Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
Do you have any thoughts on "Revelation Chapter 14. Verse 3.? I would love to know your interpretation of this verse regarding....

"They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four Living Creatures,....... "

Peace...

I am not sure if you are talking to me, but assuming you are, I will be honest with you. I find Revelations to be the same confusing babble that I see in the writings of Paul.

In Daniel it is quite clear that there were those who were forecasting devices and I see that clearly to be speaking of Revelations...

Daniel 11: 14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.

24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

Honestly, I understand the prophets of the Tanakh much more clearly than I do the speaker of Revelations.

With the prophets, I can easily point to whom is being spoken of. I never thought I would, but I can. The research I have done on these prophets prophecies points to their writings to be talking about now and not then as many think.

It is clear to me, since these prophecies were said to be sealed until the end, that now considering the seals have clearly been broken, that we are at the end!

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by WhamBamTYM
I doubt I originated this concept, but I believe someone (or a group of someones) noted the prophecies of the Messiah's arrival and custom-crafted Jesus to fulfull that role. The objective was to give lawless, destructive mankind a moral framework and hope for the afterlife. And I wouldn't be surprised if this being (or group of beings) had large almond eyes!

LoL! Well, I do not know if you are kidding about the last part considering all the BS I have seen on this board... but doubtless you are correct that Jesus was tailor made to fit the role.

The reason I could never settle on that belief was, if I were to do such, how would I know that *this* time it was real considering the concept that is brought forth of Jesus was not new.

Having said that though, I do believe the Word was spoken by whomever wrote the story of Jesus. It was G.d's way of picking the snake (deception) up by the tail and turning it back into a staff (the law) for those who are paying attention and not given to man's mythologies. I find the whole of the TAnakh and how the deception was used against those doing the deceiving to be BRILLIANT beyond human intelligence.

[edit on 26-1-2009 by justamomma]

Jesus stood for the Law of One.
The Law of One is Christ.
That Law is spelled out in the later chapters of the pop gospel of John.

Man is a manifestation of the use of the Law of One to establish the law of separation.
The law of separation is as "old" as the foundations of the world.
The world is founded on the law of separation.
The law of separation is an agreement.
The agreement is an "old" agreement.
The world arises upon the "old" agreement.
The law of separation yeilds chaos.
Man arises out of the chaos.
The laws of man are for preventing chaos.
The Law of Love supercedes the laws of chaos prevention.
The Law of Love returns awareness to the Law of One.
Fully aware of the Law of One is to be unaware of the law of separation.
The Law of One is not subordinate to the law of separation.
Gravity is an example of the law of separation.
The law of separation is not a true law.
The Law of One supercedes it.
Separation comes and goes, subordinate to the Law of One.
Neither law has ever been broken.
The laws of chaos prevention make no difference and are of no consequence.
Laws that can be broken are not true laws.
If separation can be transcended by One, then separation was never a true law.

THE Law has never been broken.
So,
The world of separation has never been.

Christ!


[edit on 26-1-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by justamomma
This is in DIRECT contradiction to what G-d laid out for Israel. How cruel is that to lay out that Israel must be observant of the Sabbath day over and over, (punishable BY death for non compliance), turn around and send a man who not only thumbs his nose at this ordinance but also says that now the Father is thumbing his nose at it (though G-d had NOT said that he had changed His mind on this command) and expect all to believe this man who is contradicting what they had been told or they would be eternally damned! It makes NO sense and it is a farce. If it is NOT a farce, then there is REASON to be afraid because there is a game being played with man. It also goes to show you that Paul really MEANT “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.”

What Jesus represents generally contradicts what the gOd of Israel lays out because the gOd of Israel generally contradicts what the *Father* of Jesus lays out: a feast of truth. Paul was mistaken to attempt to associate the two. The "Son" of *Our Father* is Christ...nOt Jesus. Jesus is the "son of man", which is the son of the gOd of Israel...a kind of machine in the mind of Christ. The machine establishes the *law of separation* as the truth, and proceeds to found its world upon it. Christ is the Law of One. The Law of One is the end of the law of separation. Righteousness is simply to exodus the law of separation and return to the Law of One. A return to the Law of One is a return to *Our Father*. The return to *Our Father* defines the meaning of "righteousness". Why? Because when one realizes he is not home within the law of separation, the only "right" thing to "do" is to return Home.

