What is the 3rd best military ??

Originally posted by AtheiX
They can undertake those missions. Devilwasp already told you that.

[edit on 7-8-2005 by AtheiX]

No I said both units where CT , they cant conduct operations in deserts but any terrain in germany they can.
They also cant conduct sabotage missions.
They are police not military.

Originally posted by devilwasp
They are police not military.

They are Border Guard, not the police, and not the military.

[edit on 7-8-2005 by AtheiX]

1) U.S.A.
2) China
3) Russia
4) U.K.
5) North Korea
6) Iran
7) Vatican City
8) Italy

lol:

[edit on 08/12/71 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by AtheiX
They are Border Guard, not the police, and not the military.
[edit on 7-8-2005 by AtheiX]

Sorry , my mistake yes they are border guards not police , but they still cant perform ALL the operations like SAS or GROM.

Ps, why is france not even in the top 8^?

[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
1) U.S.A.
2) China
3) Russia
4) U.K.
5) North Korea
6) Iran
7) Vatican City
8) Italy

Iran in the top 8, and Germany not? We are more powerful than Iran. Iran wouldn't stand a chance in a war with us.

[edit on 7-8-2005 by AtheiX]

Originally posted by AtheiX
Iran in the top 8, and Germany not? We are more powerful than Iran. Iran wouldn't stand a chance in a war with us.

[edit on 7-8-2005 by AtheiX]

Yeah iran wouldnt, I mean come on they'd need to cross half a dozen airspaces and seas just to fight you. And frankly I cant see them being bothered...

No, I was talking about the END of the war, not the beginning. You didn''t have 600,000 soldiers. The number of 250,000 soldiers was given by a POLISH history book written by Wlodzimierz Medrzecki and Robert Szuchta. Yes, I know Polish language.

Cool. It's great to find out that a foreigner knows my language.
The source you spoke about is a secondary school book… Don’t treat it as a legit source of information. I myself had to suffer because of mistakes made in SCHOOL books.

This here is a government site:
www.poland.gov.pl...
www.poland.gov.pl...

210,000 men among the western Allies + 330,000 on the eastern front = 540,000 men.

The most powerful nations in the war were:
1. Russians
2. Americans
3. English
4. Polish

The British are ONE nation. Ask any Britishman.

A Scot would spit you in the face. So would an Irish. There’s a book about Scots at the end of WWII, “Taniec Kogutów” by Stanisław Broszkiewicz. A great read.

As for the USSR, they were not one nation, but their authorities were trying to make them one nation. Besides, the USSR was dominated by Russia (it was just a federation of countries under Russian rule), so we can speak of Russians.

Great. So speak only of Russians and not treat people from countries under a ruthless regime as a nation. Russians, without other nations of the USSR, were the first most powerful nation, no doubt about that.


Okay, now let’s stop arguing and come to a conclusion. Here’s what I want to state and what you will not agree with, but that’s your own opinion and I respect that:

In its history, it has developed a great tradition, as any other country. A very important part of this tradition is connected with polish military which had it’s time of glory at the time of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, when the country was (as I think) a military power. You may say that there were more powerful countries but we were in the top 5 and were respected. After the wars with Sweden and Turkey, our times of glory have ended. After that, we got partitioned by four empires. Our own politicians sold the country to them in a naïve belief that we would be left alone. The country disappeared but the nation resisted their oppressors, not allowing them to destroy their culture and tradition. It became a noble tradition to fight even impossible odds. Our uprisings all lost (except one, actually) but we remained stubborn. We had more than 4 uprisings, more than any other nation in the world. Everyone loses sometime. We accepted our failures and

In 1939 we were attacked by two great military powers: the Nazi Germany and USSR. We were attacked by surprise (and that’s a fact, so do historians say). Though very weak, we resisted the oppressors. We had fewer men and outdated equipment but we lasted a month. It is not a short period of time. It took the Nazis the same time to overtake France (and you state that French were more powerful than us). We had 600,000 men fighting in WWII (the French had 400,000), hoping to regain their freedom and willing to defeat the Nazis. Without us, the Allies would win, yes. But it would cost many more lives. We were a significant side in the war. We haven’t regained full freedom (but our country didn’t become a part of the USSR). Yet again the nation had nothing to say and their country was sold by the politicians. And politicians not always speak on behalf of their nations, PZPR and SED did not.

You know a lot about history, probably more than I do. But your info can always be biased. Some of it is. I was wrong in one of my statements too.
Yes, polish history is not the most important but you don’t have enough knowledge to state comments that insult a nation. We do not have a bad military tradition.


[edit on 7-8-2005 by Johnny]

Originally posted by AtheiX
Iran in the top 8, and Germany not? We are more powerful than Iran. Iran wouldn't stand a chance in a war with us.
[edit on 7-8-2005 by AtheiX]

You're as fanatic a patriot as I am or what!?

