if you clone someone do they have a soul?

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posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 08:14 AM
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In my theory, the soul/spirit is the actual being and the physical body is just a shell or game piece if you will. The soul/spirit is the immortal componant and exists before the body's creation and continues on after the body's destruction.

Why? Well, why do you play any game? To experience. Like any game, part of the fun is to set limits on yourself and your tools and see how well you can do despite handicapping yourself in this way.

It does make one wonder about how souls are allocated doesn't it? Is it luck of the draw, or do we get a say in it? Did I choose to be a white male this time or was this just the next newly developed brain/interface that was available?

Anyway, I would say that a clone that has a suitably complex brain would attract a soul/spirit just as a normally developed one would.




posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 08:26 AM
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If it is the complexity of the brain which decides on whether or not a soul is allocated, then what is the situation in regards to souls for people who are heavilly mentally disabled? If they have brains of little or no complexity in relation to the average human, or below that of an animal, do they have souls? And what happens to a soul if the human, through an accident or disease, has irreparable brain damage, and rsorts to a vegetative state?

Also, I think it is dolphins (although it could be another animal) that are supposed to have brains that operate on the same level as a four year old, and so would the complexity be measured by potential or the level that has been reached? if it is the level that's been reached do we gain souls at a certain age? And if it is based around mental potential then do mentally disabled individuals whose minds cannot develop past a certain mental age not get a soul?



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 08:58 AM
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Just because someone's brain does not work correctly, it doesn't mean their brain is less complex. It just means that there is a malfunction.

Maybe in such cases the soul needs to learn something specific to having to exist in a state of malfunction. Like I said, we don't really know how any of this works so it's all speculation, but interesting nonetheless.

I think cloning is inevitable. With anything like this, if it can be done, someone is going to do it eventually. The big controversies we will face in the future about cloning are rooted in this very question.



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 09:07 AM
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Also it brings in the question of when are we human. At what point in our development does the brain become complex enough to host a soul? Does a foetus have a soul? has a newborn baby got a brain that has developed into a complex enough state in which a soul can be housed? If so, does an unborn baby? And at what point in the gestation period does that unbon baby get one?

We must obtain our souls at some point along the way (and not have them inherently), as we all start of as ameobas, the question is, at what point do we obtain one?

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Amarillo_Brice]



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by Byrd
A clone is a twin born many years after the original.

So, if you believe that babies born through in-vitro fertilization ("test tube babies") have souls and if you also believe that twins have souls -- then yes a clone has a soul.


Good question, my brain hurts...link, note the 3rd sentence.

en.wikipedia.org...

Doesn't the def' of a clone, mean 100% dna?
S.



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 09:30 AM
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Originally posted by Ambient Sound
In my theory, the soul/spirit is the actual being and the physical body is just a shell or game piece if you will. The soul/spirit is the immortal componant and exists before the body's creation and continues on after the body's destruction.

Why? Well, why do you play any game? To experience. Like any game, part of the fun is to set limits on yourself and your tools and see how well you can do despite
handicapping yourself in this way.

It does make one wonder about how souls are allocated doesn't it? Is it luck of the draw, or do we get a say in it? Did I choose to be a white male this time or was this just the next newly developed brain/interface that was available?

Anyway, I would say that a clone that has a suitably complex brain would attract a soul/spirit just as a normally developed one would.


I thought that myself... I had a Dead Experience once. It was like watching in the “spirit” world; and when I think about it I must have been 1% in it because I began to loose my senses and couldn’t think at all even when I open my eyes I couldn’t breath I was scared to death! There was no light at all.. It was like you looked into another “dimension” totally emptiness… well I am not afraid to die now after that experience I got myself proof.

In the future we maybe create technology that can store our memory and catch us (sole) when we leave the Human Body. Wow or even program our brains with all knowledge we would be extremely smart: D ahhhhh I love it…

We really are in eternity…




[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Cardu]



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by Amarillo_Brice
Also it brings in the question of when are we human. At what point in our development does the brain become complex enough to host a soul? Does a foetus have a soul? has a newborn baby got a brain that has developed into a complex enough state in which a soul can be housed? If so, does an unborn baby? And at what point in the gestation period does that unbon baby get one?

We must obtain our souls at some point along the way (and not have them inherently), as we all start of as ameobas, the question is, at what point do we obtain one?