From the very beginning of time, *Our Father* has been "working" to bring the law of separation to an end. His work is done through the Holy Spirit as opposed to the unholy spirit which establishes the law of separation as the truth. The Holy Spirit stands for Christ away from Home, and brings the separate ones back to the Law of One. This is the true meaning of "atonement". However this is accomplised is part of the *atonement*. So, *Our Father* has been working since the beginning of time, as well as Christ, the Holy Spirit, the architect of the atonement.

Despite the fact that Our Father and Christ/HolySpirit have been working since the beginning of time to end time, the gOd of Israel has made a world of wage earners, bound to time for eternity...if at all possible. It has done this through gOd-brand thinking. It's thoughts make up the world, and its thoughts perpetuate the world. And its world is nOt but confusion. Therefore, the true meaning of "Sabbath" is to rest from the thoughts that make up the world. As each one thinks, each one helps the gOd of Isreal maintain the world as prison for the Son of God. To rest, one must see that confusion rules the world and accept it. Accepting it, one need not attempt to make sense of it through his thinking, his judgments, his applied meanings, his attempts to understand what is meaningless. And this is true rest.

As one fasts [rests] from the thoughts that make up the world, the world begins to come undone, and nears a little nearer to its end. So this is the Sabbath of freedom. The sabbath of the gOd of Israel is not for freedom, but for the temporary respite of slaves, that they nOt revolt against the rule of confusion. This is more like "bread and circus" type thinking. The gOd of Israel cannot tolerate true resting, and must confuse the issue about rest.

A game is being played with man, but nOt without man's consent. It is a game of mass deciet. It is a game of self-deciet. The gOd of Israel is merely part of the deciet, and nOt the sole responsibility. The whole world is in on self-deciet from before the foundations of time and form.

The world is a serious game for those who like to take idols seriously. The purpose of the idol is to establish *specialness* opposed to the equality of the True GoD. Specialness requires that separation be the truth. So, it is made "law", opposing the Law of One. The many are serious about being special. It allows persons and nations to be the "chosen" one(s)...for example. But the true meaning of "chosen" is to be decided about leaving the law of separation for the Law of One. This is to be "elect", having decided to do what is right.

The law of separation is "holy" to the unholy spirit. Separation saves the special for specialhood. This saves the special from the Law of One, in which there are no special. Hence, "In Christ, there is no Jew or Greek, nor male or female, nor slave or free". All are free in Christ, as all are Freedom itself. And there is no difference among equals. The equal ones share the totality of everything equally, having and being all, in and of themSelves.

The "Son of Man" is the unholy spirits substitute for the "Son of God".
Each can be seen through mental filters. The Son of Man substitutes separation as the "truth", and symbolizes the beauty of the special. The Son of God is seen to affirm the truth of oneness, symbolizes reality, and leads Home.


Christ!




[edit on 27-1-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by justamomma
Honestly, I understand the prophets of the Tanakh much more clearly than I do the speaker of Revelations.

With the prophets, I can easily point to whom is being spoken of. I never thought I would, but I can. The research I have done on these prophets prophecies points to their writings to be talking about now and not then as many think.

It is clear to me, since these prophecies were said to be sealed until the end, that now considering the seals have clearly been broken, that we are at the end!

The end of time is the end of the law unto Christ for righteousness. The end of time depends on each one's choice to end of the law of separation as an experience of what is nOt Christ. As each one comes unto the Law of One, as Jesus demonstrated, he nears his "last days" in time...in the domain of the law of separation. Each one comes to his "last days" the same way Jesus came to his last days, by accepting the Law of One as the True Law of the True God *Our Father*. As such, Jesus, the Son of God, was under no laws but the Law of God. And in this way, he returned to *Our Father* to fulfill all righteousness. Righteousness is simply to return to *Our Father* by accepting that we are under no laws but the Law of GoD...*Our Father*.

So, we are nOt under the law of the gOd of Israel which is based on the law of separation. The laws of Israel are not different from the laws of any nation. They serve as chaos control. Chaos control is the same as damage control...an attempt to control the damage brought about by the law of separation, which the gOd of Israel upholds as the truth. As each one puts the Law of One topmost in his mind, his experience under the law of separation begins to change and lead toward Home where the Law of One is the Truth. When each is ready, time ends with the end of the law of separation as his experience. This is how time ends. Time does not end all at once for everyone unexpectedly. Time ends, one by one, two by two, expectedly. The one who ends time understands what he seeks: Eternity. That one understands how to seek it: true Sabbath.

