Why the bias AGAINST Hip Hop?

To get good rap like most other things you have to look underground.Dig people thats where the truth is.Dig under that shiny plastic fake layer and you will find some gems.Im fairly new to the rap scene(being a metal kid) and i despised rap because all i ever heard was mainstream rubbish.However after being exposed to some largely unknown artists ive grown to appreciate the genre.
RAP IS NOT ALL GANGSTA BS
Others have mentioned atmosphere and immortal technique and they are definitely a good place to start.

Originally posted by Azador
To get good rap like most other things you have to look underground.Dig people thats where the truth is.Dig under that shiny plastic fake layer and you will find some gems.Im fairly new to the rap scene(being a metal kid) and i despised rap because all i ever heard was mainstream rubbish.However after being exposed to some largely unknown artists ive grown to appreciate the genre.
RAP IS NOT ALL GANGSTA BS
Others have mentioned atmosphere and immortal technique and they are definitely a good place to start.

Thank you

I do not ask anyone to love rap. Or to hate rap. All I ask is to ignore the mainstream BS they play all the time that they produce for the 14 year old kids who will listen and buy anything, and listen to some real parts of it that do not speak the same message as do the current day singers of the genre.

I know my post still is not going to mean anything because all rap is about is sex, rape, and drugs

No offense but Hip Hop is repackaged Rap and Rap is to Music what Graffiti is to Art. To each is own though.....diff'rent strokes, brother.

There is a major difference between Hip Hop and Rap. In the words of KRS-One "Hip hop is a way of life" And it is true. Commercial is not all of the add-water-and-stir type, there are quite a few commercial artists out there with good messages and good lyrics. The video I'll post is a good example of this. But sadly they get lost in the mosh pit of ringtone rappers... These are rappers who release songs that are completely structured around a ringtone ie Souljah Boy/Ne-Yo2`1. Then you have rappers who are out there faking their image ( Vanilla Ice was the forerunner who proved that it was possible) and kids and young adults eat it up ie Gucci Mane/Plies. And finally you have these rappers who think they can rap but can't even create an original nursery ryhme and prolifically release the worse music I've ever heard ie Lil Wayne/T-Pain. You know the state of emergency hip hop is in when the winner of best hip hop artist of the year is Lil Wayne. An artists in hip hop is typically referred to as an MC, and there are many examples, though some of the best are underground. Rap was and always will be a money making tool. Hip hop will and always will be a way of life, a culture. Graffiti artists tagging subways in ny from the 80's, b-boys spinning on the dome on the corner, freestyling emcees on the come-up, that is hip hop. The stuff nowadays thats mainstream, thats not hip hop. I could go so far as to say that its not even rap. Its a bunch of money hungry people being backed by equally money hungry industry types to perform some kinda of psuedo rap ( alot of times these are simpler than 4th grade ryhmes) to make quick cash.

This is a list of Lyrical Artists which I think that people on this forum would enjoy.... Non-Phixion, Jedi Mind Tricks, Immortal Technique, Snowgoons, 7l & Esoteric, Celph-Titled, Krs-one, Common, Dead Prez... this list is by no means exhaustive. The aforementioned artists are considered conscious rap. One of the greatest albums ever created is by Jedi Mind Tricks - The Psycho-Social, Chemical, Biological & Electro Magnetic Manipulation Of Human Consciousness. (This would be the soundtrack for this forum)

As for the conspiratiorial aspect of this, I myself believe that the dumbing down of rap, is to further enable the enslaving of the future generations minds, and to keep them in a deeper sleep. Also so that it creates a racial dividing undertone to it. Which brings about the bias, even if at face-value it only seems because of the stupidity of the raps. Older people, white or black will view the rap they see , drugs, guns, money, simple mindedness, and apply it to a whole to the younger people of our country, and this music influences the behavior of the younger generations, so that they dress, act, talk and behave like those "souljah boy lil wayne" types. This creates animosity between the older and younger, thus keeping them divided.

The dumb are mostly intrigued by the drum- Jedi Mind Tricks




[edit on 3-1-2009 by M157yD4wn]

I think the main prejudice is not conspiracy, it's generational. Every generation has people that do not "get" music that differs from what they listened to when they were growing up. There is a ton a great music in many genres out there.. but most people are set in their ways and don't explore.

When some people point out rock in their post , is it in relation to metal or hard rock or pop/rock etc... ?

Anyway most of today´s rap is crap , you just put a group of black rapper´s with some white rapper in the middle , and some semi naked chicks dancing around.
And you have the recipe that will make alot of pseudo bad ass´s(holes) buy it , im not stereotyping , but the reality is that most are like that.
But then again i could apply this to most music genres.