[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Amarillo_Brice]


A_B, that question is the essence of existence,

(I like Bhudda)



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 09:36 AM
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You are correct. Those are the questions. If we had those answers, this disscusion wouldn't be nessisary would it?

I'm not sure that in this context I would assume that complexity equals quantity. It may not be a factor of how many braincells but rather the organization of them that matters. It could be that God has to breathe "life" into it as the Religious would maintain. It may be that conception does have some kind of metaphysical magic to it (in which case the clones are SOL, I guess). It may be a combination of those or something we haven't even considered yet. I'm certainly not trying to put this theory forth as fact.

I'm just trying to find a way to reconcile our science with the possible existance of a soul/spirit. If you accept the existance of a soul you have to start thinking about how it interacts with physical reality and what mechanism is involved. It's logical to assume that the brain is the link and mechanism since it is the only organ that cannot be removed, replaced or done without.



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 10:07 AM
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Originally posted by Ambient Sound
You are correct. Those are the questions. If we had those answers, this disscusion wouldn't be nessisary would it?

I'm not sure that in this context I would assume that complexity equals quantity. It may not be a factor of how many braincells but rather the organization of them that matters. It could be that God has to breathe "life" into it as the Religious would maintain. It may be that conception does have some kind of metaphysical magic to it (in which case the clones are SOL, I guess). It may be a combination of those or something we haven't even considered yet. I'm certainly not trying to put this theory forth as fact.

I'm just trying to find a way to reconcile our science with the possible existance of a soul/spirit. If you accept the existance of a soul you have to start thinking about how it interacts with physical reality and what mechanism is involved. It's logical to assume that the brain is the link and mechanism since it is the only organ that cannot be removed, replaced or done without.


Hi, Amb S. I get deja-vu about once or twice a year. It lasts about
2-5 seconds, but its really strong. Not bad vibes, just a strong
'flashback' of a happening that never physically 'occured', in my life.
It's pretty cool when it happens.
S.



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 10:33 AM
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Originally posted by Ambient Sound
the brain is the link and mechanism since it is the only organ that cannot be removed, replaced or done without.


Yet.



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by Amarillo_Brice

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
the brain is the link and mechanism since it is the only organ that cannot be removed, replaced or done without.


Yet.


Well, you can say "yet" about any subject at all. Let me add the generic "... as far as we know" to my last statement.




posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 10:54 AM
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haha, good point. I just meant that as evidence for the brain being the den of the spirit, that was a tad shaky, as it is only our technology which holds us back from brain transplants/replacements/undserstanding.



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 11:06 AM
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Well, science tells us that nothing can be created or destroyed. Things pretty much change from one form of manifestation into another.

We as humans are a very complex lifeform, as we all know. There are energies in our bodies, since we were a fetus, that are with us until the moment our bodies fail to continue, death.

What happens to these energies? Energy in itself does not cease to exist, and we know that matter doesn't either, even when atoms are splitted, hence the word "split," in fision they simply are transformed into other particles, also huge amounts of energies are released because of this. But nothing is really lost.

I do know for certain that we have energies which continue to exist after our physical bodies die. The spirit or soul is just another body which consists of aware energy/energies.

I see it as dropping an ice cube in the ocean. When the ice cube finally melts, does it mean that the frozen water has dissapeared? i am using the term "frozen water" for a reason. The only thing that happens is that it changes from one form into another. The particles of the ice cube will expand and will be assimilated by the ocean, and it might "seem" as if it has ceased to exist, but it doesn't.



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 11:19 AM
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No, I'm still going to stand by my assertion that the brain is the seat of consciousness and the interface for the soul/spirit. I think if we were advanced enough to do brain transplants, the soul/spirit would go with the brain to the new body, not stay in the old body.

Lack of Brain activity is what we use to determine death. It's pretty well known if you want to make sure you have killed someone, the best way is to cut off the head. Also, in humans, the Brain is at the top of the body for safety and a better view since almost all sensory organs are located in proximity to it which makes data transfer from those organs to the brain as quick as possible due to less distance the data must travel through the nervous system. The body exists to support the brain and to provide it tools to affect the envorment it finds itself in.

So, I guess the question as it pertains to cloning is, is the fact that you have a brain of sufficent complexity enough or does something outside of it have to interact with it to truely make a living, thinking being? If something has to interact with it, how is that triggered? Guess we'll have to ask the clones, because there is little doubt that someday soon, clones will be created.



