History to be rewritten? Temple found dating back 9000 B.C.

Originally posted by Hanslune
However I would correct one item of your last message. Yes you do believe what you believe. I don't believe, I know, the scientific data on this subject is overwhelming.

And how many times have you "known" something to be true only to later discover something that changes that "knowledge"?
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

reply to post by cancerian42


Howdy Cancerian

To answer your question

Lots of times but in this case you're talking about a vast body of knowledge supported by multiple layers of confirming data, bloister by common sense.

I would suspect that finding out that Belgium started the Sino-Japanese war would be as equally likely as to finding out that all this information is wrong. Plus you can figure it out yourself without relying on outside experts.

What are the chances you're wrong about god?

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by cancerian42

 

Lots of times but in this case you're talking about a vast body of knowledge supported by multiple layers of confirming data, bloister by common sense.

I would suspect that finding out that Belgium started the Sino-Japanese war would be as equally likely as to finding out that all this information is wrong. Plus you can figure it out yourself without relying on outside experts.

What are the chances you're wrong about god?

This just goes to show how little you (as well as probably everyone) really do know. You think you know the facts, but I am not looking for the facts (which are not undeniably true in the sense that you use them). I am looking for wisdom and you don't appear to be. And I don't understand why you bring my beliefs, which you obviously have no clue of, into this. I have said nothing about god, so what is your point?

Howdy C

This just goes to show how little you (as well as probably everyone) really do know.

Hans: On my the appeal to " I know the truth', always dangerous to say that. Do we know everything, nope, do we know some things? Yep.

You think you know the facts, but I am not looking for the facts (which are not undeniably true in the sense that you use them).

Hans: Yes I do, in some cases things are so well known that small areas may change but the main premise is beyond attack. Ah you aren't looking for facts - you were trying to use bogus facts to support an idea - why did you do that? So this is a philsophical journey eh? Such journeys that go contra to known facts tend to end up in a fantasy world.

I am looking for wisdom and you don't appear to be.

Hans: Er, what sorta of wisdom? The sorta wisdom that lets you dismiss known facts to support an unsupportable hypothesis? That isn't really wisdom, its self-deception my friend. Why is it important to your search for wisdom to have the existence of a biblical global flood be real?


[edit on 4/1/09 by Hanslune]

Originally posted by Hanslune
Hans: On my the appeal to " I know the truth', always dangerous to say that. Do we know everything, nope, do we know some things? Yep.

Yes, I agree for the most part, I know myself and people and things(including nontangible things like thoughts) I observe exist. Anything you would like to add?

Hans: Yes I do, in some cases things are so well known that small areas may change but the main premise is beyond attack.

Oh you mean like the flat earth that is so popularly mentioned, yeah, undeniable.

Ah you aren't looking for facts - you were trying to use bogus facts to support an idea - why did you do that? So this is a philsophical journey eh? Such journeys that go contra to known facts tend to end up in a fantasy world.

Don't ignore the parentheses (the "facts" that are not undeniably true) the ones that are called facts, but later are proven wrong. No, I am not in search of these, are you? I never said my supporting info was fact, but you did (once again lessening the meaning of the word) just now. I never made any claims about the truth concerning this, I just put my opinion on what I found likely to be true out there. And yes, my life is a philosophical journey.

Hans: Er, what sorta of wisdom? The sorta wisdom that lets you dismiss known facts to support an unsupportable hypothesis? That isn't really wisdom, its self-deception my friend. Why is it important to your search for wisdom to have the existence of a biblical global flood be real?

It is not important to my search for the biblical global flood to be real, but it is important to my search to find what is real and dismiss what is not. I believe that you probably do have lots of "facts" (using the term lightly again, so don't go misquoting me) against widespread floods of ancient times that destroyed many people and began all the myths, and perhaps even a big boat that landed in the mountains. I don't see why you wouldn't believe in a simple garden that today we call Eden? Maybe you have some facts on how gardens cannot possibly exist?

Howdy C

Oh you mean like the flat earth that is so popularly mentioned, yeah, undeniable.

Hans: But note your error C, there were NO facts to support this idea, it was purely one of belief and contra to facts that became known later. It’s a poor example of what I think you were trying to make. It was never a 'fact' just a contra factual idea.

Don't ignore the parentheses (the "facts" that are not undeniably true) the ones that are called facts, but later are proven wrong.

Hans: So you think all the data on sedimentation and geology, archaeology, palynology, pollen etc etc, will individually be proven wrong? That is a body of knowledge around 150 years old and constantly verified by tens of thousands of people…that’s gonna be a tough one.