[edit on 3-1-2009 by dracodie]

This is not about prejudice. Prejudice means to pre-judge. That would be true if people never listened to it before writing it off. Many listened to it and heard nothing worth listening to. They heard doggerel pretending to be poetic lyrics. They hear noise calling itself music. They heard glorification of violence and how the degradation of women is the way of the world. They saw the awards show and the winner was just another loser. They see young men acting the part of the pretend tough guys who record the rap. They see those same pretend tough guys wearing diamonds and gold while not helping those in their community that have made them wealthy. They see selfish, egomaniacal, no-talent frauds who are putting one over on the same people that they use in their recordings.

Rap is crap. It is not music. It requires little talent. It has no redeeming social value. Let it wither and die.

reply to post by Osiris1953


In response to Osiris1953's original post...

I would like to say that hip hop/rap is very much alive and appreciated nowadays in what we like to call underground hip-hop...in fact one of my favorite artists says it all in a song of his you might enjoy titled open your eyes

his name is immortal technique and he can tell you all about the 3rd world...in an underground fashion

all of the good hip-hop/rap that we can appreciate is still out there...in the hearts of artists with a passion and a message for the genre which has grown so much... your just talking about "mainstream hip-POP" as i like to call it...

they are all funded by TPTB, they can take their satanic rap elsewhere...

Originally posted by PowerSlave
I think alot of people are put off by rap just because of the lack of instruments used. I know I am. I see these guys ripping older rock songs, for lack of originality or musicianship. The music I listen to is mainly for the music and not so much about lyrical content.

I want to hear the guitars, the (real)drums etc. not electronics and computer programs. I believe real and good music has a soul and I respect good players even if I don't neccesarily like the genre of music.
Programmed beats have no soul or human feel.

Sometimes things are not programmed, and just may sound like it. I'd give the example of ?uestlove. That man is soo precise it sounds like its programmed, but he is just that good.

As for real instruments, you can't group all rap with that, there are plenty of rap acts who use live instruments.

But I do see what you are saying, the music can become repetitive, if your listening from a instrumental point of view.

But all this new stuff is just garbage. I think that goes with rock as well. except I am loving the indie stuff coming out right now.

Originally posted by FritosBBQTwist

Rap song comes on. Oh - It could be a CD or whatever. Let it be this song.
Immortal Technique - Leaving the Past

Song speaks truth. It is not the everyday crap you hear. It is not main stream. It is not some brand new beat. What do I hear the second it comes on from any type of older person in the area that I could be familiar with? Nigger music.

For reference, the track I paused to listen to that was Wes Montgomery's Four on Six.

I'd suggest buying any CD that includes that track, and using it to beat the living hell out of anyone who uses the phrase "Nigger Music". You might want to buy a Wes box set or put the CD case in a sock to accomplish this task more effectively. Listening to it is also strongly recommended.

The problems I have with the track you posted - as in, why I find myself struggling to restrain myself from shutting it off - are these:

- The guitar line and drum loop are not properly synched. There's a slight hesitation in the drum beat as the loop refreshes, and it just jumps out at me.
- The guitar line, while good, is held at a constant level throughout - IMO it gets buried in the drums.
- I like the horn, a bit Mangione for my tastes, but it's a nice touch, and it fits. It's totally buried in the mix, though - except at the outro.

Overall, this COULD have been a good track. A less generic drum line, perhaps using a live drummer, would do wonders for it, as would a competent sound engineer. I could picture a fretless bass (electric or upright) working in there as well, to round out a bit of the guitar line currently being lost. Frankly, having studio musicians record the entire track live would do so much for this track - give it a bit more of an organic feel - which seems to me to be what they were shooting for. As it stands, the samples get very robotic overall.

The problem is that it's not about the song, is it? It's about the vocal line - or more specifically in this case, the message in the vocal line. It loses a lot by not working with the music.

On listening to it a third time, I can't say that enough thought has gone into the music. It's as though the track has been quickly pasted together on Pro Tools (or Garageband) solely to serve as background noise for a bit of spoken poetry. To me, as a musician and a music lover, that's a bit insulting somehow. Perhaps I'm missing the point, but it's just not something I'd choose to listen to again. It's just not very good. A good idea, perhaps, but poorly executed.

All that is why I'd change the station if it came on the radio. Like a lot of music of this genre, the music comes across as an afterthought, something of secondary importance to the message. It can be done well. I know it can be done well. I've heard it done well. Unfortunately, all too often it isn't done well.

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by Ahabstar

 

You quoted the following: I think he (Weird Doug) summed it up best, "Some of the most argent supporters of Mia Angelou and spoken verse hold the deepest disdain for Rap and cannot explain why." He was speaking of whites, to put it in to context.

Ah, we have some pronoun trouble here. The "he" I am referring to is a friend that grew up with a guy they called "Weird Doug" who is professionally known as Doug E Fresh, The Human Beatbox.

