Brief history lesson for the ongoing current events happening in Gaza

Also in the top there is acknowledgment that Palestine - was a name given by Romans!!!True. But they appeared in the area only in 200BC. When last Philistine city was destroyed and its population changed for more then century.

They were exiled from the cities, or the cities were distroied but not eliminated as a peple.
It is mentioned above in Britanica that they were around at the time of King Solomon.

And the name was changed to Palestine by Romans only in the 1AD. It is also elegantly not noticed.

The name Philistines was translated in to Palestina, it had to have a latin name, I don;t get what you have against the translation or the timing.

And the main thing - since author also does not think that the name alone is not enough for claims - there is no proof that it is the same population.

It was the largest population in the area, they wage war with Egipt, they constantly attacked Israely settlements.Where did it all go

No where.

Exactly, see how it feets, like a glove.

By the way - if you are correct and Palestinians now are really descendent's of ancient Philistine, why there was no unique national identity for more then 3 thousand years?

Religion, change of customs due to the Islamic religion that is strict.
Even so ,Where do you want them to have a museum? How are people
able to focus on culture when there is constant war?

A bunch of people were around there all the time, the name and the fact that the same people were there until the jews came back is enough to state that many palestinians have roots there.They were large in numbers, due to conflicts along history line sufering defeat after defeat today they number just a few milions.

Originally posted by Founding
reply to post by pepsi78

 

I like how you use a quote with the words some and imply that it proves all your points.

Why don't you look around the link I posed some more. You will find that both jews and arabs share a genetic link with the ancient population of Israel.

So far I have gave you information from credible sources that state directly that philistines are the palestinians today and that they were around the roman empire, around the bizantine empire around king solomon.Some because I don't really know the exact numbers, I can't give you a fixed number like 122131254, some are emigrants and so on, people migrate you know, move to places , go to other nations and integrate.
I can state the same" some jews are not from there and some are"
Back at you.



[edit on 2-1-2009 by pepsi78]

reply to post by pepsi78


Ugh why put words in my mouth....

Again, I will tell you look at the genetic evidence in the wiki article. Also, I don't see the point of proving a link between philistines and the arabs living in palestine today...

reply to post by Founding

Your point is without logic.All civilisations come from what today is present Iraq, It's the start of civililisations maybe you are an arab without knowing it.Arabs were not arabs in the begining.No one was.

reply to post by pepsi78


This will be last post with you, because your train of thought is pathetic. My point was that your points are without logic and prove nothing. The genetic evidence states that both jews and arabs have a genetic link to ancient isreal. So, proving that arabs living in israel are the modern day decedents of philistines does not prove anything or change anything. The only intent I can see for your rambling is a psychological attack on jews.

First of all.

www.frontpagemag.com...

People in the Arabic world have forgotten who they are. The people of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and even some "Palestinians," are not Arabs at all. Instead, they are descendents of very ancient peoples, with different cultural and ethnic origins.
Militant Arabs invaded these lands in the 7th century A.D. and forced "Arabic" culture on their ancestors. Mohammad’s new religion of Islam sought world dominion through coerced unity, crushing cultural diversity. But this doesn’t change the original history of the region and its inhabitants’ true, non-Arab ethnic identity.

Second there is no connection betwen jewish and arabs.
They came in difrent times, the Israelies came after a short while.
If they mixed culture that is a whole diferent thing.
The area is full of empires invading so Palestinians a Jewish alike may have sufered influences along the way.Jewish text look very similar to Arabic texts because it's just influence, does that make the Jews Arabs? My opinion is no.


Philistines were not jews so stop trying to point out such aberations.
History tell that there are two groups that have nothing in commun, the philistines and israelits.


If you like to take it as were all the same anyway before culture then you got a point.

psychological attack on jews

If I were to do that then I would not admit to them being there from long ago.I pity the Palestinians and that is all.