Christ!

[edit on 27-1-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by CJaKfOrEsT
Friend, you meantion the Torah, but do you keep the opening statements of Leviticus? Leviticus 1:1-4
1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

I *can't* do that... you know why? Because Paul made sure that I couldn't along with the help of those who built the dome of the rock. This is spoken of all throughout the Tanakh and the ironic part is, you all say that sacrifices are over once and for all because of the barbaric human sacrifice.

The Tanakh clearly states that it is not. However, this is not to the true saints downfall and G.d speaks of why it is not. Because *we* having understood the voice of our Father and in following after His teachings/His ways/His path, are able to offer up our prayers as an offering to Him until He restores the temple and the way He had things set up.

He didn't desire the sacrifices, but He desired our understanding. Thus, He allowed for the sacrifices and offerings to cease for a time until His children FINALLY realized what it was they were missing.. aka, the right heart and the right understanding.

They will resume though. It has already been laid out as such. The fight that will take place according to revelations is actually against the Father's will.. It is deception against G.d's will.
[edit on 25-1-2009 by justamomma]

The world of separation is the world of the gOd of Israel, yeah, the gOd of the whole world. The genesis of gOd's world is the sacrifice of truth. As truth is sacrificed, confusion rises to replace it as "the truth". Confusion thrives as truth is continually sacrificed...daily. So, sacrifice is only important to the gOd of this world, which is also the gOd of Israel. The gOd of Israel is the gOd of sacrifice. There is no way to understand it or sacrifice except that confusion continues to uphold a world based on sacrifice. Without sacrifice, the world can not stand.

Mercy is the end of the world because mercy is the end of sacrifice. Animal sacrifices are symbolic of world genesis in which the "Lamb of GoD" was sacrificed that confusion might rise to take its place. Human sacrifice, like animal sacrifice, is symbolic of world genesis in which the Truth was sacrificed that confusion may rule in its place. Divine sacrifice is also symbolic of world genesis in which the Son of God was sacrificed that a machine, and the many sons of machine [man] may live instead.
All of these symbols are for perpetuating sacrifice.

It is a sacrifice to be a person, a man, a woman, a child.
The only way to be a man, woman or child is to sacrifice the truth.

Christ!

Well I don't usually find myself in disagreement with you as far as how it is. Where we have disagreements is in purpose and reasons for it.

I see it more in terms of consciousness and thought. Where god and our true selves are consciousness, and the universe is the thought.

You can't find the thinker in the thought, and people who look for themselves in the thought I don't think will find themselves. When they do look inside and see the truth, and see that separation is an illusion, then I think after that point it is about using that information and applying it to the thought.

Meaning, I find purpose in the separation, even though I realize the separation is nothing more than perception.

In essence, it seems that it's a matter of "to be, or not to be".

Originally posted by badmedia
Well I don't usually find myself in disagreement with you as far as how it is. Where we have disagreements is in purpose and reasons for it.

I see it more in terms of consciousness and thought. Where god and our true selves are consciousness, and the universe is the thought.

You can't find the thinker in the thought, and people who look for themselves in the thought I don't think will find themselves. When they do look inside and see the truth, and see that separation is an illusion, then I think after that point it is about using that information and applying it to the thought.

Meaning, I find purpose in the separation, even though I realize the separation is nothing more than perception.

In essence, it seems that it's a matter of "to be, or not to be".

I see the essential question also "to be or not to be"...Christ.
I see the alternative as the "Matrix".
I once thought to extend a youthful bodily "life" indefinitely using information from some source, as if to draw from some source.
It was not easy to give up that dream.
I see how tempting it is to go for some kind of quality of life while drawing on perceptions of information discovered.
I'm convinced that quality of life is found in exodus from perception as one is no longer willing to settle for less than everything...and holds the perfection in mind above all else.
The ways of the world [Matrix] has been explained to me in a way that turns me away from long-term plans to stay and play.
I've decided to take the energy and focus it would require to negotiate the labyrinth, and invest it in exodus toward the totality.
I'm convinced that it is only then that we get the kind of help from true Source that is in our best interests.
The Holy Spirit [Spirit of One] is all about exodus from the unholy spirit [spirit of many separate].
I am wary of *gifts* from the unholy spirit...the source of separation.
I feel that such gifts are defenses it uses to keep the game going.
If we are determined to keep the game going, we may be toyed with.
As we are determined to end the game, we may be offered gifts.
As Jesus was determined to overcome the world, he too was tempted with gifts...if only he would bow down to the gOd of this world.
I am wary that these gifts are ultimately defenses that motivate us to stay put and waste our time.
Whenever we waste time, we enable the unholy spirit to extend its time...the time it needs to keep sacrificing.
Time is in its best interest, not mine.