So when I say old school, La-Di-Da-Di, The Show and other songs like that. Throw in some Run-DMC, The Fat Boys or even Wil Smith in his Fresh Prince days. But as others have said, to fully appreciate the form you have to find the guys on the street. As a genre is most embodies the maxum of "write about what you know".

As far as music, well Micheal Jackson is known as a talented musician yet he plays no instrument and the majority of his hit were writen by someone else.

I hope that cleared that up a bit

As to why the bias? Likes and dislikes are always decided on both a personal but mostly on a social basis. Acceptance by one's circle of friends or group has strong influence. Very few stand on their own. Personally, I don't care for the offerings of 50cent or T.I.P. nor GWAR or even Faster Pussycat. Yet I like a lot songs by Johnny Cash, Soundgarden, Paliment-Funkadelic, The Cranberries, Black Sabbath and recently found an appreciation for Bob Dylan, whose music made me cringe for years.

The reason for the bias is mainly ignorance, people who hate hip hop and say it's talentless rubbish simply don't know any better. You can't exactly blame them, since hip hop is just so incredibly different from any other genre of music.

The thing is, With any other genre of music, the quality of music is based on how pleasing the song is to the ear, how complicated the riffs are, how good the singer is, how meaningful the lyrics are, and stuff like that, and hip hop doesn't put emphasis on any of those things. Hip hop instead places emphasis on other things the average music listener isn't trained to look for, since they don't know what to look for they miss what makes hip hop so amazing, and it comes off as sounding like garbage to them.

You play the average music fan a song produced by dj premier, the beat will sound incredibly simple to them, and subsequently they will probably think dj premier didn't put to much effort into the beat. What they don't know is that dj premier sampled an obscure spanish song from the 70's and chopped the sounds up till they aren't recognizable anymore. He also used a bunch of compressors, filters, and eq's to shape the sounds of each individual kick, snare, hihat to get them to sound as crisp and hard hitting as possible. And each individual kick snare an hihat is sampled from obscure records few people have heard before.

If anyone here makes hip hop music, or makes sample based beats, then you'll know what I'm talking about. Sampling has a real negative ring to it, hip hop is notorious for using samples, which partly leads to the bias. The average person who has never tried sample based music before will think that's it's just stealing music, unaware of all the effort and passion that is put to the music.

So, musicaly and instrumentaly speaking, that is why alot of people dismiss it. Vocally, again hip hop is very different. Rather then putting emphasis on how well you can sing and how deep your lyrics are, emphasis is placed on your breath control, your flow, and announciation, and how complicated your rhyme patersn are.

You play the average person an eminem song, they will most likely think eminem is talking junk about nothing important, and he's just talking over a beat. They don't realize eminem just rhymed every sylable in his first bar with every sylable in his second bar. They don't realize that his flow and breath control are so amazing he makes it look simple, and that it is actually quite complicated.



There is alot that goes into hip hop that alot of people don't realize. Even talking to "the real heads", they don't quite know everything. Hip hop is something that you will not understand just by listening to it, you have to have someone there to teach you about it. That's why alot of suburban white hipsters love rappers like sage francis, slug and aesop rock, becase those rappers break down the typical barriers of hip hop. It is something they can relate to more, since rappers like that do place some emphasis on the more traditional aspects, like how deep your lyrics are. Those rappers tend to do alot of 'arty' type songs, that sound really profound and deep. Meanwhile, these same hipster may not understand a rapper like ludacris or Slim thug, even though ludacris and slim thug put just as much effort into their music as krs one or lupe fiasco.

It's too compluicated an issue to really fix this, people will always be ignorant, my advice would be to just let them be, and enjoy for yourself the diamond in the dirt that is hip hop.

I think the real reason for the preponderance of bad rap is the same reason that almost every popular genre seems to end up being a crass, pointless reflection of itself, and thats the way the music industry operates. The business is like a circle of sheep, all following each others back sides. When something outside breaks in there is an immediate attempt to monetize (I really hate that word but it fits) and homogenise it. What was once genuine feeling by people expressing themselves becomes entertainment performed by people who are selected to look good rather than have anything meaningful to contribute. Rap has suffered worse than most from this but all genres have succumbed eventually. Thats the nature of the business. If you want good music of any genre you'll have to search for it because the industry simply isn't interested in presenting it to you. It doesn't make as much money by taking risks. I say this as someone who retired from my reasonably senior industry position for pretty much this very reason. The music industry is the lazy way to get music and, ultimately, music is generally as good as the effort we put into finding it. Don't complain that the majors are rubbish though. Be aware that rubbish is their job.

WOW; ok, There is a very large difference between HIP HOP and RAP. They contrast like night and day. Hip hop is positivity, and rap is negativity. Its not always cut and dry like that, but its the general rule. If you are talking about getting things for yourself, maiming others, and general consumerism, you are talking about RAP.