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
1) U.S.A.
2) China
3) Russia
4) U.K.
5) North Korea
6) Iran
7) Vatican City
8) Italy

that's a joke, right?

no.3?? damn that's too hard The US is so ahead of everyone in size and power it makes it hard choosing no.2 and no.3 in comparison

I think France or UK would have it. Medium size defence forces that are highly capable and high tech.

thanks,
drfunk

Originally posted by Johnny

Originally posted by AtheiX
Iran in the top 8, and Germany not? We are more powerful than Iran. Iran wouldn't stand a chance in a war with us.
[edit on 7-8-2005 by AtheiX]

You're as fanatic a patriot as I am or what!?

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
1) U.S.A.
2) China
3) Russia
4) U.K.
5) North Korea
6) Iran
7) Vatican City
8) Italy

that's a joke, right?

Yes, it was intended as a joke. Germany not on the list, but Iran is? No mention of trying to debunk that the Vatican was on the list.

The whole arguement is mute, really.

Greatest military powers in the world? According to what standards?

Most amount of military soldiers would be China.

Highest ethical and moral codes would be a toss up.

Highest level of technology would probably be a toss up, although most would argue it is America.

People most willing to die for thier country? Depends on the call of the moment, the short term reasoning.

Intelligence and power to manipulate other countries, well that is a shared "virtue" as well.

It really depends on many facets and ingredients:
1) Largest army, people.
2) Nuclear capabiltity, yes or no.
3) Largest Air Force (aircraft and airfields worldwide).
4) Largest Navy (ships and ports worldwide).
5) How effective at acquiring dependable intelligence.
6) HOW effective at command and control; COMMUNICATION.
7) Strenght of do or die ALLIES. (Who has most powerful treaties/allies)
8) Dependability of highest Technology.
9) Fortitude of individual military members, education of individual military members.

My point is there are entirely too many factors for any 1 country to say they are unconditionaly better than any other.

That is why we need wars, to settle these arguements with cold hard BOOMING loud PROOF!!!

OH:
10) Win loss ratio.

[edit on 08/12/71 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by Johnny


Cool. It's great to find out that a foreigner knows my language.
The source you spoke about is a secondary school book… Don’t treat it as a legit source of information. I myself had to suffer because of mistakes made in SCHOOL books.

This here is a government site:
www.poland.gov.pl...
www.poland.gov.pl...

210,000 men among the western Allies + 330,000 on the eastern front = 540,000 men.

The most powerful nations in the war were:
1. Russians
2. Americans
3. English
4. Polish

Whoah there!!!
English?
Did scotland not fight in the war?

A Scot would spit you in the face. So would an Irish. There’s a book about Scots at the end of WWII, “Taniec Kogutów” by Stanisław Broszkiewicz. A great read.

Guess what mate , I am a scot, born and bred here and believe me WE are british but we are scottish as well.
Books wont tell you as well as a real person will.

Edited by Esoteric Teacher to acknowledge the military hierarchy of the great Indian and Pakistanian military powers.

[edit on 08/12/71 by Esoteric Teacher]

^^
Why is this guy putting Germany everywhere??

India what happened to India and Pakistan??
They're BOTH better thatn half the scrap on that list!!

Originally posted by Johnny


The most powerful nations in the war were:
1. Russians
2. Americans
3. English
4. Polish

You forgot about 2 nations - Germans and Japanese. They were on the opposite side, but that doesn't change the fact that they were among the most powerful nations in the war. They were more powerful than the English and the Polish.

A Scot would spit you in the face. So would an Irish. There’s

I haven't seen anyone here say that someone is English. But I have seen some people say that someone is British.

A very important part of this tradition is connected with polish military

No. (that's what I'm talking about - I mean, you can connect your tradition to your military, but I'm talking about how were you militarily in the past)

which had it’s time of glory at the time of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, when the country was (as I think) a military power.

I wouldn't say so. That is because you had your "times of glory" before the commonwealth was established. You won the last three wars with the Teutonic Knights and war with Halich Russia before the commonwealth was established. (The commonwealth was established in 1569).

You may say that there were more powerful countries but we were in the top 5 and were respected.

I woulnd't say you were in the top 5.
I would say that the top 5 were France, imperial England, Prussia, Russia, the Habsburgs empire and Sweden. I can tell you why if you want.

After the wars with Sweden and Turkey, our times of glory have ended.

How can you claim that the 17th century was glorious for you? You lost one war with Russia, tied another, lost one war with Sweden (despite winning the fighting), tied another, and won two wars with Turkey.

After that, we got partitioned by four empires.

Three, not four. Also, Prussia was not an empire. It was a military power, but not an empire.

The country disappeared but the nation resisted their oppressors, not allowing them to destroy their culture and tradition.

There was a russification and germanisation, and you have resisted a little, but you failed. For example, under Prussian rule, you had to obey the Prussian authorities and speak German in offices. I am not saying your culture was destroyed, but it was hit.
And, your culture was not destroyed. So what? You were completely run by the three partition powers.

It became a noble tradition to fight even impossible odds.

What's noble about fighting against odds (unless you win)?

Everyone loses sometime.