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by Ambient Sound
No, I'm still going to stand by my assertion that the brain is the seat of consciousness and the interface for the soul/spirit. I think if we were advanced enough to do brain transplants, the soul/spirit would go with the brain to the new body, not stay in the old body.

Lack of Brain activity is what we use to determine death. It's pretty well known if you want to make sure you have killed someone, the best way is to cut off the head. Also, in humans, the Brain is at the top of the body for safety and a better view since almost all sensory organs are located in proximity to it which makes data transfer from those organs to the brain as quick as possible due to less distance the data must travel through the nervous system. The body exists to support the brain and to provide it tools to affect the envorment it finds itself in.

So, I guess the question as it pertains to cloning is, is the fact that you have a brain of sufficent complexity enough or does something outside of it have to interact with it to truely make a living, thinking being? If something has to interact with it, how is that triggered? Guess we'll have to ask the clones, because there is little doubt that someday soon, clones will be created.


Doctor Alfred Necessiter is world renowned for creating and
sustaining a brain storage unit(s).
S.



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 11:45 AM
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Soul, or a Pure Consciousness? Soul/consciousness seems manifest outside the body, not inside in me view.

If we can give a soul to a clone are we gods?

Deep



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 12:01 PM
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The brain is just the "motherboard" of the body. Does the brain in itself have the energy necessary to make a body function? No.

As I was saying on the analogy of the brain being like a motherboard. The energy that is actually making a computer function is "electricity," which the motherboard cannot "create," since nothing is really created or destroyed in the first place.

The brain, just like a motherboard is what conducts energy throughout the body and interprets information.

When you feel hurt emotionally, for whatever reason, deeply hurt, as in your longterm relationship with the person you care about the most has just ended. Where is the first place where you feel hurt? is it the brain?





[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Muaddib]



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 12:06 PM
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Ah, the classic question.

You see, it's hard to determine whether or not we even have a soul to begin with.

I'd personally say that we have a soul, or something similar to the soul inside us, and it is a more permanent part of us, you know, something that can linger after death (ghost). This 'spirit' we'll call it bestows upon your physical person the ability to intuit, or sense things, to feel obscure feelings such as guilt, remorse, love, and other such emotions, and to a lesser extent, it is sort of a weak sixth sense (yes, I do believe we all have one of some sort.)

Now, as for a clone having a 'soul'...I have no idea what gives us our 'souls', but I doubt that it's anything conventional/terrestrial, whatever, however you want to say it. Divinity is what I'm talking about here.

I have to say that I'm not speculating on what goes on in the divine world, but I doubt that a cloned person would be 'built' the exact same as we are, simply because they weren't made in the traditional way.

Another thing you could look at is the normal gestation of a human being. It seems pretty worldly to me, so one could feasibly make the argument that even normal human beings don't have a soul. After all, it's just two cells that chill in the same place for 9 months, go through countless divisions, and wind up as a little human being.


So, to answer your question, I really don't think there can be a definitive answer.
Sorry for not being much help there. This is why the cloning debate will go on for a VERY long time.



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
The brain is just the "motherboard" of the body. Does the brain in itself have the energy necessary to make a body function? No.

As I was saying on the analogy of the brain being like a motherboard. The energy that is actually making a computer function is "electricity," which the motherboard cannot "create," since nothing is really created or destroyed in the first place.

The brain, just like a motherboard is what conducts energy throughout the body and interprets information.

When you feel hurt emotionally, for whatever reason, deeply hurt, as in your longterm relationship with the person you care about the most has just ended. Where is the first place where you feel hurt? is it the brain?


To continue your analogy, would the soul/spirit be the processor then since that is where the actual number crunching happens? Or would it be the program that the computer is running? I would say it's the program, which is written and created by something outside the computer, but without which the computer just sits there and hums.



posted on Apr, 8 2004 @ 12:20 PM
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I do think that "ghosts" are just an "imprint of the energy of a person" that is left in an area. But a ghost is not a spirit. But, it is possible for a "spirit" which has not believed throughout his "life" (as in living in a body) that there is some sort of life after death, to stay trapped in a physical place because of his/her "beliefs."



[Edited on 8-4-2004 by Muaddib]





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