People are treated to mind-blowing experiences as they:
A. Toy with "source"
B. Determine to liberate themselves from the "Matrix".
I believe this is what's happening to justamomma.
I believe this is what happened to Paul.
I am convinced I am foolable so long as I dabble with separation concepts.
I am no match for the unholy spirit and its bag of 1001 tricks that keep us wandering in the desert for fourty thousand years.
It is only as I settle for nothing less than equality with GoD...to be Christ...that I feel the web of deciet loosening from my mind.
It is only as I increase my desire to be liberated that I seem able to see through trickery.
It is this that enables me to interpret the signs and symbols that show the way...to see through Paul's mixed up magic...see what he stole from "the Way"...and interpret it that it may makes sense again toward salvation.

Christ!



[edit on 28-1-2009 by Christ!]

But, you are still actually seeking separation. You are still seeing yourself today as being separated. I do not see myself as separated.

Originally posted by badmedia
But, you are still actually seeking separation. You are still seeing yourself today as being separated. I do not see myself as separated.

"See" is ambiguous.
For example,
"I can't see myself..." doing something, acting some way, identifying with something.
Then, there is another kind of seeing...call it "vision".
Vision starts with a definite purpose.
This would be like a shift in will after a period of reasoning.
The kind of vision Jesus was talking about was a perceptual shift.
Perception must yeild to the will to be one.
It yeilds a perception of the Son of God...Christ.
This is to be "seen" through "vision".
It is not the end of the journey.
It is still a perception.
The end of the journey is the end of perception.
The end of perception yields Christ...*known*...nOt perceived.
There is no "seeing" in Christ.
There is only *knowing*.
If one does not yet *know* Self as Christ, then the journey home is not finished.

Many people are playing the game of masks who are more interested in the masquerade than the masquerader...or in unmasking.
Christ consciousness is used to fuel the party and spike the punch.

Others understand that they are experiencing a masquerade, and its past midnight. These are the "weary" who are ready to return home. For these the will to go home gradually becomes stronger than the wish to stay and pray for party favors.

I am one who experiences the effects of an ancient wish to masquerade. I have seen the icebergs ahead, and I am turning the proverbial Titanic around. Like Amy Grant sings, "it takes a little time, to turn this Titanic around".

Are you turning the Titanic, or, are you still heading out to sea in the dark?
Heading out, we can arrange the chairs on the deck all we want, but it still goes down, over and over again.

Christ!

Good book suggestion to fit in with this thread "Paul The Mythmaker and the invention of Christianity" it's by a Talmudic scholar and quite good.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Good book suggestion to fit in with this thread "Paul The Mythmaker and the invention of Christianity" it's by a Talmudic scholar and quite good.

What the chief priests were to Israel is what Paul and friends were to Gentile brand Judaism [judeo-christianity]. Instead of animal sacrifices, one sacrificial Messiah. Think of Paul as a franchise owner, ripping off, and extending what had been working on the minds of masses of people to bow down to the gOd of this world...and supply a priesthood with an endless supply of goods. The franchise resulted in bishoprics in which the world was carved up into territory ruled by a neo-priesthood for Gentiles. As Peter mentioned in a letter, "we are a royal priesthood". Paul's eschatology reflected more the school of Pharisee, adapted to include Gentiles by way of belief in a neo-sacrifice. Paul's way was enough of a rip off to aggravate the Jews who did not agree the neo-sacrifice was their anticipated Messiah. Paul was ripping off their franchise, forcing their prophets to identify Jesus as a sacrificial Messiah, later to return as the anticipated nationalist-style king of Israel and a select "nation" of Gentile believers. In this way, Paul carved out for himself and others a way to function as a chief priest [and deserving of material support], rather than function as a hired hit man, or flunked desciple of Gamaliel.

In the confusion, the truth about Jesus has been well-nigh lost.
But no longer.

Christ!


[edit on 28-1-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by badmedia
Well I don't usually find myself in disagreement with you as far as how it is. Where we have disagreements is in purpose and reasons for it.