Emineim + Eazy-E + 8Ball + lil wayne = RAP


Wu-tang - C.R.E.A.M

Now on the other end of the spectrum you have HIP-HOP. but you will find that the basic elements hip hop derived from The Bronx in the very late 70's. Afrika Bambaataa worked with hip hops founding fathers to become one of the first communities in the history of the nation that let people of many races convene and listen to good vibes. Asians, Hispanics, African Americans and white punkers changed gang activities to spread the word about creativity and expression. instead of fighting, graffiti became an honored tradition. Giuliani could cry all he wanted, graffiti is 99.5% safer than bar brawls. TRUE Hip Hop teaches that community and love are very important, for everyone, not just themselves.

MadLib + A Tribe Called Quest + Mos Def + Souls of Mischief = Hip Hop



Blackalicious - Shallow Days

There are some that ride the line fairly well, like Nas, maybe even The Pharcyde, or MF DOOM for that matter, but dont call the S%$T on MTV and the radio "HIP HOP", because it probably isnt.....

still one of the best songs ever
If you dont like this following song, you probably dont care much for music in general, IMO

Us3 - Cantaloup



[edit on 4-1-2009 by drsmooth23]

I never really saw the difference in name...I would classify all hip hop, rnb, and rap - under one category - rap.

I completely agree on artists nowadays such as Lil Wayne, Souljah Boy, all being garbage. I can not believe people would waste the money on that stuff - but who am I to judge...

To speak the truth - I guess I can not really despise anyone who hates rap/hip hop. After all, the only type of that music that gets played anymore is by the current "crappy" artists. It truly is amazing how much the internet can educate one self by opening a person up to new ideas. I guess many people today though do not appreciate that because they have not find the fun in surfing the web

Its also true that after hearing a few bad songs on the radio (you know, ones that most would think are leading the way), it would be very possible to hate a whole genre.

While there sure are other issues than the current artists, I guess I would have to put the blame on all of them for putting such a bad name on a genre. As to everything in life, there are exceptions too. For the most part, the only people that I even know that listen to some soulful type hip hop are the ones that are the same people that know the ins and outs of the internet and can find pretty much anything they want.

If I put my mom on here and tell her to find a good rap song I bet the first thing she would find would be Lil Stayne (I know I spelled it wrong).

reply to post by FritosBBQTwist


If the "rhythm and poetry" has a positive message and/or tells me a story, i can listen to it. When its just a bunch of 'hay's and ho's," kill kill kill, womanizing and race bashing, i'll turn it off.

I love a good beat, drove a bass competition car for a while.



[edit on 1/4/2009 by TheExaminer]

Hip/Hop itself is not the problem. There are many artist who don't fit into the 'gansta rap' category but not many people buy there music. You can't get mad at the artist for trying to do what will sell. If you want things to change then the fact that society glorifies violence has to change. Young people are influential. I'm not a gang banger or a so called thug but I am a young black male and I personally think that rap influence violence on a certain level. And personally I think things will get worse. One thing most people do not realize is that the rappers are not doing what they say on there albums. They aren't living that gangsta lifestyle. Money changes everybody no matter where you come from. How can you be a legit millionaire if you in the hood shooting, robbing, and selling drugs. My city is not that big but it is majority african american. I see people all the time quoting rap lyrics and referring to themselves. Nobody wants to be labeled as 'soft' and that is the way society is now. You see people who dream of being the biggest drug dealer because someone raps that they made a million selling drugs. But what about the person who made a million becoming a lawyer or doctor. If someone was rapping about going to college getting an education he would not sell many albums because education is not glorified it is only talked about. There are positive hip/hop artist out there; they just are not the ones on the radio or tv all the time. Please don't hate hip/hop just find the type of songs for you, because there are positive songs out there. Thanks for your time and I hope what I have written is understandable.

sorry for the short reply but rap blows. the whole east coast vs west cosdt thing. gold grills. crunk juice....there are so many things wrong with rap. i remember being young and everyone thinking it was a fad that was gonna go away. boy were they wrong. they(the rappers) have turned themselves into moguls and now head up empires. something rockers didn't do

my little brother went to a little wayne concernt in cleveland last night. i was listening to some of his stuff with my bro before he went to the concert and it is horrnedous. there is nothing of musical value to be had in about 90% of rap music. to top it off part of the reason i can't stand this little wayne turd is he walks around with a cup of water and nyquil. that is his drink of choice....there is a message for the 15 year olds that adore him...go ahead and get high off nyquil kids

reply to post by thing fish


Lil Wayne is trash, so is Kanye (with exception) and most mainstream Hip-Hop is designed to require as little thought as possible. The real Rap wont win awards and get played on MTV but it's out there. Honestly the poetry in classic Hip-Hop is amazing, on par with any form of verbal expression. I'm currently listening to Doe or Die by AZ, more tracks like this need to be produced.