No, I am not in search of these, are you? I never said my supporting info was fact, but you did (once again lessening the meaning of the word) just now.

Hans: So you actually don’t believe that myths about regional floods means their was a biblical style global flood?

I never made any claims about the truth concerning this, I just put my opinion on what I found likely to be true out there. And yes, my life is a philosophical journey.

Hans: Excellent

It is not important to my search for the biblical global flood to be real, but it is important to my search to find what is real and dismiss what is not. I believe that you probably do have lots of "facts" (using the term lightly again, so don't go misquoting me) against widespread floods of ancient times that destroyed many people and began all the myths, and perhaps even a big boat that landed in the mountains. I don't see why you wouldn't believe in a simple garden that today we call Eden? Maybe you have some facts on how gardens cannot possibly exist?

Hans: Sure gardens can exist but what evidence do you have that this Eden existed? My speculative opinion is that its just another biblical mythical story.I cannot prove it doesn’t exist so it’s kinda up to you to prove it does. I can however prove that there was no biblical global flood. Did you look up what the bible says about the four rivers?

Originally posted by Hanslune
Hans: But note your error C, there were NO facts to support this idea, it was purely one of belief and contra to facts that became known later. It’s a poor example of what I think you were trying to make. It was never a 'fact' just a contra factual idea.

Yes, you're right, it was just an idea accepted to be true, but you get the idea.

Hans: So you think all the data on sedimentation and geology, archaeology, palynology, pollen etc etc, will individually be proven wrong? That is a body of knowledge around 150 years old and constantly verified by tens of thousands of people…that’s gonna be a tough one.

You are making assumptions again. Why do you put words in my mouth? But since you bring it up I will keep an open mind about it: perhaps they will, perhaps they won't, who knows what the future holds?

Hans: So you actually don’t believe that myths about regional floods means their was a biblical style global flood?

No, I don't believe the myths about the flood/s mean the bible's interpretation of the story is true. However I am still open to the idea of some kind of worldwide flooding that destroyed lots of people which the myths are probably based off of.

Hans: Sure gardens can exist but what evidence do you have that this Eden existed?

No evidence like I said, since it is just a story we don't even know if it's real or not, but there that place fits all the descriptions that I can find in the story and I don't see any other place that does, therefore to the best of my knowledge that could very well be the area that was written about.

My speculative opinion is that its just another biblical mythical story.I cannot prove it doesn’t exist so it’s kinda up to you to prove it does. I can however prove that there was no biblical global flood. Did you look up what the bible says about the four rivers?

Okay prove there was no biblical global flood, I like learning new things. I did look up what the bible says about the 4 rivers, btw which translation are you using?

All of those ancient massive buildings were created back when the earth was in a different frequency. People think that slaves were the only way such massive things could have been built, but I heard recently (and I totally believe this) that thousands of years ago, people were able to manipulate the frequency of things.

If you can manipulate the frequency of a 50 ton rock, you can pick it up very easily and guide it into place with your hands. After they're in place, you change the frequency back to normal "rock" weight, and it weighs 50 tons again.

It's really the only thing that makes sense for how the Pyramids and other ancient temples, etc. were built.

reply to post by coney


Howdy Coney

The magic theory is popular, unfortunately if the Egyptians could have done that they left no record of it. Oddly considering their many enemies they never seemed to have used this startling method to deal with them.

Which seems a bit odd considering what a weapon this would be.

There are scenes of Egyptians dragging with ropes statues mounted on sleds.

You may find this interesting as it has images of Ancient Egyptians moving stuff

Slaves? Sorry no slaves, craftsmen assisted by a corvee of manpower from the villages during the time of flood when little work could be done.

Okay prove there was no biblical global flood, I like learning new things. I did look up what the bible says about the 4 rivers, btw which translation are you using?

KJ but you can use any other too, as I have done below

Note the different theories of where the Pishon and Gihon flow from.

2:11 The name of the first is Pishon; it runs through 1 the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 2:12 (The gold of that land is pure; 2 pearls 3 and lapis lazuli 4 are also there). 2:13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it runs through 5 the entire land of Cush. 6 2:14 The name of the third river is Tigris; it runs along the east side of Assyria. 7 The fourth river is the Euphrates.

Netbible

10: 10: And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11: The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12: And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13: And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14: And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates

KJ


The flood myth

A Creationist view: www.jesuscreated.org...

My personal favorite

What was used to waterproof the ark? We are told that God instructed Noah to coat the ark inside and out with the naturally- occurring hydrocarbon pitch, which causes a bit of a problem since, according to Whitcomb and Morris, all oil, tar and coal deposits were formed when organic matter was buried DURING the flood.