[edit on 2-1-2009 by pepsi78]

Since i get certain feeling that time line is needed - here is currently accepted historical timeline:
Canaanites - 3000bc - BC
Philistines - 1120 bc (note - after Cnaanintes) - 300bc
Israelites - 1000bc - 130 ad.
(Assyrians,Babylonians,Persians,Greeks - not important for now) 700-200bc
Roman presence - 100bc - 660 ad.
And ctr.
Here is what wiki says

In 604 BCE, when Assyrian troops commanded by the Babylonian empire carried off significant numbers of the population into slavery, the distinctly Philistine character of the coastal cities dwindled away,[16][18] and the history of the Philistine people effectively ended.[

If it is true or not, there is no mention of anything linked to Philistine culture or identity after that. And it is a fact. There is Greece, but it is not the same Greeks. There is Italy - but it is not same people. And hundreds of similar examples. And yet Philistines - that actually ruled over 1/10th of area (grey area)
en.wikipedia.org...:Levant_830.svg
are the same people.
And the reasons are:
a) Name
b) People did not just disappear.
But (a) was given to the whole area only in 1st century AD - 400 years after end of Philistine history. And this name came in place of another name as a punishment for a revolt, not for any other reason.
And (b) is even more absurd. Canaanites were there before Philistines or Israelis. They could not disappear. So they are real Palestinians? Ow, wait - there were people before them. They are native population? Or people before them? Or those before them? We stop where it is politically convenient to stop, i think. Are all people who live now in England/Scotland/Wales actually Gaels/Picts? According to this logic native people all over the globe hide behind facade of its conquerors.
If person was born as a Swiss (just an example) but Switzerland was conquered and ruined by evil Orcs (or good Elves) and distant descendants of his will not remember culture,tradition,history,language of Swiss but that of Elves (or Orcs) and will relate them self as Orcs (or Elves) - what will make those people Swiss? Politics?
And this kind of conquests and massacres happened so many times since 1200 bc that it is simply insane idea to stick ,for political causes ,totally unrelated (for centuries at least) ancient ethnic story.
And as for only millions remain now from most important and largest groups nonsense - look at the map. Philistines controlled actually pretty small area. It was not most numerous group simply because it disappeared from the area (in the same conditions of constant warfare and turmoil) much earlier then its local rivals. And unlike its rivals it disappeared from pages of history too.

If it is true or not, there is no mention of anything linked to Philistine culture or identity after that. And it is a fact. There is Greece, but it is not the same Greeks. There is Italy - but it is not same people. And hundreds of similar examples. And yet Philistines - that actually ruled over 1/10th of area (grey area)

It's very true, most of them perished away, If they were able to go to Egypt and pick a fight with Egypt then they were a force to be recon with.
Today there are 1 milion in the half in Gaza and about 2 milion in the West Bank.There are not alot of palestinians I guess.

And (b) is even more absurd. Canaanites were there before Philistines or Israelis. They could not disappear. So they are real Palestinians?

Cannianites are refered to as all the population of the area until the end of the bronze age.

Ow, wait - there were people before them. They are native population? Or people before them? Or those before them? We stop where it is politically convenient to stop, i think. Are all people who live now in England/Scotland/Wales actually Gaels/Picts? According to this logic native people all over the globe hide behind facade of its conquerors.

Let's face it no one is native , not even the North Americans are native, they are eschimo people, and eschimo people migrated when Alaska and Rusia was still linked by ice, so they came from Siberia and those living in Siberia came from lower europe, and those from Europe came from the Middle east and so on.

And as for only millions remain now from most important and largest groups nonsense - look at the map. Philistines controlled actually pretty small area. It was not most numerous group simply because it disappeared from the area (in the same conditions of constant warfare and turmoil) much earlier then its local rivals.

Well they were many and then they were a few, the Jews left too, or they were forced in to exile a few times but they still were around, but one thing is for sure, and I'm not denying the jews have heritage there, they were around just like the jews were in that area.

And unlike its rivals it disappeared from pages of history too.

www.britannica.com...

Philistines were able (c. 1050) to occupy part of the Judaean hill country. They were finally defeated by the Israelite king David (10th century), and thereafter their history was that of individual cities rather than of a people. After the division of Judah and Israel (10th century), the Philistines regained their independence and often engaged in border battles with those kingdoms.