Here is what Adi Shankara taught on this many years ago.

"Now the question arises as to why the Supreme Lord created the world. If one assumes that Ishvara creates the world for any incentive, this slanders the wholeness and perfection of Ishvara. For example, if one assumes that Ishvara creates the world for gaining something, it would be against His perfection. If we assume that He creates for compassion, it would be illogical, because the emotion of compassion cannot arise in a blank and void world in the beginning (when only Ishvara existed). So Adi Shankara assumes that Creation is a sport of Ishvara. It is His nature, just as it is man's nature to breathe." en.wikipedia.org...

Other than sport, there is no purpose that makes sense, if one must presuppose that the "Supreme Lord" is already perfect.

That is partly why I often describe the world as a "joke", or, "party", or "masquerade", or "meaningless", or "insignificant", or "dream".
I am not a student of Adi.
Just converge on this point.

Christ!



[edit on 28-1-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
How will you know whether you have THE TRUTH or not .if you have nothing to compare what you think you know to what the real truth is ? ..in this world that is full of so many different ways and versions etc ...Unless you first know the truth (which are in the scriptures ..ALL OF THEM ...both OT and NT ) ..............

[edit on 23-1-2009 by Simplynoone]

Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice".
Truth is something to be recognized and accepted.
Why?
The truth is written on the heart of all.
Why?
The core identity of all is truth.
So,
When each is ready for the truth again, s/he will recognize it.

The scriptures you refer to are for nOt hearing the truth.
The OT and NT are mainly for drowning out the Voice for truth.
Why?
The whole world, believe it or not, is for drowning out the truth.
The world is a defense against the truth.
The bible is but one of its many elaborate defenses to keep the true GoD out, and keep the false gOd in.

Secretly, each is motivated to keep the truth out, however s/he can.
Comes a day when this secret wish must be exposed.
Till it is exposed to the light, it will continue to sabatoge your efforts to know the truth again as youSelf.
Till then, you will pretend to be learning all about the truth, only to find out that you are doing everything you can possibly do to keep it out.

I certainly do not need OT/NT scriptures to recognize source-text as the truth or not.
If the Holy Spirit penned a book then, the Holy Spirit can pen a book now.
But you would nOt recognize anything the Holy Spirit has truly penned for what it is...the truth.
And this is because you are nOt of the "sheep" who are willing to "hear".

Christ!

Originally posted by Christ!
What the chief priests were to Israel is what Paul and friends were to Gentile brand Judaism [judeo-christianity]. Instead of animal sacrifices, one sacrificial Messiah.

The similarity was this.... Paul and some of the chief priest were trying to submit these things as physical and thus, many lost the DEEP truths that were in the words. The Tanakh was ALL written while the Jewish people were in babylonian custody and it was written in a dramatized way to deptict deep wisdom!

What was written in the Tanakh was allegorical... the chief priests (though not all and as Paul did with Jesus) were submitting them as realities. Consider the following:

In Joshua 7 Achon is not the only one who suffers in the Valley of Achor (vv 24,25).

It is an allegory. It speaks for how our selfishness not only affects our life, but it affects the lives of those around us.


This was the point of the picture of the Son of man (which IS the Word of the LORD and not the man Jesus) being lifted up and crucified... to show that when we miss the point of the Word to exchange it for guilt, shame, fear etc, we in essence are crucifying the LORD.. His Word. (see.. nothing to do with Jesus).

Did you take it literally when the Word said in Matthew 5:

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Is anyone starting to see how the view I have been shown by the Father is more consistent than the view many are all holding to? Do you all still have your right eye? your right hand?

Even these are pictures of very deep truths considering the Word chose to insert the "right" side instead of the "left" side.

[edit on 29-1-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
It may take forever to even find the one road that is the way ................without a roadmap ..


Or will just stop and ask others for directions when you get lost ?

The world is a deliberate attempt to "get lost".
Use the bible if you are planning on going to Confusion, Nowhere
Follow your heart if you are going Home.

Christ!



[edit on 29-1-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Good book suggestion to fit in with this thread "Paul The Mythmaker and the invention of Christianity" it's by a Talmudic scholar and quite good.

Thank you for the suggestion. Personally, I think the basis for which the NT supposedly is based on is proof enough of Paul's message being false; still.. extra reading and searching should never be discouraged!