A loooong list here from a dude named Isaak against the flood: members.shaw.ca...

You can find a rebutal to Isaak here:www.trueorigin.org...

Of note from a Scientist who is also a Christian

Does the flood story make the whole Bible less credible? Davis Young is a working geologist who also is an Evangelical Christian. He has personal doubts about some aspects of evolution, but he makes a devastating case against "Flood Geology." He writes (Christianity and the Age of the Earth, p. 163): "The maintenance of modern creationism and Flood geology not only is useless apologetically with unbelieving scientists, it is harmful. Although many who have no scientific training have been swayed by creationist arguments, the unbelieving scientist will reason that a Christianity that believes in such nonsense must be a religion not worthy of his interest...Modern creationism in this sense is apologetically and evangelistically ineffective. It could even be a hindrance to the gospel. "Another possible danger is that in presenting the gospel to the lost and in defending God's truth we ourselves will seem to be false. It is time for Christian people to recognize that the defense of this modern, young-Earth, Flood-geology creationism is simply not truthful. It is simply not in accord with the facts that God has given. Creationism must be abandoned by Christians before harm is done...." [From: [email protected] (William H. Jefferys) See also Young, 1988]

In other words defending the flood myth makes Christians look a bit 'unintelligent' and in denial.

reply to post by Hanslune


Well you can lump anyone who believes in a flood "Christian" but numerous "cultures" across the world have oral or written stories of a great flood. Those cultures don't have anything to do with Christianity and in same cases were pre-Scripture or did not have access to it.

reply to post by jjkenobi

Well you can lump anyone who believes in a flood "Christian" but numerous "cultures" across the world have oral or written stories of a great flood. Those cultures don't have anything to do with Christianity and in same cases were pre-Scripture or did not have access to it.

Many cultures have myths have about different types of floods - but obviously someone survives. Belief in the "creationism flood myth vs a vast scientific conspiracy" is mainly a Christian event. Although their are similar believers in other relgions (Turkey, Yahya) the main push is from American Christians.

However we do seem to moving away from the OP and I certainly don't want to start yet another discussion on the failures of creationism. There is a forum here on ATS for that.

[edit on 5/1/09 by Hanslune]

reply to post by Hanslune


Hans, hope you don't mind if I step in here a minute.

I'm not saying it's true, but it seems to me that if one is going to use the Biblical Flood as evidence then they should also use the believed timeline of the peoples (Hebrews) involved.

According to the Jewish calendar Adam and Eve lived c. 3760 BC, putting the Great Flood in c. 2100 BC. Knowing that the blblical story is a retelling of the Atrahasis/Ziusudra/Utnapishtim flood stories and what they describe as cities existing before and after the flood, that puts the event at some point between 2750 BC and 2900 BC. So in either case it is believed to have happened in the 3rd millenium BC. Anything else has no basis whatsoever, other than what someone wants to be true.

cormac

reply to post by cormac mac airt


Thanks Cormac

So [edited to add] [a discredited theory that] a world destroying flood between 2750 - 2900 BCE. Hmmmm, that's just before writing is used by the Sumerians. I wonder how they breed so fast to get all those workers for Pharoahs? LOL

Basing an idea on a long since discredited idea gets you extactly nowhere. It is interesting to watch these ideas come up and the reasoning behind them.

[edit on 5/1/09 by Hanslune]

[edit on 5/1/09 by Hanslune]

Okay, maybe I wasn't specific enough. I don't believe, and there is no evidence the Sumerians/Akkiadians/Babylonians were talking about a GLOBAL FLOOD, however there is evidence that a rather large flood happened in and around Shuruppak in the 3rd millenium. Same general time frame as the Bible.

Point being, taking a flood story out of context/time and associating it with other flood stories simply because someone wants to prove the GREAT FLOOD happened is meaningless.

cormac

reply to post by cormac mac airt

Okay, maybe I wasn't specific enough. I don't believe, and there is no evidence the Sumerians/Akkiadians/Babylonians were talking about a GLOBAL FLOOD, however there is evidence that a rather large flood happened in and around Shuruppak in the 3rd millenium.

Hans: Yeah I wrote my post inaccurately. I have edited it now. Yes there was a heck of a regional flood but certainly no Global, LOL

Same general time frame as the Bible.

Point being, taking a flood story out of context/time and associating it with other flood stories simply because someone wants to prove the GREAT FLOOD happened is meaningless.

Hans: But of course

Originally posted by Hanslune
Note the different theories of where the Pishon and Gihon flow from.

They use the Greek name Ethiopia to mean the Hebrew Cush. I don't see the difference in the Pishon.