So as you can see they were around at the time king David ruled and regained independence.


Further on and as for art and culture.

The Philistines long held a monopoly on smithing iron, a skill probably acquired in Anatolia. At sites occupied by the Philistines at an early period, a distinctive type of pottery, a variety of the 13th-century Mycenaean styles, has been found.

Then came Romans then Came the Turkish and they were all forced to live under the rule of this two empires without an identity and then came WW2

It's hard to swalow that some people belong there and have even more rights than others since they were the first , as few as they remain today.
People did not have a problem with the Jews when they came back.What gave Israel the right to be since they were on that land when they came back? Instead of building a mixed state Israel decided to build it's own and since in history they had picked up fights with eachoter over the same land, today they are doing it again.


The best hope for a pozitive outcome is a mixed state where everything is 50% 50%




[edit on 2-1-2009 by pepsi78]

It is not hard to swollow that there were indeed Philistine people, with tradition,culture and all that is needed for self-definition.
They had nothing in common with current Palestinians exept similar name.
It is also not hard to swollow that there are now Palestinian people with tradition ,culture and all that is needed for self definition.
Just that they have nothing in common with ancient Philistines. Exept name given to larger geographical area by Romans after Philistines were long gone and long before first attempt to self-determination by Arabs living in British colony of Palestine was made.
But between disspaearence of the first and birth of a second nation there is 3 thousnd year gap without anything filling it! Nothing connects between two groups as far as nations are considered. 3000 years of silence.
During which those two totally different ethnic groops:
not only had nothing in common
but also did not exist.


[edit on 2-1-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]

Just that they have nothing in common with ancient Philistines.
Exept name given to larger geographical area by Romans after Philistines were long gone and long before first attempt to self-determination by Arabs living in British colony of Palestine was made.

I guess you are wrong.
Long gone? Talks about same group from atiqity that lost and regained independance in the 10th century I guess you are wrong.
Don't refuse the facts.

Philistines were able (c. 1050) to occupy part of the Judaean hill country. They were finally defeated by the Israelite king David (10th century), and thereafter their history was that of individual cities rather than of a people. After the division of Judah and Israel (10th century), the Philistines regained their independence and often engaged in border battles with those kingdoms.

And art dating to the 13th century

The Philistines long held a monopoly on smithing iron, a skill probably acquired in Anatolia. At sites occupied by the Philistines at an early period, a distinctive type of pottery, a variety of the 13th-century Mycenaean styles, has been found.

Guess you are totaly wrong.
I mean one can have an opinion but when it's right there in front of you.
That is ignorant.

You lose dude, deal with it.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by pepsi78]

reply to post by pepsi78


I think that i understand why there is a problem to get each others point. 10th century(bc) that you speak of is 1000 years bc. 1000 years before year 0. 3009 years before today (plus minus). 13th century is 1300 years bc 1300 years before year 0. 3309 years earlier then today. So pottery is more ancient then report of retaking of lost territory for example. When i say that there is nothing for 3000 years i mean that since 600 bc (-600 if it is easier) there is nothing until 1930s ad (1930+). If you feel that 2530 years of historic silence is more precise - ok. Still a long time.
And if was not source of problem - then tell me what it is? I will edit the post.
Edit:
I certainly lost - the idea what you are talking about. I do not argue that there was Philistine nation. Long ago. 3000 years ago. (ok,2530). You provided citations and links that show that indeed there was Philistine nation and it did some noticable things. 3000 years ago. And?

[edit on 2-1-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
It is not hard to swollow that there were indeed Philistine people, with tradition,culture and all that is needed for self-definition.
They had nothing in common with current Palestinians exept similar name.
It is also not hard to swollow that there are now Palestinian people with tradition ,culture and all that is needed for self definition.
Just that they have nothing in common with ancient Philistines. Exept name given to larger geographical area by Romans after Philistines were long gone and long before first attempt to self-determination by Arabs living in British colony of Palestine was made.
But between disspaearence of the first and birth of a second nation there is 3 thousnd year gap without anything filling it! Nothing connects between two groups as far as nations are considered. 3000 years of silence.
During which those two totally different ethnic groops:
not only had nothing in common
but also did not exist.

