posted by zerotime
- If a baby does not come out of a women�s vagina then it will not have a soul.

So I don't have a soul?

Think about this one, it'll come to you

The brain is the seat of conciousness ....as for why you feel the pain of a emotional break up 2inches above your navel is because there is a plexus there or chakra in that area around your spinal column,your spinal column being nothing more than a extension of your brain so some things are felt in that area...that chakra is a very important one that limits and controls the two lower base chakras which attach you to material and worldly things