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“... Abd al-Rahman, Sultan of Cordova, in his letter to King Joseph of the Chazars (about 960 A.D.), ... speaks of the tradition according to which the Chazars once dwelt near the Seir Mountains.” (The Jewish Encyclopedia, 4:3.) Remember, the Seir was a mountain range south of the Dead Sea, the “Seir Mountains” being none other than the original land of Esau. “Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.” (Gen. 36:8.) Therefore, the Jews admit that the Chazar (Khazar) Jews are from Esau.
ETA: Dangit! I really need to check thread dates before I reply.edit on 13-4-2014 by InvisibleOwl because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: Rosha
The one little snippet you didn't red line that is very important to discussing this issue with actual intellectual honesty is:
'the world's Jewish communities closely resemble not only each other but also Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese, suggesting that all are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the Middle East some four thousand years ago"
This makes it quite clear that Palestinians et al are ALSO equally entitled to the land - if genetics are to be the only marker for a 'right to exist' policy. Again, Jews and Palestinians according to your own post, have a COMMON ancestral population group. Hard to ignore that one. This underlines the stance most opposing the SOI take that in asking us to accept what Israel does in Palestine, is asking us all to accept fratricide as 'ok'.
I for one can't accept that. Murder is murder.
I think few scholars biblical or otherwise would say to any individual human being or group ' you have no right to exist'. In the case of Zionist Israel however, what most people object to is the claiming of the other "rights" that have been claimed along side of that - the right to murder, imprison, intimidate, discriminate and bully another person or population, for not being 'like you' or for having the misfortune to have been born in a land their ancestors were born into that apparently, someone else thinks is there's by divine right.
I personally, would also question if these Zionist based policies and the push for state hood as a whole is actually of Jewish origin at all. Keeping mind that when discussing this issue, the clash between Zionist supporting Jewish and Zionist non supporting Jewish groups is still ongoing and can't just be brushed aside so easy.
History documents the rise of Zionism very very well as a political class but ultimately a trans-nationalist group of manipulative tyrants. It is also reasonable to assert that after the initial wave of immigration under the Balfour declaration, Jewish groups and Palestinians lived side by side in relative peace IN PALESTINE, until the Zionist invasions overtook their political subsystems and began to press influence on Jewish religious ideologues in country. As was noted even before the arrival in Palestine, Zionists in 1938 were already long considered collaborators with Nazi Germany by many Torah abiding Jewish people :
"The Krasner Rav testified that his father-in-law, the Shimloyer Rav, cried out before he was killed by the Nazis, "Only the wickedness of the Zionists has caused this! It happened to us because we did not protest against them enough." source
And now you ask people to support this same group in supporting the 'right to exist' of a Jewish state based on Zionist control, law and principles? I cant do that, not and be faithful to the principles of 'never again'. To support Zionist Israel is to support a new holocaust as far as I am concerned.
Worse, Zionists have claimed to be a hand of God..when the reality is that according to the Torah, the state of Israel (SOI) as it is, contradicts the Jewish belief that the messiah will come and afterwards all the Jews will return to the Holy Land. ie: the Jewish people will go there under the messiah's leadership not under the hand of political Zionism.
So they are then, at least to me and several million Jewish people, the ones written of that 'placed themselves in the position of God' .....with all that implies.
I guess too, that it may also be a case of who and how much you pay for the DNA results, as I've seen mitochondrial DNA studies that show the opposite to what you've written here, and have even posted on them here at one time. I will have to go look for that post and the studies all over again before writing in academical sense. I will though as this is important.
The old generation of posters here who knew this stuff inside out are slowly retiring or moving away from discussion of this issue and I can't sit idyly by to see a perhaps less informed generation of posters arriving here be manipulated unchallenged, by purveyors of 'new speak' and the plethora of Israeli uni students who, according to Jerusalem post itself, are being paid to write posts extremely similar to this one and push the Zionist agenda as wide and far as they can.
originally posted by: Bigwhammy
The term Jew is a nationality not a race or religion. The religion is Judaism yet you can still be a Jew and Christian. Nationality and race are not the same thing. There are Jews of varying races, just like there are Americans of various races. For instance, Israel has brought many black Jews home from Ethopia.
[edit on 1/2/2009 by Bigwhammy]
originally posted by: GoldenFleece
Why are the Khazars and the Khazarian Empire not mentioned in any history books?
Why have Jewish historians and authors like Arthur Koestler meticulously documented the Caucasian ancestry of Ashkenazim Jews if it wasn't true?
I think the OP is trying to re-write history.
originally posted by: star in a jar
Well, why are the Zionists not looking for a homeland in modern-day Kharzia instead of 'going back' to the Middle East??
Rather interestingly enough I could not find a single hit on 'Kharzia' even though it was supposed to have been an kingdom back in the day.
This is incredibly strange. For an kingdom that never seemed to have existed, some scholars seem to have a lot of info on it
I have read accounts that only 10-20 percent of Israelis can claim ancestry to the area containing Israel, the rest are from abroad who came by the masses after WW2.
The point is... Why are the Zionists looking to expand their territory in the Middle East when they should be looking at the places the Nazis kicked them out of (Europe)
But I suppose we know what happens to countries who try to declare independence in Europe. They get a can of whoop-ass opened up on them.
But the Palestinians... they just have rocks and rifles and basic rockets.
The answer should be pretty obvious.
[edit on 3-1-2009 by star in a jar]
originally posted by: juiellineau
The fact that Yiddish was very popular among Jews before ww2 supports the argument that most of todays modern Jews have no genetic link to Abraham. But are in fact the offspring of the original Yiddish speakers-Khazarian. It's a valid point. I realize most modern "Jews" don't speak Yiddish today however, their parents probably did. I shouldn't have said 'most' in my last post. Some use this to point out that Israelis are not really Israelites.