So show me where it states that they all perish, on the contrary it sayis that they gain independance.


en.wikipedia.org...
This guy is a historian, and his clame is the same as mine.

American historian Bernard Lewis writes:

Palestinians, like most other Arabic-speakers today commonly called Arabs, are said to combine ancestries from those who have come to settle their respective regions throughout history and the pre-existing ancient inhabitants; a matter on which genetic evidence described below has begun to shed some light.[63]


"Clearly, in Palestine as elsewhere in the Middle East, the modern inhabitants include among their ancestors those who lived in the country in antiquity. Equally obviously, the demographic mix was greatly modified over the centuries by migration, deportation, immigration, and settlement. This was particularly true in Palestine..."[64]

[edit on 2-1-2009 by pepsi78]

I decided to do some research myself. Many here forget a few things:
1) We all reside on the same damned planet.
2) The more things change, the more they stay the same.
3) These wars have been going on since history has been written
4) You would think we would ALL learn and move on.

I decided to look at research text that was "older". in an effort to obtain (untainted by recent events) information.

THE OUTLINE OF HISTORY Part II by H.G. Wells.

www.ibiblio.org...

Feel free to read it. I saw this in there as well which is just a snippet.

Near Medina was a castle of Jews, against whom Muhammad was already incensed because of their disrespect or his theology. They had shown a disposition to side with the probable victor in this last struggle, and Muhammad now fell upon- them, slew all the men, nine hundred of them, and enslaved the women and children. Possibly many of their late allies were among the bidders for these slaves. Never again after this quaint failure did Mecca make an effective rally against Muhammad, and one by one its leading men came over to his side.

Thereafter his power extended, there were battles, treacheries, massacres; but on the whole he prevailed, until he was master of all Arabia; and when he was master of all Arabia in 632, at the age of sixty-two, he died.

Throughout the concluding eleven years of his life after the Hegira, there is little to distinguish the general conduct of Muhammad from that of any other welder of peoples into a monarchy. The chief difference is his use of a religion of his own creation as his cement. He was diplomatic, treacherous, ruthless, or compromising as the occasion required and as any other Arab king might have been in his place; and there was singularly little spirituality in his kingship. Nor was his domestic life power and freedom one of exceptional edification. Until the death of Kadija, when he was fifty, he seems to have been the honest husband of one wife; but then, as many men do in their declining years, he developed a disagreeably strong interest in women.

These are salient facts in these last eleven years of Muhammad's career. Because he, too, founded a great religion, there are those who write of this evidently lustful and rather shifty leader as though he were a man to put beside Jesus of Nazareth or Gautama or Mani. But it is surely manifest that he was a being of a commoner clay; he was vain egotistical, tyrannous, and a self-deceiver; and it would throw all our history out of proportion if, out of an insincere deference to the possible Moslem reader, we were to present him in any other light.

Religion to me has to be one of Mankinds worst inventions. If we were to stop repeating the same stupid mistakes we have been doing since we bagan walking upright, things would be a whole lot better.

So, stop with this "It's mine!" nonsense. It belongs to the human race which we are ALL a part of. Work together and stop being a Pawn to governments who obtain more power and are getting richer.

EDIT: Spelling

[edit on 7-1-2009 by NYCMedic]

Jews and Muslims have been in the holy land for pretty much the entire history of their respective religions. Its a myth that Jews werent there in large numbers until 1948 or that they "returned after WW2", they were always in the area just like Arabs. The number did has fluctuated though.

The only time I can think that The Jews weren't in the holy land was Egyptian captivity. Babylonians put them in captivity which was 60 years long. And when the romans/byzantines banned Jews from the land until 500 AD when The arabs lead by Omar the Great conquered Palestine.

Omar actually let Jews return by overthrowing the ban.