But you lost many wars.

In 1939 we were attacked by two great military powers: the Nazi Germany and USSR. We were attacked by surprise (and that’s a fact, so do historians say).

No, you were not surprised and historians say that you were not surprised. In the book I mentioned before, it says that already your Marshall Pilsudski expected an agression of both countries.

Though very weak, we resisted the oppressors.

You were fighting, but you lost. Stop trying to make your loss noble. A loss is a loss, and it is always a shame. I am not trying to make Germany's loss in WWI noble.

We had fewer men and outdated equipment but we lasted a month. It is not a short period of time.

It is a short period of time, especially to take over a country as big as your country was in 1939.

It took the Nazis the same time to overtake France

Which is a short period of time.

(and you state that French were more powerful than us).

I said that the French were more powerful than you by the end of the war.

Without us, the Allies would win, yes. But it would cost many more lives. We were a significant side in the war.

No. The Allies would have won without you as easily as they did with you. For example, they could have just waited until they constructed a nuclear bomb and then drop nuclear bombs on Germany.
In a conventional war, the Allies wouldn't lose much more men, either. You didn't kill many German soldiers during the Italian campaign (because there weren't many German soldiers in Italy at all). And the Allies had much bigger population than the Axis (don't forget about the US, USSR, Australia and all British overseas possessions).

We haven’t regained full freedom (but our country didn’t become a part of the USSR).

You did regain your freedom from the Nazis (thanks to the USSR), but you lost it to the USSR. In other words, you didn't regain your freedom, you lost it to someone else. Until 1990, you were completely run by the USSR, and your commie authorities obeyed the USSR.

you don’t have enough knowledge to state comments that insult a nation.

I'm not insulting anyone. I am saying that I think that because you have lost so many wars, you cannot claim to have a great military tradition. Let's say that you don't have a bad military tradition. But I think that you also don't have a great military tradition.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by AtheiX]

Originally posted by devilwasp
Guess what mate , I am a scot, born and bred here and believe me WE are british but we are scottish as well.
Books wont tell you as well as a real person will.

These were different times. The Scottish had a different attitude (That's what the book said and what some of your grandpas/fathers would say).

Originally posted by Johnny
These were different times. The Scottish had a different attitude (That's what the book said and what some of your grandpas/fathers would say).

I speak to my grandparents about the war, as I said, books dont tell you like real people do.

Originally posted by AtheiX
I'm not insulting anyone. I am saying that I think that because you have lost so many wars, you cannot claim to have a great military tradition. Let's say that you don't have a bad military tradition. But I think that you also don't have a great military tradition.

You have a right to have your own opinion. You know some facts from your own point of view. I know some from mine. Let's end the discussion.
Before the commonwealth was established, we had a personal union with Lithuania (who were the Teutons fighting in 1410?). This made us one country.
Piłsudski was dead for five years when we were attacked. Oh, I guess Americans knew the Japanese will attack Pearl Harbor too.
I don’t want you to tell me why those countries were more powerful than us at the time we were not a military power, when we were weakened by years of wars. You keep saying about the XVIIth century and after. How about the times before? Poland existed 700 years before XVIIth century. That’s a LOT of time. We had our times of glory in that period. We won a lot of wars then.
If your info comes from a secondary school book, I can’t treat your info as legit.
We were not completely run by these empires. You don’t know the facts. If we failed, I’d be speaking deutsch or ruski now.
Fighting against odds IS noble. As a German, you don’t know anything about honor and saving your own country. You always were the agressors and lost in greatest conflicts, your country was ashamed because you followed the greatest MADMAN in HISTORY, your nation killed millions of innocent people of every nation. We have a great military tradition, and you can’t say about military tradition and glory yourself. Poles have not slaughtered innocent people (and don’t say we did in the Middle Ages, you were ones dripping with blood of Arabic women and children).
Don’t theorize. History is history. There are facts. And the fact is we were the 4th strongest nation at the end of the war and we HAD 600,000 men and they were of great importance to the Allies. If they were not important, our country would not exist or would have become a USSR republic.
Allies did not win the war easily. They did not have old men and children in their armies, like the Germans.


All I have to state.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by Johnny]

Originally posted by devilwasp
I speak to my grandparents about the war, as I said, books dont tell you like real people do.

Four people. Your grandfathers fought in the war?

Originally posted by Johnny
Four people. Your grandfathers fought in the war?

My gran's didnt, but both my grand fathers where in the war...
One in kenya with the RAF and another in the RN...nethier seen much if any action I think...havent really asked them about that...

Originally posted by devilwasp
My gran's didnt, but both my grand fathers where in the war...
One in kenya with the RAF and another in the RN...nethier seen much if any action I think...havent really asked them about that...

You should have asked them.
Scots had separate corps in the WWII, right?

My grandmother's brother served in one of the Independent Polish Commando Companies. I regret that I never had the chance to ask him.



AtheiX, was anyone from your family a soldier in the WWII?

[edit on 8-8-2005 by Johnny]